Quote from axus :

I'd suggest some kind of gentle points deduction over time though - but not beyond the already obtained license so if you've already got your silver or whatever, you can't drop below the minimum points for silver. This means that its more difficult to acquire a license because if you only earn x points per day and you drop more than that, you will not be able to acquire the license.

Bad idea. A lot of people don't have time to race every single day or even every weekend. I managed to get in a lot of racing because of the winter break but now that I'm back to working 40 hour weeks plus full time school there's no way I'm going to be able to race more than a few hours per week. I shouldn't be stuck with a Copper license forever just because I'm time limited.

Quote :

Right now, any fool can obtain a license given time.

Now this is probably true. I'll use myself as evidence. I think that perhaps it would be better if licenses were based on race times instead of race wins. I think I'm probably fast enough to be playing with the Silver guys (and I have my Silver license) but I really can't see myself moving up much futher. I'm sure I'll eventually get my Gold license, given enough time, but I'm not sure that I'll have gotten it though fast driving or simply through persistance.

I'd rather see the licenses graduated based on overall speed (for full length races, not hotlaps). The WR setting guys would be the platinum group, WR+2% would be Gold, WR+5% would be silver, WR+10% would be Gold, WR+20% would be Bronze, and everything else would be copper. Now, these are just off the top of my head, but something like this would allow people to continually race against people of the same caliber. To get the next license up you would have to get faster, not just finish races. This would also allow people to race cars other than the road cars since you might hold a Silver license in the XRT/FXO/RB4 group, but a Bronze license in the GTR group. Of course, since the STCC doesn't use the GTR or open-wheel cars this extra benefit of such a system might not be of much use to them, but I think it would make for very compelling racing and an even playing field while still making use of tiered servers, new track/car combos, etc.

Point taken, with regards to time.

I agree with a lot of the speed-based stuff too. Maybe take average lap and consistency of each racer and give the points based on those two for each race? Ie. you can't have your silver license immediately after finishing one race at that pace, but do 10 races at that pace and you've got it. Drop back a few notches, below the ballpark for your license for a number of races and you could even go backwards on your license. Obviously, points should be easier gained than lost.

Quote from Cue-Ball :

To get the next license up you would have to get faster, not just finish races. This would also allow people to race cars other than the road cars since you might hold a Silver license in the XRT/FXO/RB4 group, but a Bronze license in the GTR group. Of course, since the STCC doesn't use the GTR or open-wheel cars this extra benefit of such a system might not be of much use to them, but I think it would make for very compelling racing and an even playing field while still making use of tiered servers, new track/car combos, etc.

If you really wanted to go all out, you could allow some kind of public access ot the STCC database (on request from the server admin, not just completely public) and allow other severs to keep track of the licenses that racers have. Obviously, only certain servers would contribute to your license but maybe other servers could join the STCC effort in terms of contributing to the points if proper arrangements are made between the server admins and SamH, Becky & Co. I find it really frustrating that STCC is only made up of cars I don't really like and it seems to be sucking up almost the entire LFS community at the moment.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

I got bored once I got the silver thingy because I can't stand driving the FXO. I still go on the brown server sometimes because I like the XRG but I don't think I'll be bothering with the point collecting activities in future.

It might be an idea to open servers requiring say the silver licence with other cars avaliable. Not contributing to the points system.

Been racing the Silver/Gold server for the last week or so and I tell you one thing i've been impressed with how clean the racing is,, hard racing yes but clean.

Moved onto the XRT a few days ago and I'm finding it a handfull to get up to speed ( great fun), plus I'm seeing "this is your first lap" message a LOT, never raced so many new combo's its like LFS used to feel like for me when I first bought it.

Well done to all at STCC

John

Quote from axus :

If you really wanted to go all out, you could allow some kind of public access ot the STCC database (on request from the server admin, not just completely public) and allow other severs to keep track of the licenses that racers have. Obviously, only certain servers would contribute to your license but maybe other servers could join the STCC effort in terms of contributing to the points if proper arrangements are made between the server admins and SamH, Becky & Co. I find it really frustrating that STCC is only made up of cars I don't really like and it seems to be sucking up almost the entire LFS community at the moment.

