One thing that might be why LFS'ers have no problem with bashing other 'sims'.

Most ISI titles are released like any other game. You install it, and the first thing you see is a flashy composited intro movie, a masturbation of epic proportions that shows how great their game is. I loved to watch the GTR2 intro movie, flashing quotes from 'magazines' (everybody knows anyone can launch an online mag and make it tell anything these days) about how it is the most advanced crappity crap crap ever made, the next step in evolution of driving, the missing link between the ape and man, etc.

THAT way to make software is what draws the LFS crowd to bash other sims. Scavier, even if they do expose the awards they win in mags on their site, do not shove their greatness and their completlely miraculous skills at making software down your throat. You just get a game that works well. No flare, just delivered goods.

This is just one of the numerous things that makes LFS'ers more prone to bash other titles. When a developer makes a claim, and that claim is not quite holding to the test, here come the bashes. LFS doesn't make any claims. The RACERS make the claims (based on their experience).

So in retrospective:
LFS racers are flamed for their claims about the game.
Other games are flamed by LFS'ers for their claims.
LFS racers get flamed by other racers for flaming their games.
What's missing? No one flames the other racers that much because their flames are usually not based on any solid flaws LFS has. More like "LFS sux m4 bA11s" flames

I think the only person I saw actually bring valid points up against LFS was Richard Towler.

10/10 for NARD!

So am I to assume that everyone here doesn't notice all the little flaws with LFS that stick out like a sore thumb to me? One would be the complete lack of orginization with reguards to setups. Can't the game provide folders based on track name in which to store relavent setups? Personally I can't stand having all my setups for a car shown to me at all times. If only one is relavent to a track I only want to see that one. If I think one from a different track will work I will copy it over. It will get changed to suit the "new" track, so it isn't like I'll have 10 copies of one setup.

Another issue is how the online pick-up races work. I have not come across a server yet that actually has practice, qualifying, and race session. All of them that I have seen are in a constant loop of running 5-10 lap races. Some of us like to work on setups before races, since we haven't spent all day every day for the last 3 years perfecting them Hard to do that though when you jump on a server and find out it is in the middle of a race. Which is my next point. Why does the game even allow people to actually join the race after it has started? Joining the server is fine, but there is no need for people to join the actual race once it has started...they have no hope of winning.

How about the cars? Could we work on making the cars more accessable as far as setup options? The "street" cars in LFS have more setup options that most race cars. Why don't we limit them to options that are reasonable for the types of cars they are? Or, if they aren't street cars, make them look much more like the full on race cars they are. The GTR cars seem fairly tame, but maybe that is just because the default setups are....a random grouping of values.

I could go on but there is no need to. None of this stuff is major, but stuff that is present in the "lower level" games that are "mainstream" (I never thought there could be a niche market INSIDE of a niche market). None of these issues, that I preseave, keep me from enjoying LFS but they do make me wonder. LFS is not "years ahead" of the other games, it merely have features that the others do not. One feature that LFS doesn't have that I'd like is driver swapping. I know of one game in which it can be done. To me that is about as big of a deal as the auto skin download...which seems to be planned for another game.

Jason

Quote from kart38 :

So am I to assume that everyone here doesn't notice all the little flaws with LFS that stick out like a sore thumb to me? One would be the complete lack of orginization with reguards to setups. Can't the game provide folders based on track name in which to store relavent setups? Personally I can't stand having all my setups for a car shown to me at all times. If only one is relavent to a track I only want to see that one. If I think one from a different track will work I will copy it over. It will get changed to suit the "new" track, so it isn't like I'll have 10 copies of one setup.

has been discussed over and over on the improvements suggestions forum and im sure its somewhere on scawens list

Quote :

Another issue is how the online pick-up races work. I have not come across a server yet that actually has practice, qualifying, and race session. All of them that I have seen are in a constant loop of running 5-10 lap races. Some of us like to work on setups before races, since we haven't spent all day every day for the last 3 years perfecting them Hard to do that though when you jump on a server and find out it is in the middle of a race.

thats more a thing about how most of the players on that server want it ... you can always vote for a qualifying after the race

Quote :

Which is my next point. Why does the game even allow people to actually join the race after it has started? Joining the server is fine, but there is no need for people to join the actual race once it has started...they have no hope of winning.

server admins can disable mid race join if they like

Quote :

How about the cars? Could we work on making the cars more accessable as far as setup options? The "street" cars in LFS have more setup options that most race cars. Why don't we limit them to options that are reasonable for the types of cars they are? Or, if they aren't street cars, make them look much more like the full on race cars they are. The GTR cars seem fairly tame, but maybe that is just because the default setups are....a random grouping of values.

another thing thats been discussed endlessly ... setup options have already been reduced since s1 and will likely get reduced even further (personally im against it and would like to at least have a physics playground setup mode)

Quote :

One feature that LFS doesn't have that I'd like is driver swapping. I know of one game in which it can be done. To me that is about as big of a deal as the auto skin download...which seems to be planned for another game.

lfs allready supports driver swaps via the "T" button on the connectionslist

Well, look at it this way: prac + quali + race = a lot of time
Join midrace = prace
First race = quali
Second race = race
= lot of time, same result.
If you're willing to spend time in doing a prac and quali, why not join midrace..

