Sim vs Sim topics are dull and mostly pointless. Most sim racers love GPL for what it is. The same can be said about LFS. There is no "vs". They don't compete with each other.
This thread hasn't had any flaming yet, it's produced an interesting discussion between the differences of the two and this kind of thread is good at enlightening others to a new experience, sure it's not that valuable but it's the kind of thread that keeps this forum happily ticking along, let it be.
I did let it be, I even participated. Butt out.
For me the top 3 sims are
1) LFS
2) RBR (not tarmac)
3) NKP
While GPL was a landmark for sim racing it now just feels dated, even with all the visual upgrades etc.
1) LFS
2) RBR (not tarmac)
3) NKP
While GPL was a landmark for sim racing it now just feels dated, even with all the visual upgrades etc.
You can't compare the 2 obviously, but GPL is number 2 on my list after LFS.
GPL to me represents the challenge of finishing a race, not just beating the other guys. Any game where I can be beaming from ear to ear just for finishing into the top 10 over a full GP distance gets my vote. As most people will know, getting your car to the flag is challenging enough in GPL, and with the community keeping it fully up to date, I don't see it being pitched backwards through the LFS fence in a fireball anytime soon.
GPL to me represents the challenge of finishing a race, not just beating the other guys. Any game where I can be beaming from ear to ear just for finishing into the top 10 over a full GP distance gets my vote. As most people will know, getting your car to the flag is challenging enough in GPL, and with the community keeping it fully up to date, I don't see it being pitched backwards through the LFS fence in a fireball anytime soon.
no, couldn't be any further from the truth. The simple truth is, LFS just isn't good enough for many people, including myself to be able to get into and complete seriously with it. My reasons for this have already been discussed in rather huge detail about a year ago, and not much has changed since unfortuatly.
I think your racing view is slightly warped
Is it nascar or GTR2?
I'm asking this because for me the GTP is almost perfect "sim" or mod. It has the most interesting cars and tracks in a very good package. It is quite good but in the end I feel too much nascar in it. GTR(2) has a very interesting car and track line up, although I find it's physics quite questionable. Looking at LFS, it is the only game or sim that gives so much variance with cars. From 500hp GTR cars to low hp fwd mini alikes. And imho does it pretty well, mostly because of it's tire physics and feel of getting the right output from my inputs. Buyt when the majority (?) of sim racers see other sims better, is it just because of driving imaginery cars on imaginery tracks. Is it the missing options that make it seem more arcadey than it actually is, like NFS type of starts and non-existent engine damages etc...
Basically for me LFS doesn't offer anything special in terms or tracks and cars when looking at them. But driving them just feels so good that it has completely captured me. As much as I like the cars in GTR and GTL especially, the driving feel and physics make the whole experience mostly negative.
I just can't understand how a harcore sim enthusiast can like sims like GTR2 or GTL because for me they give nothing in that respective. HC physics. What is that something that makes them better? Maybe nascar 2003 was better than LFS if it wasn't all about nascars and ovals.
Maybe you could give me your opinion on this? Why the GTR2s, GTLs and rfactors are seen better? Just because (I ask nicely) I can't figure it out by my own
If I may answer that one, I think a lot of it is down to the fact that the devs of those games hype them with "real physics" and "real data" from all these teams and this "chassis engineer" working on the physics and so forth. People are more inclined to believe that, and not think for themselves and make their own minds up on which makes them feel like they're in the car. Then along comes LFS with this completely different driving feel, you can chuck the car around, catch massive slides, the FF is subtle, etc. Three guys who don't shove their auto-biographies down your throat come and say that this is a simulator! It doesn't have real tracks, and it has few real cars so obviously they don't have that much data behind it, and they don't have the support of real racing teams. You get what I'm saying. A post I read recently by Nard likened most other sims out there to masturbation. I completely agree with that.
I don't believe that it is like that at all. And by looking at Richard's previous posts, it seems that it more of issue other than physics, for him. Maybe credibility is "the tough one" for LFS but I don't believe that success as a racing sim is about marketing terms and hype. Of course there are people who believe that Gran turismos are the pinnacle of racing games but these people aren't on the market for a realistic sim - they want a gaming experience and generally don't know anything better. Maybe it is the same thing with ISI that people see that these people make enough stuff right for a certain piece of software to be a sim. Same thing with LFS. The majority agrees that LFS does things right. The sounds are done right, they don't sound quite good but are done right. Same thing with everything. In every community. The own sim does most things right, being the ultimate simulator. But I just don't get the reasons why GTR2 would provide better experience or more enjoyment.