I think that the scripts that the STCC servers are running could be changed a bit and used quite widely across the LFS servers. For instance, people have asked for a server whitelist in the past. As it is now they rely on password protection which can be a bit of a hassle. The STCC servers use a whitelist (of sorts) and I'd bet that it could be fairly easily changed so that other servers could use it as well.

Personally I'd really like to see a sort of license or ranking system in LFS. It would be nice if you could tell at a glance how fast a driver is, on average, and how fast the drivers on a given server are. Even better if you could lock down a server so that only drivers of a certain caliber were able to access it. Halo 2 used a similar system which helped even out teams and prevented newbies from getting on servers full of 18-hour-a-day players. As it is now you can easily find an open server to drive on but it's a lot more difficult to find racers that are similar in capability to yourself. It seems like there are always two fast guys that beat everyone by 2+ seconds per lap, two or three new guys who are slow or crash every lap, and everyone else somewhere in the middle. I'd imagine the two fast guys would have a better time playing against 10 other fast guys and the slow guys would prefer to play somewhere friendly where they're not constantly being called wreckers or noobs.

Axus - the point of these servers is to give the STCC drivers top-class drivers to practice the next combo with, its not a sort of LFS mmo

Quote from axus :

I find it really frustrating that STCC is only made up of cars I don't really like and it seems to be sucking up almost the entire LFS community at the moment.

I'm REALLY sorry ! *blush*.

I did write the odd compo server though, you'll find all manner of cars and tracks used there It's not quite the same thing though.

EDIT: I dont honestly see me expanding the license system to other servers. It's caused me no end of grief and made me quite a lot of enemies. I stopped LFS Companion because I was on a pedastool and people kept kicking it, i'm beginning to feel the same again. I dont want to stand out from the LFS community, but of course - i've gone and ruddy done it again ! lol.

While it might seem like you're taking a lot of abuse for the tools that you've created you have to also look at the other side of the coin. Many of us really enjoy the things you've created. They add a lot to the LFS experience in a very positive way, even if some people are negative about them. People are afraid of change and some of the tools that you've made make HUGE waves in the LFS pond. Some people will bitch that the water should remain still, others will grab their surfboards with excitement. Unfortunately, it's often the former people who can cry the loudest.

I'm really bummed that people on these forums have come down so hard on you when you obviously put a lot of time and effort into making the game better for those who wish to use the tools. I'm doubly bummed that you suspended work on LFS Companion becuase I still use it a lot and was looking forward to seeing new features. If you REALLY want to get abused come up with a tool to prevent the use of auto-clutch on a server. I can guarantee that you'll be hunted down and hanged by the two-pedal mafia.

I'm hardly throwing rotten eggs at you here, Becky. Honestly, its not a matter of me disliking the STCC servers at all, I get great connection to them even from South Africa, and near the front, its great racing. I think if the STCC license system was extended to other servers or STCC started doing other cars in future too, it would be completely awesome. So all in all, a huge thumbs up so far , but I think its time to go bigger - include a few more classes of racing, even if under different titles (ie. the single seaters can't go under STCC because they're not touring cars)! Obviously, you need more servers then so that's why I suggested making the STCC license semi-public so that other server admins can help out...

EDIT: Anyway, that was just a thought... if not access to the database, perhaps make the software public and other servers can do a similar thing for themselves. It would be a bit frustrating if every other server you go on has its own database so you have to get a license for there too though.

@Jakg - things can change over time.

I have considered a wider licensing system, but to be honest there is a lot more involved than just the software - it would make me a sim race licensing issuing authority. That'd make me a bit like the FIA - but on a sim-scale (more racers, but sadly an absense of the million pound deals! lol), and if there is one thing all that i've done so far is that it accrues enemies at an alarming rate because racing drivers do not make mistakes (proven fact! lol), they blame others, and if their license get penalised they blame the person holding the black marker pen...