I'd get very, very annoyed with having prac + quali before a pickup race, it's a waste of time. I cringe every time someone votes for quali for a 5 lap pickup race, wtf! What is the point of spending 15+ mins for something you can do in < 10 mins in a single race :S Pickup races are pickup races, because you go on the server and race, IMO

If you want to list LFS' shortcomings (so far), feel free to include sounds, setup mgt, aerodynamics, tyre physics, drivetrains, setup options, weather, debris, collisions etc.

All of the above will no doubt be addressed eventually, even if that's quite far down the line. If they had been addressed today, LFS would be "years ahead", it's not, I agree, but only because of the speed of development, not techniques. Feel free to disagree

....and the plot thinnens.

I realise this is a late reply, but there goes...

@kart38: The thing is, ALL of the stuff you mentioned has been pounded on countless times in the "Improvement Suggestions" forum, so it's nothing new. The problem is just that one coder can only do so much, and even though it is definitely on his list of things to do, there are simply more pressing issues to be done first, even though the reasons for some priority decisions might not be clear to the public.

However, what you can be sure of is, that it WILL be improved in the future, unlike some other games where you might get a patch if the devs can be bothered enough, or in some cases the "patch" is a full price version 2 with a different cover and 1-2 novelty features.

Yes, there are some flaws in LFS, but they are 1) very minor compared to the problems the competitors have and 2) guaranteed to be fixed at some point of time. And all that for the 24£ I paid over the last three years.

Quote from Shotglass :

who are you and what did you do with ajp ?

Is this back to the old nK threads? I only ever really thought the physics, FF and the tracks detail (definatley not layout) were potentially very good. I know it was a stark contrast from LFSs clinical feel to a big chuncky mechanical thing and that was a concept I loved. The rest wasn't actually that sloppy except the framerates were nothing like what was claimed, the menus didn't work and for a 'Professional Online Racing Simulator' the fact the lobby didn't work and the net code was crap didn't really help. Less said about the sounds the better. I still feel though that it was unfairly bashed and then of course Kunos ran away and that was the end of that it really needant have been but quite frankly he should still be quitely working on it at his own pace without a fixed release date.

I totally agree with Nard I hate hype and that is one thing that I do think LFS gets so right.

Quote from kart38 :

Can't the game provide folders based on track name in which to store relavent setups?

I agree there, this is true, sometimes I'd like a better setup management, especially some way to show folder trees inside of LFS. let's both go make the suggestion, usually when it's a valid suggestion, Scawen puts it in a couple patches down the road. But also look at it this way, Windows provides you with an image/music/video file manager. But most people will just deal with their file management themselves rather than use the premade ones because sometimes, the premade doesn't allow you to do some more advanced things.

Quote :

Another issue is how the online pick-up races work. I have not come across a server yet that actually has practice, qualifying, and race session. All of them that I have seen are in a constant loop of running 5-10 lap races.

Well, pick up races are by definition quick matches. Don't expect endurance races to happen every day of the week with 60 minutes quals and practices. Here's how I see those kind of servers. I practice offline, and work my setups offline. Then I get online on empty servers (where you can usually set practice and qualif sessions to your needs) and work on my lap times and line finding. THEN I go do pick up races. See those races as events where you need to have practiced and worked your setups BEFORE you go race there. The idea is to get fast paced races with as few downtimes as possible.

Quote :

Why does the game even allow people to actually join the race after it has started? Joining the server is fine, but there is no need for people to join the actual race once it has started...they have no hope of winning.

Simple...would you want to join a server and find out you need to wait 15 laps of 2 minutes until you can actually join the race? That's half an hour until you can join...I can't see why this is a flaw rather than a strenght.

Quote :

How about the cars? Could we work on making the cars more accessable as far as setup options? The "street" cars in LFS have more setup options that most race cars.

That is also a somewhat valid point, but that's a grey zone. Road cars don't have more options that's for sure (no downforce adjustment and a few others) but you do have options that you'd usually find only on upgraded parts. All I see there is giving racers cars that seemingly have some upgraded race parts (like adjustable camber and suspensions). I personally completely love LFS' setup interface, most of my personal setups have independent settings for each axle and tire. I refined my tire setup over hundreds of laps to find the best balance for ONE race last week.