At gamefaction, LFS scored 6/10? Nascar was said to get a 7. GTR2 got an 8. By reading the review of GTR2 I just don't get why it would be so much better than LFS, or even better than nascar 2003... GTR2 is not totally crap imho, it has some features which get closer to realism than LFS' same features but as a whole package GTR2 is seriously lacking. Even with 100 real cars and 100 real tracks GTR2 isn't as interesting as LFS is with far less content.
At gamefaction, LFS scored 6/10? Nascar was said to get a 7. GTR2 got an 8. By reading the review of GTR2 I just don't get why it would be so much better than LFS, or even better than nascar 2003... GTR2 is not totally crap imho, it has some features which get closer to realism than LFS' same features but as a whole package GTR2 is seriously lacking. Even with 100 real cars and 100 real tracks GTR2 isn't as interesting as LFS is with far less content.
Because GTR2, GTL, Rfactor (talking mods here, rfactor is a terrible product) immerse the player in a much more realistic way than LFS can. LFS has some of the most detailed physics in any racing sim, and that is teh only strong point of LFS compared to other sims. But even this is ruined by some of the physics that are not done yet and make the handling, in some cars, dam right awful.
But basically the content in LFS is terrible, the tracks, the cars, the way it just feels is from the last century. I'm sure if someone like Blimey games got hold of lfs, in a slightly more completed state and made a full blown product on it. It would probally be one of the best simulations out there.
I personally just don't have much fun driving LFS, as I said its content is bad and that goes deeping than just 'oh it doesn't have realistic cars', it doesn't have good sounds, it doesn't have a good cockpit, and the tracks are poorly designed.
But the LFS community has kind of distanced itsself from the rest of the sim racing community, most of its followers are pretty arrogant in the sense they just dismiss anything else on the market and use the same 'oh but lfs has good physics it doesn't need anything else' line.
If LFS was that good, it would be the most popular racing sim ever, but its not. Thats not to say other sims are great either, I know that most people in sim racing are just 'waiting' for the next game to come out, maybe thats a future version of LFS, maybe its iracing, maybe its something completly new.
I haven't distanced myself, i've tried every other serious racing sim, i've tried all the popular mods, i just dont think i get as much fun out of anything else as i do LFS.
For me LFS is the most realistic racing sim, i hate mentioning my RL experience but i am a real life racer and have been for a long time in single seaters and touring cars and LFS is for me the most realistic game.
Sure it's not all polished and shiney likr GTR, RACE, GTL etc.. but to be honest i dont really mind because i could be driving a big green box and i wouldn't care so long as the racing was good and the feeling was real. I'm a racer, i dont need things to look pretty.
Just my 2c
P.S. Merry Xmas to you all
I thought you meant the rest of the community in general, sorry if that was understood the wrong way.
Richard, but without realistic physics the whole notion of a racing sim falls apart. We're not saying that LFS doesn't need anything else, we're saying that the rest of the sims are completely useless without it in our eyes. If those sims had physics on par, we would gladly drive them. There are really fun and challenging combos out there, as well as cars that are great to drive where the WIP state of the whole sim is less noticable.
It is not a matter of looking at nice interiors for me. It would be fantastic to have them and I believe they are coming in the next incompatible patch, but I just get completely frustrated with whatever I'm driving the moment I slide beyond ~10degrees and insta-spin. In LFS I just get in and drive as if I were driving a real car. In GTR I'm looking at cars on the screen and responding to what's there. NetKar's a little bit better than that because it actually feels like a car a lot of the time and only goes haywire now and then.
What sets LFS apart big time from other sims is: ISI sims are a spreadsheet which is no good if that data in the spreadsheet is wrong (and trust me, I've seen loads that proves how wrong it is). Here, try this out: http://www.lfsforum.net/attach ... id=14021&d=1154374270
Replace the Pirelli_GT.tyr file in your GameData\Teams folder in GTR2 with the one in the archive and try the 575. Tell me what you think - that's a tyre curve based on genuine data.
NetKar on the other hand is a mathematical model so there isn't half as much space to go wrong. They're getting it there for sure..
LFS is a physical model which means that even if it isn't all that accurate sometimes, it still feels like one solid piece. You always know what's going on. I'm sure you know what I'm saying.
Anyway, enough from me.
Agreed. Though there are some other areas, like LFSworld and some features which have never seen in other sims.
Agreed mostly, disagreed on the blimey part. Blimey and ISI all seem to try to tweak and use some vague fake values to make the cars to seem to handle like someone at ISI thinks they should do. Imho, that is not a good way to make simulators.
