Just in racing common philosophy was until the late 60s to reduce aero drag at any cost, hence the 'cigar' shape of GPLs cars.
Just in racing common philosophy was until the late 60s to reduce aero drag at any cost, hence the 'cigar' shape of GPLs cars.
I think that sums up how I feel perfectly! I would often be sweating and exhausted at the end of a GPL race, it was so intense. I don't get that feeling with LFS, however I do enjoy the close racing...
Maybe you should re-read both of our posts and decide who tried to answer the question and offered some freindly advice about how certain topics can be viewed and who really has the bug up their ass and wants to supress people expressing their opinions?
Merry Christmas.
Maxim
Can you imagine the future?.... LFS will live. GPL wont..... The paradigm is been changing. Take it easy.
Yes, that is precisely what they're doing. It used to be that way in LFS, with totally unrealistic setups and stuff. It's better now, and guess what... They're not impossibly fast anymore.
The point is, you should not push the SIM to its limits, you should push the CAR to its limits... Pushing the sim to its limits means you're cheating real life physics, which was my point.
If you want to see a great example of a realistic sim with physics holes the size of manhattan, check out RBR.
Good point.
I wouldn't be so sure seeing as GPL is still very much alive with loads still to come and no forseable replacement. I think they've both got very long life expectancies still (I think GPL is going to get a major overhall of everything seeing as iRacing cannot stop people doing it).
@TagForce - you explained why LFS no longer has aliens because of the removal of unrealistic setup options? Well I say virtually all the fastest drivers in LFS are playing with the enormous loop holes in the physics, button shifting, flat shifting, and driving with locked diffs, the only RL racer of any significance to have done this was Mark Donnuhe but then again he was driving with 1100bhp on bumpy tracks without much grip so traction really was an issue, I think this highlights an enormous flaw somewhere in LFS's physics.
I didn't say LFS was perfect... It's just that there were bigger problems that got solved, and the field is now closer as a result of that... And using certain non-setup related settings doesn't qualify as a physics loophole. But that's besides the point. One of the things that DOES still cause big differences is the suspension damage model. It's still possible to jump kerbs unrealistically, and that is a problem.
I am not so sure that is true is it? Were there not some high profile (in the SIM community anyway) legal proceedings taken by iracing against individuals that were modifying the gpl.exe?
In theory as time goes by all serious attempts to model car physics will tend to come together so there should be little between GTR8, rfacter 5, iracing, LFS3 or whatever is about then. Should they choose to model the same cars they should drive almost exactly the same shouldn't they? Eventually someone will mod 1967 F1 cars into one of the other physics engines and the shouts will go up that it isn't as realistic as GPL. The point I was trying to make in my first post is that after a certain level of realism is reached, very few, if any people here can assess the reality of which is the better SIM in terms of the physics. In the end you will drive one or the other or both because of the pleasure they give you, not because one is better than the other.
As it stands there is no overlap between LFS and GPL so a comparison is impossible and preferences to either are not based on which is the better of the two.
As an aside, I apologise the Racedoctor if my post appears to acuse him of trolling. I meant only to warn him of the dangers of these types of threads.
Maxim
I still don't see what the hell that has to do with 'aliens' pushing the sim to its limits is pushing the car to its limits, this is what seperates the really fast drivers from the average drivers. I really doubt most top racing teams and drivers, both real and virtual are where they are by just standard thinking.
Personally I don't like running with some of teh really bad stuff on LFS setups as it really ruins the handling, but I don't hold that against people and I certainly don't think its cheating.
That is quite true. The GPLmods Team is working on some major updates to GPL as we know it. These updates are not new mods.
FYI, iRacing never tried to stop the GPLmods team from patching the gpl.exe and, when asked by us, they said we could continue working with GPL at will. Their focus was/is on NR2003.exe, NOT in gpl.exe.
Where did I say it was cheating? Chill, m8.
It is just a fact that in games (LFS included, although atm to a lesser extend) that simulate real cars, it's the bugs in the physics system that make people ultra-fast. Sure there'll be faster and slower drivers, just as there are in real world racing. I never denied that. Just that the playing field will be more level.
Hello Arturo Pereira, welcome to this Forum 
, how do you, as a long time GPLer think about LFS? Do you drive it regularly too or only GPL?
, how do you, as a long time GPLer think about LFS? Do you drive it regularly too or only GPL?no fast drivers are fast drivers, the 'bugs' do not make them fast
There's no doubt they are fast drivers. Guys like Greger Huttu have my utmost respect for their abilities.
This whole thing got blown way out of proportion... I urge you to take a look at some RBR World Records to see an exaggerated example of what I was talking about (if you call that realistic driving I'll have to call you
illepall, but I know you won't).In the end, I like LFS for it's realistic physics, and I like GPL for the exact same thing, and I love NR2003S for both realistic physics and oval racing.