I do know there are little things that bug me and other people in LFS, but in comparision with thing I don't like in other games, they barely classify as flaws.

Quote from kart38 :

LFS is not "years ahead" of the other games, it merely have features that the others do not. One feature that LFS doesn't have that I'd like is driver swapping.

lol... the game your talking about did copy lfs original idea. the whole game itself is a substandard copy of lfs based on ,regurgitated over and over, ancient engine with the added "feature" of having no-content and relying on users to make it or rape it from other games. they call that modding.
LFS has driver swapping for ages, and as far as i can tell it was the first sim to have it.

I'd just like to point out that folders aren't necessary for efficient in-game setup management. The file name alone can be used to distinguish cars and tracks. Folders are not the magical solution to all setup mgt issues we have atm.

Quote from KiDCoDEa :

lol... the game your talking about did copy lfs original idea. this sim has driver swapping for ages. and as far as i can tell it was the first sim to have it.

To my knowledge N2003 was actually the first sim where it was done but that was a rather crude non-supported system which involved killing the program...

Quote from NotAnIllusion :

I'd just like to point out that folders aren't necessary for efficient in-game setup management. The file name alone can be used to distinguish cars and tracks. Folders are not the magical solution to all setup mgt issues we have atm.

I find folders really annoying I'd like other ways of distinguishing sets like maybe being able to highlight the better sets in different colours and add my own notes to them.

This has turned into the MOST pointless thread in the world. its all down to Inderviduals opinions. I love lfs for its realism BUT i can also say it sometimes annoys me just because of some of the people who use the game (i.e wreckers and people with bad attitude) As much as i like playing this game/sim (whatever you call it) it just depends what kind of a mood im in. I havent really played the other games but im pretty sure i could have just as much fun playing them as i do playing this. It is all just what you look for in a game and i dont think slating other games or people as ive seen you lot do on here already is going to help attract people to this game if you carry on like this all that will end up happening is the lfs community spliting into two or three groups (Which as far as i can see has already started happening)

Quote from tombarlin :

..its all down to Inderviduals opinions.

What is all down to individuals' opinions? The thread?

No the thread start as a simple question now its just people slaggin other games and other game users off its stupid

Quote from tombarlin :

No the thread start as a simple question now its just people slaggin other games and other game users off its stupid

Perhaps some of it is stupid, but some of it is a normal reaction to a situation after reasonable consideration. Referring to topic participants as "you lot" shows that you haven't read the whole topic.

Thing is, any discussion has to evolve and diverge from the original topic, or it gets boring fast. That rule applies to forum threads as well as real life discussions. Ever try to talk about your favorite race sim to a girl at the bar for 2 hours?

Quote from Nard :

Ever try to talk about your favorite race sim to a girl at the bar for 2 hours?

just because shes bored doesnt mean i am

Quote from Shotglass :

just because shes bored doesnt mean i am

Exactly...What I DO know is that I have sat for 2 hours listening to what dress she's going to wear the next day, with all the details please. Luckily I had a beer in my hand

Quote from Nard :

Ever try to talk about your favorite race sim to a girl at the bar for 2 hours?

After 5 mins, in a desperate attempt to not fall asleep, and to keep sounding interested, my friend Karo asked... "so, your LFS car... what colour is it, then?"

Quote from SamH :

R2P meets the shortfalls (skins being just one example) in the functionality in other race sims that just aren't ongoing issues in LFS.

Quote from Becky Rose :

If anything LFS shares more in common with Everquest and World of Warcraft than it does other driving games.

Off topic:

omg, please don't mention the "E" and "W" words! I spent 5 years on the "E" word and 2 on the "W" word! Does that mean I'm going to make LFS the "L" word after a few years playing it?


/rocks back and forth in the corner of the room mumbling. :nut:

:feedtroll

I have driven "real" cars on "real" tracks, and IMO, nothing comes close to portraying that feeling than LFS does.

One mans meat is another mans poison, I would certainly question anyones credentials that say rF is in ANYWAY a more realistic representation of real life motorsport than LFS is

EDIT: For historical reference purposes it should be noted my reply here was in response to a page long tirade from Tim directed squarely at me, which he has subsequently removed.


I could argue every single point you made, but we'd be here all day.

As i've already said I dont like you or your attitude, your dismissive of everything that isn't worshipping you and I dont worship you. I have my own goals and aims, and they dont match yours. This is why we couldn't agree to work together.

The reason why I dont like you, has been your attitude throughout. This latest post just gives a public example of why I decided not to help you support LFS.

So foxtrot oscar, nothing you say, no matter how spiteful and frankly, incorrect, will change my mind.

I'm still not going to help you. Now everyone else knows why.