Also one then has to ask, is this what the devs really want?

If I developed a wider scale licensing system that sucked up 400 of 500 online racers, that makes my race license as "powerful" as the actual S2 license itself. I'm not sure the devs would be comfortable with one person or group holding that power over their game.

This STCC thing is really a good thing, BUT!, the tracks are changing so often, it drives me crazy..
There vere some good combos out there, i had a blast on BL rev with XFG and XRG, there was Aston National REV with XFG and XRG, a blast to drive, but as soon as i learned the combo, the freaking Fern Bay apeared...
You should really stick to one track for a couple of days.
It's too arcadey to me, that whole thing. Driving half an hour on one track, than it automatically changes to different one. It's like some LFS tour.. I can do that offline... or at least some message poping up, saying "track is gonna change to Fern Bay in 30 minutes" or something like that..
So, it's a great system, but with less track changing, please, and less Fern Bay!

I have to agree with JohnPenn ^above^ I have spent some if not most of my holiday time at the silver/gold shiny server, and the racing there was super clean and super fast (just the way I like it) I am sure at the very shiny server (platinum) it will be even more so.

I think the licence system as it is now, does help split the cleaner and not so cleaner drivers, and as you move up IIRC it takes longer to get from silver to gold than it does from copper to bronze ect, it would be interesting to see silver only and gold only servers (with only 1 choice car rotated with maybe 2 others) as IMO this would help even it up for the "I cant stand the fxo" peeps out there like Kev :haha: (just a thought)

I must admit its been a joy to race on the servers knowing the points are all recorded and the system gives a good incentive that other servers do not, I also like the no nonsence ban system even tho its caused people to knock Becky and the STCC admins, I think it really helps to weed out the unsavory drivers from the masses of people who just want to race and have fun.

I still see alot of swearing but atm just ignore it best I can and try not to let my kids watch any replays with the profanity riddled chat in.

SD.

Quote from EmilO :

Hello!

i havent had S2 for many days but i sure like it!
But its some of the online players i dont like
This happened some minutes ago i was racing on the STCC New & Bronze server and the race had been restarted. it was the blackwood rallycross turn 4 maybe where the rally track goes out on the straight. theres one guy who drives an XRG and im driving the XFG,he goes wiiiide in the turn so i pass him on the inside quick.then i don't know what happend when i looked in the mirror i saw he had spun and he was screamin: n00b! N000b!! Get of the track!! and so on but i didn't do anything
after that he started to drive into me several times witout reason.
last lap i was in 2:nd or 3:rd place in the last turn he rammed straight into my rear and drove on to the finnish


it has happened several times players have pit manuvered me just for fun


well well enough yelling from me just wanted to say it

Sorry for my bad english!

Actually, I would say that he didn't spin on his own. It is likely that there was a connection problem between you and the server which caused the server to think that your car was going straight(and into his car in the process) while you were, in reality, turning.

In the future:
-Watch out for people spinning and cursing you. Ask what happened and apologize if it's your fault.
-Not much you can really do about lag, it's hard to avoid and many people (coincidentally, the STCC admins are included) rarely believe it was the culprit- they prefer to believe you enjoy ruining their racing experience.

Lastly, your English is great. It's much better than many who have it as their first language

Quote from Boris Lozac :

It's like some LFS tour..
So, it's a great system, but with less track changing, please, and less Fern Bay!

I've come to really like Fern Bay - howzabout including the Black course? With more than a few laps? Long races promote less rudeness (Well - I had to say something to bring this back on topic...)

Hmmmm, not sure I appreciate your position toward STCC admins luftrofl - in your case it was rejoining into traffic without looking, if I recall, hardly lag i'd say... Anyway byegons be byegons, it's about time I took that ban off, if, that is, you're willing to abide by server rules ?