Basically I agree on everything and I still find LFS much more entertaining. I guess it is down to different tastes. And to the fact that racing sims are still developing and there isn't any killer sim yet. Nk pro got quite close (but the downhill started when it was released
). The good or bad thing is that people (just like in real life) are ready to forget anything they have said or decided on something. The majority of people some time ago said they won't buy iracing but they will eventually buy it and say it's great. I don't see LFS as anything different in this respect. The own sim is the one that nothing can't touch. And that goes all the way.
Looking at LFS today I get the feeling that we are 1 year away from S2 final. In other words that is 2 incompatible patches. S3 is said to make LFS into the final state, implementing stuff like wheather, better graphics but the physics are said the be quite final in S2 final. In that respect I don't see any major physics updates to be seen anymore. Maybe the few patches will lift LFS a bit further, like the latest incompatible patch did but the developments seems to be slowing down. I'm not sure whether LFS is slowing down to get back up to speed later or is it slowing down because the final stop is getting closer. Ultimate racing simulator is one hell of an ambitious project for just 3 developers without real life racing partners. And the must-release-before-christmas V patch doesn't give good impression of LFS' future, for me at least.
I kinda meant more the content side with Blimey, the models, the tracks, the textures etc. Sure they change values in the physics for GTR2 in teh way you said, but thats just because thats what they have as a base to do so. If they had LFS they'd do it in the LFS way and I think produce something great.
I think one of the primary reasons other games are more popular is because alot of people are looking for highly modable games 
which allows them to race the cars they like on the tracks they like.
I just got GTR2 (xmas present) and straight away downloaded the V8 Supercar mod and Aussie tracks
have spent quite a few hours doing my favorite track Bathurst 
and have to say its not that bad 
a blast actually... the thing is driving real cars on a real track is very immersing and if the physics are even half good then its hard to beat that immersion
That doesn't mean to say it will replace LFS
because I think LFS is hard to beat for online playability and of course its physics (especially in the road cars), but when I log on to LFS and there is not much action around, then it want take much to twist my arm and go do a few laps of Bathurst
which allows them to race the cars they like on the tracks they like.I just got GTR2 (xmas present) and straight away downloaded the V8 Supercar mod and Aussie tracks
have spent quite a few hours doing my favorite track Bathurst and have to say its not that bad a blast actually... the thing is driving real cars on a real track is very immersing and if the physics are even half good then its hard to beat that immersion That doesn't mean to say it will replace LFS
because I think LFS is hard to beat for online playability and of course its physics (especially in the road cars), but when I log on to LFS and there is not much action around, then it want take much to twist my arm and go do a few laps of Bathurst So, you're saying that when LFS is done with all the graphics, physics updates, and sounds in the way the Devs keep saying it's going to be done, it will be the most popular sim in the interwebz?
I can't wait for S3 now
Merry Christmas to all of you.
I can't wait for S3 now
Merry Christmas to all of you.
no I'm not saying that, LFS might never be a great racing simulation (in the view that i have). S2 isn't even out yet so I cannot imagine how far S3 is in the future. Since the early days LFS really hasn't change much, at all, don't take that the wrong way. I mean as a product and from a design point of view its still basically the same as it was when i first saw it many years ago.
Why does everyone say you can't compare the two things. I think anyone who says that has a too fixed mind, especially if the question is "which one is better?".
In economics there is a term utility. It means the benefits you get out of something. There is the utility you get out of LFS and the utility you get out of GPL. How to compare utility? Obviosly, you would be willing to pay more for the thing that provides most benefits=utility for you.
So all it can be boiled down to is: For which one you would be willing to pay more money for? Its like with apples and oranges. Which one is better for you? The one for which you would be willing to pay more money for (It's not really a money-thing. Money here represents everything else you are not buying to buy the apple/orange - the more things u are willing to give up the more valuable it is for you)
I would say I'd be willing to pay at least 20x as much for LFS as for GPL.
What about you?
In economics there is a term utility. It means the benefits you get out of something. There is the utility you get out of LFS and the utility you get out of GPL. How to compare utility? Obviosly, you would be willing to pay more for the thing that provides most benefits=utility for you.
So all it can be boiled down to is: For which one you would be willing to pay more money for? Its like with apples and oranges. Which one is better for you? The one for which you would be willing to pay more money for (It's not really a money-thing. Money here represents everything else you are not buying to buy the apple/orange - the more things u are willing to give up the more valuable it is for you)
I would say I'd be willing to pay at least 20x as much for LFS as for GPL.
