All I want is that using driving aids is slower. It is the opposite atm.. It would be kind of bizarre situation if we had proper engine damage and people just turned the "limit throttle on upshift" on to continue "flatshifting", keeping the throttle floored when changing gears.

I'm not so sure about the HC mod either. People are already using macro clutches (clutch binded to same button with gear change). It wouldn't take long before someone coded up a simple program to do the clutching to save time. Imho, the best HC mode is that gearboxes and engine damages work as they do in real life (clutchless shifts etc.) and let people make the choise to use 3 pedal systems and H-pattern shifters or not. AND support the use of these systems by not making it easier and faster to use aids. But if someone wants to make a server and just allow these controls, then what? Why should I care if someone doesn't want me and my 2-pedal systems on their server? Their server, their rules. And I can't really see these HC servers become so popular that it would divide the community.

Quote from duke_toaster :

We've had all the arguments on hardcore mode and no hardcore mode and so-on ... now here's a compromise.

• No reset and shift-s in hardcore mode
• Forced cockpit view.
• No automatic gearbox, but autoclutch permitted
• No brake help or throttle help
• TC only in cars that would have it IRL.
• Autoenforced pit entry and exit lines
• False starts

This is a way to remove arcade features but will not affect people based on hardware. Forcing everyone to own a G25 is not the way forward.

Firstly it is not about forcing everyone to use G25 to get a shifter and 3 pedals. To get them cheap (and durable) one makes own controls. If you are poor and lazy, stick with 2 pedals .

And to the list:
Forced cockpit view.
Imho, it is enough if the camera would need to inside the limits of cockpit
No automatic gearbox, but autoclutch permitted
Sounds odd. Why ban auto gearbox? It is just way slower than any other. Autoclutch permitted? At least give the server admin a choise to set it like he/she pleases.
No brake help or throttle help
+1000000
TC only in cars that would have it IRL.
As it is already?
Autoenforced pit entry and exit lines
Could be a simple turn on/off server option? No need to put this into some HC stuff.
False starts
Again, a server option more preferably.

What about F9/F10 menus? Switching to other people's car to check tire wear or temps? HUD options and menus? Requesting pit stops before entering pits?

Quote from George Kuyumji :

Its a must have for a good Online Simulation.

I really don't understand this attitude, because the view you use has nothing to do with the quality of simulation - its simply a method you use to read the feedback from your input.

If its about creating a level playing field, then you're on a hiding to nothing anyway since everyone is using a different controller. Are you going to create servers that only allow one brand of wheel at a required ff setting?

Quote from nihil :

I really don't understand this attitude, because the view you use has nothing to do with the quality of simulation - its simply a method you use to read the feedback from your input.

Well it has, if a Simulation lets me view only that I'm sitting on top of the car, its a far worse Simulation than one that gives me the drivers view as best as possible.
If I can organise a Race where everybody drives in the same Simulation View it would be a Great thing to have in a a Simulation.

Quote from nihil :

If its about creating a level playing field, then you're on a hiding to nothing anyway since everyone is using a different controller. Are you going to create servers that only allow one brand of wheel at a required ff setting?

Yes one uses a G25, the other uses VPP Pedals, or FREX Wheels, and somebody else might just take any other cheap Pedal and connect it as a clutch. Having a Server that only allow one brand of wheel is not practicabel.

But what do these G25, FREX, VPP or ECCI Drivers have in common? They use the same basic driving technique, like clutching with the left foot, or switching gears with one hand... these are fundamental differences to 2 pedals-F1 Paddle Shifter driving techniques, who brake with one foot on the brake and one on the Throttle to prevent wheel lock and stabilise the car threw the corner while they dont have to properly clutch a Gear and never have to take a Hand off the Wheel. So its a whole different Game, and thats why it would be nice TO BE ABLE to organise Races in full Simulation Mode.

Quote from George Kuyumji :

Well it has, if a Simulation lets me view only that I'm sitting on top of the car, its a far worse Simulation than one that gives me the drivers view as best as possible.

Sorry but this is just nonsense. A simulation that provides as much information as is necessary to drive it is obviously better than one than limits you, but to say that the quality of simulation is dependent on the view you use is crass. It ignores centuries of theory on perception and representation.

