That wing is rice, 100%. Just because a manufacturer decides to fit it doesn't make it any less ricey.

Can you point me to where Mercedes have published figures for the car with and without the wing. Otherwise, how do you know it actually does anything? Isn't it possible it was fitted to sell more cars to yuppies (the only people who buy Mercs) who think big wing must translate to big testicles?

A spoiler is a small, usually unangled thingy on the back edge of the car, and is used to alter the pressure gradient across the car, to reduce drag or reduce lift (not actually giving downforce as such). A wing is used to give downforce at the expense of a hell of a lot of drag. On road cars, which to be frank rarely get above 90mph, you get the drag but not the downforce (too slow to get much). Thus any downforce producing wing is rice. However, some 'fast' cars might use a wing to act as a spoiler (reducing body lift, and perhaps working with a diffuser to give real downforce) and a low downforce (and hence lowish drag) wing.

To be quite honest there isn't a real definition - it's personal opinion. But one mans rice might be another mans race. My rice threshold is very very low, and I believe my definition is more accurate than Nuse's (for example).

Remember, Rice actually helps sell cars - why do you think a lot of slow (they are really) hot-hatches have silly bodykits and white dials, and brushed aluminium trim - it's not to make the car faster, and doesn't cost much more than standard - it's pure rice. Designed to shout "look at me, I've got a shopping trolley with 18hp more than normal".

Rice - No need!

i can prove to you it does have a purpose... all of the race version of that car use the exact same spoiler; thats why its there

i dont think the british people have seen good tuned cars before, unlike that top gear episode with that "tuned" (rice...) peugot, which was weighed down with like 50 subs and 20 tvs, and had a mountain dew color scheme...

or.. thats just the type of people you are; im young and enjoy tuner cars; tristan may be "young" but hes more into vintage cars, i would be too if my dad ever fixed the one that has been laying in the garage the past ... my whole lifetime

its just perspective, but i assure you.. rice.. is totally different, rice is a bare aluminum spoiler that looks crappy, and has little depth to it (front to back [of car] length), a horrid paint scheme (like the mountain dew british peugot), or is 80's to mid 90's and has an exhaust tip that can fit 2 or more of its own engine's cylinder heads in it

Quote from tristancliffe :

Can you point me to where Mercedes have published figures for the car with and without the wing.

not at the moment but what i can tell you is that mercedes used the exact same bodykit (with some added adjustability to the wings) in the dtm and that a friend of mine (w201 enthusiast) showed me a few figures that claimed that the wing reduces lift on the rear by some 40% (im not entirely sure if it was the normal 16v wing or the evo2 wing)

Quote :

A spoiler is a small, usually unangled thingy on the back edge of the car

as in the thing on the xrgs rear ? a sharp edge for the airflow to tear off ?

Quote :

To be quite honest there isn't a real definition - it's personal opinion. But one mans rice might be another mans race. My rice threshold is very very low, and I believe my definition is more accurate than Nuse's (for example).

by my definition fugly and large = rice

Quote :

Remember, Rice actually helps sell cars - why do you think a lot of slow (they are really) hot-hatches have silly bodykits and white dials, and brushed aluminium trim - it's not to make the car faster, and doesn't cost much more than standard - it's pure rice. Designed to shout "look at me, I've got a shopping trolley with 18hp more than normal".

a while ago i was given a talk on the sociology of the car ... basically like what needs and role models manufacturers have been catering for how those role models are different in different parts of the world why americans drive automatics etc
anway the lecturer claimed that one of ferraris models didnt sell very well until the put a wing on it purely for looks

EDIT:
this is what my friend came up with unfortunately most of it in german
first one shows (from left to right) the drag reduction the lift on the front and the lift on the rear for the 16v bodykit
second one is the lift on the front and rear for the 16v bodykit compared to an unkited 190e and some average for other cars of the time (which is obviously higher than both 190e figures as those graphs were published by mercedes)
the last one is some wind tunnel measurments of the 16 the evo1 and the evo2 with yellow apparently indicating pressure reduction and red indicating pressure enhancement

Quote from tristancliffe :

Remember, Rice actually helps sell cars - why do you think a lot of slow (they are really) hot-hatches have silly bodykits and white dials, and brushed aluminium trim - it's not to make the car faster, and doesn't cost much more than standard - it's pure rice. Designed to shout "look at me, I've got a shopping trolley with 18hp more than normal".