Quote from Becky Rose :

Hmmmm, not sure I appreciate your position toward STCC admins luftrofl - in your case it was rejoining into traffic without looking, if I recall, hardly lag i'd say... Anyway byegons be byegons, it's about time I took that ban off, if, that is, you're willing to abide by server rules ?

More than willing

Quote from luftrofl :

More than willing

Welcome back!

Oh my... was this thread really necessary?
It wasn't me who "wrecked" EmiliO, but no one really did. That just was racing, those incidents happen from time to time. It's like poking someone an running to your mother... it wasn't as bad as he think it is. And on top, he just annoying and didn't want to stop to write "noob!".

An accident can happen from time to time, but this is no reason to send a replay to wreckers barricade... that's just... childish behaviour.

Quote from axus :

Good. Now what about making licenses more difficult to acquire?

Another way you could make the system time based is to say "You have to get your Bronze license in 3 days. Silver in 5. Gold in 7", or something like that. That would imply keeping track of how many points each racer has scored in the past x days though, and dropping the oldest day each time.

I don't agree. I'm a clean, but slow Gold licence driver. With your system, I never would acquire even Bronze licence, and I hate FWD

Quote from SamH :

Yep.. but by that time....

..and you'll be one step ahead of them, on the Platinum server.. a place they can't follow

Then, by the time you've gone Titanium.. the new tier will be in place, and you'll be able to graduate to the next level.

Iridium?:P

Unobtanium.

Quote from Boris Lozac :

This STCC thing is really a good thing, BUT!, the tracks are changing so often, it drives me crazy.. (...) You should really stick to one track for a couple of days. (...) So, it's a great system, but with less track changing, please, and less Fern Bay!

I have nothing against Fern Bay , but I do agree that track changing could be a little less often. It might be just fine for people who know all the tracks by heart anyway, but for drivers who don't put in 20+ races a day it's really hard. I probably need between 15 and 30 laps depending on the (previously unknown) track to get within 103 % of the WR time. That is when I'm alone on the track, so the number probably goes up quite a bit under race conditions. For me that means, when the fun part and the points collecting could actually start, the track changes and I have to start over again

P.S.: sorry for not contributing anything on-topic, but maybe we should change the thread title rather than trying to get back to the original theme

Sure lol, it does seem to be a good place to discuss wider implications of licensed racing.

The rotation frequency is actually configured in a text file, currently it uses number of races and I set it quite low because I thought it was nice to have new combo's to drive of an evening, rather than it being on a fixed combo. I think I will change this to a time based rotation, probably 2 hours for my servers.

I am interested to see licensed racing outside of my servers, originally I imagined three tier systems in operation, GTR's and single seaters in addition.

An interesting point is raised earlier in this thread though, that's a lot of licenses for people to acquire, perhaps instead we should be thinking of phasing out the STCC race license and having a more general purpose license system used on a wider scale.

As I mentioned earlier the biggest hiccup with that at the moment is fear of the power it brings, power over the community that is not wielded by the devs. It would have to be held not by an individual or self appointed group, but by an electorate - to which we then must ask, who votes?

I think a more wider scale license system should be backed by a more organised sim-racing body, a mini-FIA or MSA type group, and that body has to have a constitution and no individual should have too much power over it.

This would make a multi-server license system workable. As things stand now, I wouldn't be comfortable with granting other servers access to the STCC license system as it would put me in an unwanted position of power and responsibility.

Can we have electronic voting machines? I certainly hope so! illepall

I like where this is going. Though I have to ask, why couldn't the devs simply take from your idea and build it into the game? You would have to maybe sign up to be licensed. Also, servers could run the option of licensing or no licensing.

I suppose that belongs on the suggested improvement thread... But would be it difficult for the devs to put the system in LFS?

Quote from Becky Rose :

As things stand now, I wouldn't be comfortable with granting other servers access to the STCC license system as it would put me in an unwanted position of power and responsibility.

You could always just release it on the proviso that you only want bug reports, not feature requests or tales of abuse. That way you can continue to work on it and release updates as and when you want, without being responsible for holding people's hands as they use it