I haven't watched any RBR wr replays but I guess the 'abuse' is driving it right on the limit clipping banks etc. Well of course you'd do that IRL if you only had to drive one stage at a time, knew the stage back to front and had a reset button.
Well that's the difference between real and sim racing.
We're playing a sim/game. We will always take more risks, always try weirder but unsafe setups, always push the driving to the limit, or past it, than in real life racing. We can just crash our car 100 times until we manage to make that world record. In real racing, you can't afford that. That's why really fast RACERS are the ones that are technically excellent. They can keep the car on the limit without making many mistakes. World record drivers are fast drivers, but they'll try a million times just to get that record, whatever the price is, be it spending a month trying, crashing ten thousand times, etc.
You can't deny we are playing a game, and as long as the simulation isn't a 100% representation of reality (physics-wise mostly), anything goes. The ultra-fast drivers are just people that push what they are given to the limit, but with great technical prowess.
We're playing a sim/game. We will always take more risks, always try weirder but unsafe setups, always push the driving to the limit, or past it, than in real life racing. We can just crash our car 100 times until we manage to make that world record. In real racing, you can't afford that. That's why really fast RACERS are the ones that are technically excellent. They can keep the car on the limit without making many mistakes. World record drivers are fast drivers, but they'll try a million times just to get that record, whatever the price is, be it spending a month trying, crashing ten thousand times, etc.
You can't deny we are playing a game, and as long as the simulation isn't a 100% representation of reality (physics-wise mostly), anything goes. The ultra-fast drivers are just people that push what they are given to the limit, but with great technical prowess.
Which leads to a more factual based answer to the LFS vs XYZ threads. Why is it that so few of the GPL / NR2003 / GTP / ISI based top racers (alians) play LFS? Greger Huttu has moved on to ISI based racing games. So have most of the other "aliens" from the older sims. Now part of this was because LFS had buggy tire physics until the recent releases, but I still don't see much interest in the current LFS from the older "aliens", as only a few of them play LFS.
Greger Huttu is a member of Team Redline. Most of the current team activity involves ISI based racing sims. There are more Team Redline members that play the Toca Race Driver series than LFS. Aki Räsänen, aka "Lefty" is a member that appears to be the most active with LFS.
What is it about LFS that has made it a "niche" component of PC based sim racing?
Another reason is that they risked their real life in those cars. I wonder how many alliens would be willing to repeat that 'full throtle through Masta" trick in real life caught between those flimsy turbular chassis bars they used in those days.
They had to take it from the bottom while we can take it from the top. Some Alien may find that 'full throttle' trick but he probably crashed a dozen times before going through properly. So IRL that can never be accomplished or could, in that respect, because the driver would be dead. They were brave but it's not like they had a deathwish.
If the thought of driving a Ferrari 312 / Lotus 49 / Eagle Weslake ~400hp ~600kg MONSTER on the Nurburgring doesn't make your body produce all sorts of fluids, then I doubt which planet this guy or gal is from..
And looking at how vastly different todays sims are in their physics engines, you can't say 'its old so it can't be as good'. IMO physics are still going wrong somewhere in all sims on a pretty basic level. CPU usage is less but if a simple model does the major things good, then you'd have a better sim than a more complex sim of 2006.
You can try a few things..
1) make a 600kg 1.1G pulling low inertia slight rear weight biased car in Rfactor.. (actually don't, you KNOW it will be horrible..
)
2) play GPL..
3) Use some working version of LFStweak to give the LX6 400 horsepower..
Which of those is more believable? I'm surely going with GPL. It doesn't punish 'unrealistic' driving but don't forget Joosa Reiinienienienienkeen (sp) who has a rank of -90 or something right foot braking and using a H shifter. I wouldn't say his 'style' is what they did back then (its a 'tad' risky) but it prooves a point. And when driven with slightly more locky coast diffs, normal brake biases of 60% and smooth inputs, a sub 8 minute Nurburgring lap, judging by how the car drives and reacts to inputs, bumps, changes in load etc.. I'd trade in loads of fancy LFS physics features for it to have better BASE physics.
And looking at how vastly different todays sims are in their physics engines, you can't say 'its old so it can't be as good'. IMO physics are still going wrong somewhere in all sims on a pretty basic level. CPU usage is less but if a simple model does the major things good, then you'd have a better sim than a more complex sim of 2006.
You can try a few things..
1) make a 600kg 1.1G pulling low inertia slight rear weight biased car in Rfactor.. (actually don't, you KNOW it will be horrible..
)2) play GPL..