Rice - No need!

ok.. lets say i buy a new Golf GTi, yes the one with the body kit, you buy one and you say oh.. no need for valence kits, and then we have a drag... who wins? i would, because actually those valence kits lower the drag coefficient... they aren't pointless tristan!
they really aren't!
the only time they are pointless, is when they are aftermarket (not racing, but just.. aftermarket)

go to the www.topgear.com and look at the carbage section, thats rice
it has to look bad to be rice

Quote from XCNuse :

i can prove to you it does have a purpose... all of the race version of that car use the exact same spoiler; thats why its there

Okay, maybe it does in this case, but it still looks fugly!

Quote from XCNuse :

i dont think the british people have seen good tuned cars before, unlike that top gear episode with that "tuned" (rice...) peugot, which was weighed down with like 50 subs and 20 tvs, and had a mountain dew color scheme...

I don't think American people have seen good cars ever.

Quote from XCNuse :

or.. thats just the type of people you are; im young and enjoy tuner cars; tristan may be "young" but hes more into vintage cars, i would be too if my dad ever fixed the one that has been laying in the garage the past ... my whole lifetime

Nope, not into vintage cars, they do almost nothing for me!

Quote from Shotglass :

not at the moment but what i can tell you is that mercedes used the exact same bodykit in the dtm and that a friend of mine (w201 enthusiast) showed me a few figures that claimed that the wing reduces lift on the rear by some 40% (im not entirely sure if it was the normal 16v wing or the evo2 wing)

Reduces lift or supplies downforce? The two are very different!

Quote from Shotglass :

as in the thing on the xrgs rear ? a sharp edge for the airflow to tear off ?

Yup, or on say the trailing edge of a F355

Quote from Shotglass :

by my definition fugly and large = rice

Not a bad place to start!

Quote from Shotglass :

a while ago i was given a talk on the sociology of the car ... basically like what needs and role models manufacturers have been catering for how those role models are different in different parts of the world why americans drive automatics etc
anway the lecturer claimed that one of ferraris models didnt sell very well until the put a wing on it purely for looks

It's absolutely true. They make their cars look 'tough' so that people like Nuse here are impressed by them, and then start to think the Gold GTi bodykits are fitted for drag reduction!

Quote from XCNuse :

ok.. lets say i buy a new Golf GTi, yes the one with the body kit, you buy one and you say oh.. no need for valence kits, and then we have a drag... who wins? i would, because actually those valence kits lower the drag coefficient... they aren't pointless tristan!

I beg to differ. Again, any figures on this? Carried out any CFD or windtunnel modelling? I'd be willing to put money on there being less than 5% difference, which is almost certainly circumstantial. If there was that much aero advantage to be had then all the models would get them to make their mpg figures/0-60 figures look better across the range. If the GTi is meant to be more aerodynamic, they've basically said 'everyone else can screw the environment with excess drag, for the sake of a £100 bodykit'

Quote from Shotglass :

they really aren't!

Sorry mate, but they are!

Quote from Shotglass :

the only time they are pointless, is when they are aftermarket (not racing, but just.. aftermarket)

And what if a manufacturer fits exactly the same stuff, as they have been known to do! Look at the big wheel craze - the number of new BMW's that the magazines advise the big optional wheels are avoided. If they were 'better' they wouldn't say that - they are ricer wheels solely to sell more cars because todays 'youth' think big wheels = better dynamics.