BTW. In Britain, if you limit competitors to those who are able to clutch with the left foot, you run the risk of being prosecuted under part three of the Disability Discrimination Act:

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1995/1995050.htm

Quote from nihil :

BTW. In Britain, if you limit competitors to those who are able to clutch with the left foot, you run the risk of being prosecuted under part three of the Disability Discrimination Act:

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1995/1995050.htm

That is just silly point . Going with the same principle, people paralyzed neckdown could sue logitech because they are not able to use the controls properly

Quote from Hyperactive :

That is just silly point . Going with the same principle, people paralyzed neckdown could sue logitech because they are not able to use the controls properly

No - because logitech also provide controllers that could be used by someone with disabilities. I'm sure there are many people who use LFS who will not consider this a silly point....

Quote from thisnameistaken :

...accessible controllers...

Yeah, probably expensive, but this company's quite interesting too:

http://www.thomas-superwheel.com/

Analogue paddles, so that throttle and brakes can be controlled from the steering wheel.

Quote from nihil :

No - because logitech also provide controllers that could be used by someone with disabilities. I'm sure there are many people who use LFS who will not consider this a silly point....

The actual topic was about HC mode, not about making it possible for everyone to play LFS regardless of physical disabilities or etc.

Imho, giving an option to server admins to filter in and out people based on their chosen driving controls is not discriminating against those who have such disabilities that the limit heir ability to use such controls. I would agree with discrimination if it was about not letting people in libraries or hospitals with wheelchairs, but to enforce access on all LFS servers because of physical disability sound quite far fetched to me.

To get this straight, you are saying that a server option that requires one to use H-pattern shifter and analogic clutch pedal would be discriminative?

Quote from All the disability posts :

<snipz0r>

This issue on disabilities, pedals and whatnot does have an example IRL. Alex Zinardi, who lost use of two legs in a CART crash at Lousyring, is driving in the WTCC with a hand control car. And no-one is jumping up and down saying it's unfair!

A forced 3 pedal + H Gate system would just be unworkable, cheatable - and unfair to the disabled community - and people with leg injuries to boot.

Quote from Hyperactive :

To get this straight, you are saying that a server option that requires one to use H-pattern shifter and analogic clutch pedal would be discriminative?

(1) It is unlawful for a provider of services to discriminate against a disabled person-

• (a) in refusing to provide, or deliberately not providing, to the disabled person any service which he provides, or is prepared to provide, to members of the public;

• (b) in failing to comply with any duty imposed on him by section 21 in circumstances in which the effect of that failure is to make it impossible or unreasonably difficult for the disabled person to make use of any such service;

• (c) in the standard of service which he provides to the disabled person or the manner in which he provides it to him; or

• (d) in the terms on which he provides a service to the disabled person.

(2) For the purposes of this section and sections 20 and 21-

• (a) the provision of services includes the provision of any goods or facilities;

• (b) a person is "a provider of services" if he is concerned with the provision, in the United Kingdom, of services to the public or to a section of the public; and

• (c) it is irrelevant whether a service is provided on payment or without payment.

To be fair however, the fact that there are other servers available to someone to use might be considered as mitigating.

My point really is that the whole enterprise of a "hardcore mode" is based on a misguided perception of what constitutes both simulation and competition.

Quote from nihil :

BTW. In Britain, if you limit competitors to those who are able to clutch with the left foot, you run the risk of being prosecuted under part three of the Disability Discrimination Act:

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1995/1995050.htm

Rubbish! Can I sue any company that requires both legs? Find me a car that is not offered with an automatic option, and I'll inform them I'm going to sue them for requiring the usual amount of legs. Whilst they laugh, I'll pass the phone to you.

Nihil, it cannot be a true simulation of driving a racing car if you're not even in the fecking car. You can get all the experiences, and be just as fast with the camera on the bonnet, but then you are simulating driving a car from the bonnet - not a frequent occurance in real life.

I know YOU don't want cockpit view forced, but making up bullshit to fit your requirements about centuries of perception analysis makes you look like an even bigger twat!