3) Use some working version of LFStweak to give the LX6 400 horsepower..
Which of those is more believable? I'm surely going with GPL. It doesn't punish 'unrealistic' driving but don't forget Joosa Reiinienienienienkeen (sp) who has a rank of -90 or something right foot braking and using a H shifter. I wouldn't say his 'style' is what they did back then (its a 'tad' risky) but it prooves a point. And when driven with slightly more locky coast diffs, normal brake biases of 60% and smooth inputs, a sub 8 minute Nurburgring lap, judging by how the car drives and reacts to inputs, bumps, changes in load etc.. I'd trade in loads of fancy LFS physics features for it to have better BASE physics.
Hi George
Well, I can´t talk about LFS because I do not have the time to drive it frequently. Real life plus league management plus the GPLPS plus the GPLmods Team activities do not let me dedicate time to other carsims than GPL (mainly) and NR2003, GTP mod mostly. I tried GTR and rFactor this year but I am really involved with carsims that, as a frustatred racing driver from the 60s
, let me drive the cars and tracks I like the most, so there goes my time and dedication.I am not saying the modern cars or tracks are worst than the old ones. It is just that I do not like them. If you make me choose between a 1967 Ferrari 312 F1 and a Ferrari F1 2006, well, you know the answer, don´t you ?
Anyway, after being in contact with modders that are working with other car sims, I think that one must be very careful before stating a car sim is better than other one, just because the physics´ engine is newer. FOr instance, GPL has around 120 parameters for each of the 7 cars + around 30 additional parameter for 5 types of tyres. Afaik, rFactor has about 500 parameters. In theory, rFactor seems to be much more advanced than GPL, but the problem is that, to make realistic physics you need to know real life parameters, which could be a problem is we talk about cars from the 60s, even from the 70s and 80s. Those parameters include chassis, suspensions, gearboxes, differentials, tyres, engine torque/power curves, etc, all with enough detail to match the parameters you need to fill in to get decent physics. The problem just get worst if you need to fill in 500 parameters instead of 120, so there are chances you may need to make too many guesses and spend lots of time without getting the proper handling/performance.
This is not about just getting similar laptimes at the same track. You need to know top speeds at certain tracks, you need to keep tyre temps below certain values, you need to know how the tyres used i.e. in 1967 really worked, which will have a decisive influence in the design of the suspensions. So, if you are working with a car sim that simulates a modern F1 car, I would say that it is almost useless to simulate a 1967 F1 car, unless you are ready to spend countless hours/days/months/weeks, or even years, looking for data and testing, not to mention the graphics´ work, and even in this case, the results may not be the right ones.
So I would say that, if you would want to mod some 60s or pre-60s racing car, for the moment, GPLhas the best engine. Newer than that, probably rFactor or GTR2/GTL. In any case, you need some historical tracks to test the physics. Otherwise, it could be just a theorical exercise.
I'm way out of line for saying this, so please take it for what it is... A comment made in jest...
But... Could my assumption of 'aliens' have anything to do with it? They don't race LFS as it doesn't allow them to be 'aliens' because of the vastly superior physics?
Then again, for Team Redline (not to be confused with LFS's Redline Racing) it might just be pressure from their Sponsor (BRD, for those that don't know). They need a bigger audience, so they stay away from the really small communities like LFS.
EDIT: I know for a fact that Greger does in fact have an S2 license, and has done some racing in LFS.
I can only agree and if somebody reading this want to give GPL a try you can download the Demo here.
But dont forget when driving it for the first time these cars were driven back in 1967 when F1 cars had no wings at all, 400 hp on tyres that were so hard that they lasted for a couple of Races sometimes. But these cars were a pleasure to drive and the tracks the ultimate challenge and part of Racing History.
I also dont think the amount of parameters make or break a Sim. Its the Physic Engine, its very comprehensible in LFS aswell as GPL.
I dont know Greger Huttus reason for not Racing LFS in a League and maybe the answer to your question is different for each 'Alien' you ask. But I think one of the main reason could also be the lack of real tracks and cars.
A lot of ex-GPL people have gone to GTL or GTP because of the fact they aren't interested in modern racing on (lets be honest) relatively boring fantasy tracks compared to those of old. Also LFS is very isolated for a number of reasons both through the actions and attitude of the LFS community and those of the other sim racing communities.
I love GPL. I've been playing it since it first came out years ago (albiet not much since I bought my S2 licence). It's definately better than LFS in some reguards... I mean who doesn't love tearing around some of Europes most notorious tracks in a sickeningly hard-to-control rail? It's more 'raw' than LFS for sure. On the other hand, the variety and multiplayer community LFS has definately gets a big thumbs-up. In short, it really depends what mood you're in...
LFS vs. GPL
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