Quote from Shotglass :

go to the www.topgear.com and look at the carbage section, thats rice

It is, but not the be all and end all of rice

Quote from Shotglass :

it has to look bad to be rice

Not necessarily

Got bored with copy/pasting the correct quote tags, so I think Shot has been given rather more than he actually wrote, and Nuse too few. You can sort it out yourself.

lol congrats on writing the LONGEST post... EVER here haha
ya you messed up on the quotes really bad towards the end lol, owell atleast you dont take it personally

there are figures actually,... FACK! i was wrong lol it decreases air resistance (good thing didn't bet any money!) i knew it made a difference, without the bodykit it is 0.32064, vs the body kit (which... actually this body kit is bad anyway because it does do some damage to the purpose of the ground effects already on the car, but anyways it increases the coefficient to 0.3216
you can view it all here: http://www.vwfeatures.com/gti.html?ic_id=gti_mini
click on body then watch the drag coefficient as you click on body kit, and you can also see what i mean when i say it deffects the ground effects on stock
it is simple and makes it look alot better though, thats just me though

owell whatever, normally bodykits made by the manufacturers generally improve performance (hence the reason they are made by the manufacturer)

as far as dub size wheels, 95% of the time im with you tristan, im not a big fan of those huge wheels that are .. i could say something really bad here but dont want to lol.. but every so often (usually on hotrods atleast) big dub wheels look good

Those DTM derived Merc's (same goes for the monstrous leviathan, the CLK DTM) would look stupid without the wing.
I don't think there's anything wrong with them, even if their effect is minimal, because there's a reason for their presence.

Generally, though, they certainly aren't neccessary on road cars, and a diffuser will do just as much for reducing lift as most wings. Even things like the 360 Challenge Stradale managed to escape without a huge wing getting bolted on to it, despite the 360 challenge race cars having wings. The designers obviously looked at it and thought, hold on, we don't need to put a huge wing on the back. Which is why it just has that little spoiler shaped into the rear, and of course a diffuser. All the better for it too.

XC, sorry, aftermarket, or even manufacturer's own "performance" bodykits rarely (I'd bet almost never) offer any improvement to the drag co-efficient. That's just not their purpose, they have aesthetic tweaks, often bigger openings etc and manufacturers don't intentionally produce inefficient standard bumpers, skirts, etc.

its a possibility, but i think i agree with you now that i think about it

as for tristan.. one day i'll prove you wrong.. just wait lol

its a new year!

Quote from tristancliffe :

Reduces lift or supplies downforce? The two are very different!

reduces lift ... i never claimed they did anything else
look at the attachments i edited into the post for some figures

Ok you have all gone off topic here!

Quote from dizzlez :

Ok you have all gone off topic here!

no way!!! haha, yep, alot
I would like to have diffrent rearwings/poilers (call it what you want) in lfs, if you drive normal racing with XRT or another car, and you can´t get the grip on the rearwheels, hust ad a wing from the XRR, and adjust the angle

If you can't get grip on the rear XRT-wheels, I suggest you think about your car control real soon because it must suck big time...

Is it possible to spin the XRT?

Quote from tristancliffe :

Is it possible to spin the XRT?

Spin the XRT?

sory i havnt rely read the before posts too see what you mean but do you mean Drift? or Burn outs?


Becuase i Drift with the Xrt its not hard at all

Quote from tristancliffe :

Is it possible to spin the XRT?

Yes.

No, I mean spin.

Spin = all the way around, out of control. Very hard to do in the XRT due to low power and way too much grip (1.2g ish) from the tyres
Drift = melt your tyres in a pointless exercise designed to impress 12 year old girls.
Burn Outs - actually slightly less useless, as it can be used to celebrate a racing victory or to warm your Top Fuel dragsters rear tyres.

Quote from duke_toaster :

Yes.

You sure? I mean the XRT, not the BF1 without TC

Quote from tristancliffe :

No, I mean spin.

Spin = all the way around, out of control. Very hard to do in the XRT due to low power and way too much grip (1.2g ish) from the tyres
Drift = melt your tyres in a pointless exercise designed to impress 12 year old girls.
Burn Outs - actually slightly less useless, as it can be used to celebrate a racing victory or to warm your Top Fuel dragsters rear tyres.

Spin = easy to do in the XRT
Drift = I want to see you drift, not i lfs, IRL, i bet you can´t
Burnout = what´s wrong with a burnout? nothing

and talking about burnouts, drift and other tinghs in this tread is worthless

Quote from tristancliffe :

No, I mean spin.