What about you?
whats bad about those ? the tracks have some very nice details to them (especially compared to most rf tracks like the ones from the 1979 mod which are just awefull) and it has the widest range of cars any nonmodable sim has ever had
and god forbid if blimey ever got a hold of lfs and applied their incompetence in tyre physics to it
what exactly is poor about the tracks ?
i think we can both agree that the cockpits arent particularly nice to look at and that the sounds arent exactly easy on the ears
but (and this is the big one) if im fully concentrated and fully immersed into the world of lfs i dont see the cocpits anymore i only see whats outside of them and the only worth the cockpit has anymore is to provide information on the gforces acting on the car and a place to put the shifter light
its the same with the engine sound (not so much with the new ones which are too muffeled and disconnect me from the car imho) granted it doesnt sound nice but it gives me so much more feedback on whats going on with the engine and once ive sunken into the world of lfs i dont hear that the sound is bad anymore i only hear the current revs and load on the engine
my point is lfs may not have the wow factor gtr has when it comes to graphics and sounds but it has something that goes far beyond what gtr offers in terms of becoming one with the car
plus at least to me (and probably all of lfses fanbase) it has a very different wow factor which is the physics ... just with the way lfs simulates gforces, weight shifts and suspension movement that just feel right from the first moment you play it
you instantly feel like its actually a ton of car youre moving around the track which is something no other sim has ever done for me
That's a really unfair statement the tracks from he '79 mod need better textures but they are awesome tracks, because they come from an era of racing when race circuits were scary things, you just couldn't make them up.
If you want to take the graphics spin, seriously never a good idea with LFS, then look at the Nordshleife all road, it blows LFS away in every way and it's real.
Aren't the '79 mod tracks WIP? Anyway, it's better to have WIP tracks than no tracks at all. I think theres one guy who likes to create better textures for a lot of rFactor tracks. Perhaps he will make them better. All-in-all, I don't see how anyone can put down the 79 mod - its work thats done for free and it gives us more opportunities to race old cars & tracks, which is great. Looking at a gift horse in the mouth is a no-no, although constructive criticism helps.
Why do people keep saying other sims are more popular as all I see do not back this up.
1) Apart from GPL the LFS forum on RSC is the biggest forum and it has not been active there since the move here. (GPL had a huge headstart in years on LFS)
2) Online LFS is the MOST active sim from what I can see in that it tops at 1000 active players each day, can rFactor pull in that sort of number?
So how is this popularity calculated? For me sales in shops means nothing if those sales mean people play the other sims for a month then drop it for the next game.
From where I stand I think that if LFS is modable it would kill off all ISI powered sims quickly.
There are sims coming such as DR which should be very good based on the RBR history. NKP could be very good if they eever get the dev kit out or add tin tops.
I dont stand outside the sim community I just don't play other sims that do not have that magic something in their feel and most at the moment just dont.
1) Apart from GPL the LFS forum on RSC is the biggest forum and it has not been active there since the move here. (GPL had a huge headstart in years on LFS)
2) Online LFS is the MOST active sim from what I can see in that it tops at 1000 active players each day, can rFactor pull in that sort of number?
So how is this popularity calculated? For me sales in shops means nothing if those sales mean people play the other sims for a month then drop it for the next game.
From where I stand I think that if LFS is modable it would kill off all ISI powered sims quickly.
There are sims coming such as DR which should be very good based on the RBR history. NKP could be very good if they eever get the dev kit out or add tin tops.
I dont stand outside the sim community I just don't play other sims that do not have that magic something in their feel and most at the moment just dont.
No, you're right: It hasn't changed at all, that's because the devs stand true to the goal they've set themselves when they started LfS... Building a sim that can simulate all types of racing, without cutting corners... That's what makes development so slow, but that's what sets it apart from all the other sims and that's probably why we all love it so much... And everyone, including yourself, has to admit that LfS has potential to evolve, to get even better... Tbh, I can't see this potential in the ISI-engined sims, they will always be interpolated spreadsheet-queries with canned FF and blinding shader-effects, which I think misses the point of a simulator completely...
After all I don't think it's the thing that they're just not real... and it definately can't be graphical issue if you look at most of the rFactor/GTR2 mod tracks. I think it's simply about the actual design of the tracks.
For example Blackwood GP has been unappealing for me from the first second I played it on the demo. I bet no one would ever built BL GP like track in real life. If it looked graphically like a track built in 60's it would definately be more believable. Tracks are generally too wide and smooth, chicanes are useless (more of a physics issue tho), some tracks look too modern (mostly BL and FE) and they have has some very stupid desings that would be simply dangerous in real life. Kyoto GP (especially National) is good example how the tracks should be done, there are no stupid design flaws and the track has "this could be a real track" atmosphere. Not a surprise that KY Nat is basicly a copy from Lausitz Eurospeedway.
I think that is the key also... and I don't understand the argument for not modding LFS once S3 is out
alot say it will dilute the online community, but I think it will increase the online community by a huge amount and there is always people screaming for more content so modding will satisfy that demand in the future...
LFS vs. GPL
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