Spin = all the way around, out of control. Very hard to do in the XRT due to low power and way too much grip (1.2g ish) from the tyres
Drift = melt your tyres in a pointless exercise designed to impress 12 year old girls.
Burn Outs - actually slightly less useless, as it can be used to celebrate a racing victory or to warm your Top Fuel dragsters rear tyres.


You sure? I mean the XRT, not the BF1 without TC

What do you do in lfs man?? about 60- 70% of all the severs i been at is all about drifting. Just a few is Race only, But i think that most of all the people who bought this game did that so they had a great drifting game I think and i hope that most of us here on lfs uses the game to drift on it mostely. And if you dont like Drifting, burnouts and fun times i dont understand why you even use this game if you are so negative about it.

I think it could be very nice to be able to change wings o other parts for that matter so you could change the look on the car in more ways than just paint and some minor changes of lights and stuff. Not like the shitty game Need for speed but be able to change parts and do more adjustments. But starting with changeble wings is a godd way to the styling world hehe

Quote from volvo360power :

What do you do in lfs man?? about 60- 70% of all the severs i been at is all about drifting. Just a few is Race only, But i think that most of all the people who bought this game did that so they had a great drifting game I think and i hope that most of us here on lfs uses the game to drift on it mostely. And if you dont like Drifting, burnouts and fun times i dont understand why you even use this game if you are so negative about it.

I think it could be very nice to be able to change wings o other parts for that matter so you could change the look on the car in more ways than just paint and some minor changes of lights and stuff. Not like thi shitty game Need for speed but be able to change parts and do more adjustments. But starting with changeble wings is a good way to the styling world hehe

no, we are not going to change parts to make the nfsu noobs starting to ask for more, I want to change wings, spoilers, yu name it, even wheels, so you get more downforce, more grip in dragrace with wider rear wheels, and more setups so you can get the ultimate Driftsetup

Exacly

I think you'll find the majority of LFS users are racers. They might drift occasionally (I've been known to try from time to time), but they race more.

In real life I enjoy sliding my car, but I wouldn't bother to drift. I'm pretty sure I'd be as good as most people here. Personally I like to correct a slide/drift before it slows me down.

I think the XRT is almost impossible to spin, it's just too slow and too grippy. Maybe if you TRY to spin, but by accident?

The XRT is too slow to generate much meaningful downforce. It won't happen. We have an XRT with downforce, and it's called the XRR. What more do you want? Wide tyres? Just makes the drag racing faster and easier, but everyone has the same advantage, so the races are just over quicker. What's wrong with the tyres we have now, other than them having about 20% too much grip.

i think the XRT can be easy to spin in the right places, mainly in the south city tracks; something doesn't feel right about it though, but it may just be that i still can't really 'see' how fast im going in LFS, 60 mph ingame feels like going down the road at 20 mph

What FOV do you use? I find it about right, although with peripheral vision it's never going to feel totally right. I can judge my speeds quite well. South City? I can get the XRT to slide a bit, but spin? Come on!

it'll spin if im not careful, i think i have it set at like 90 so i have a good field of vision around me, i would probably be asking around if i had 2 screens but.. i dont

Quote from tristancliffe :

I think you'll find the majority of LFS users are racers. They might drift occasionally (I've been known to try from time to time), but they race more.

In real life I enjoy sliding my car, but I wouldn't bother to drift. I'm pretty sure I'd be as good as most people here. Personally I like to correct a slide/drift before it slows me down.

I think the XRT is almost impossible to spin, it's just too slow and too grippy. Maybe if you TRY to spin, but by accident?

The XRT is too slow to generate much meaningful downforce. It won't happen. We have an XRT with downforce, and it's called the XRR. What more do you want? Wide tyres? Just makes the drag racing faster and easier, but everyone has the same advantage, so the races are just over quicker. What's wrong with the tyres we have now, other than them having about 20% too much grip.

when you drift, you WANT it 2 spin, but not to much so you spin around, the XRT is perfect for drifting, many drifters, with or without licence, drift with the XRT