Edit: Quoting generic legal requirements doesn't mean anything, as they are not applicable in the vast majority of cases. Do you see bicycle manufacturers being sued for selling bikes which two handlebars when some people only have one arm? A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, and at the moment you are one hell of a dangerous tool...

Quote from Hyperactive :

To get this straight, you are saying that a server option that requires one to use H-pattern shifter and analogic clutch pedal would be discriminative?

It's as illegal as a shopkeeper refusing to serve the disabled. Yes.

OMG, there's more than one of you that thinks that discrimination is that simple!?!?! Wake up and smell the biscuits.

Call your lawyers then.

H-pattern shifter and clutch pedal requirement is actually:
6 (digital) buttons, one for each gear
1 (analogic) axle or button, for clutch

I can't believe that someone is actually talking about discrimination when we are talking about simple server setting

It's clear that a bicycle with one handle might be more accessible to disabled people, but that doesn't mean NOT selling them is discrimination. It's clear to me that wanking is not an option to thelidomide (sp?) victims, but you don't see them suing every porn site.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Wake up and smell the biscuits.

Smelling them Tristan... here's your coffee break - YOU'RE NOT IN A FECKIN' CAR!

When was the last time you drove a race car with a camera strapped to your eyes. How good do you reckon you'd be if a 35mm lens was your only viewing aperture for that F3 of yours?

Different views only compensate for the handicap of being in front of a 2d pixelated animation.

Quote from tristancliffe :

It's clear that a bicycle with one handle might be more accessible to disabled people, but that doesn't mean NOT selling them is discrimination. It's clear to me that wanking is not an option to thelidomide (sp?) victims, but you don't see them suing every porn site.

ROFL - do you only use your hands?! You're missing out kiddo...

Quote from nihil :

Sorry but this is just nonsense. A simulation that provides as much information as is necessary to drive it is obviously better than one than limits you, but to say that the quality of simulation is dependent on the view you use is crass. It ignores centuries of theory on perception and representation.

And why is it nonsense exactly? Your opinion seems to be that the view above the cockpit view is a more accurate presentation of driving a car. I dont think that way and I think the Majority do consider Cockpit view a better Simulation of driving then the view on the Roof or Wheels only...

Dont forget all this talk is not about changing LFS fundamentaly - were talking about an Option to Race people that use the same View all of the time.

By the way disabled people could also join a Server running Simulation Mode Settings - all they need is a Wheel that has Analog Paddles like the Thrustmaster Modena. Requireng on a Server to use clutch and H-Shifter would be cheatable, but lets not overestimate how many drivers would cheat.

You are pretending to be in a car - kind of a big point.

My eyes are the camera you muppet. My viewing aperture in real life is defined by my helmet. My viewing aperture on a computer is the monitor. YOu have to learn to compensate, but it's not hugely different. When I drive the FO8 I can a similar view than from my F3. When I drive the LXs I get a similar view from when I drove in my dads old Caterham.

No, different views are used to get rid of A-Pillars and anything that might cause a FPS drop, or (and I know one person at least who does this) to make the other cars more see-through (Forces view). Alternative views are never used to improve realism.

Quote from tristancliffe :

It's clear that a bicycle with one handle might be more accessible to disabled people, but that doesn't mean NOT selling them is discrimination. It's clear to me that w*nking is not an option to thelidomide (sp?) victims, but you don't see them suing every porn site.

It's thalidomide.

*trys not to laugh at both Tristan and his rather - er - interesting example*

Quote from tristancliffe :

My eyes are the camera you muppet.

Nope, you're eyes just aren't like a camera lens - the perception of distance is totally different

Quote :

Alternative views are never used to improve realism.

Well, I've already explained how I use them... and it is to improve realism. In an open wheeler I tend to use cockpit view exclusively, since I can see the wheels, but switch back and forth in the tintops. Without ff its much easier to get a feel for front wheel grip if I can see what they're doing...

But I hold nothing against 'arcade' views - I tend not to use them because I like the immersion factor of being lower down, in amongst the racing. However, I know when I'm driving in RL that I not only have greater peripheral vision than that offered by a monitor, but from sound and other stimuli I have greater spatial perception than I do in a game. The arcade view simply illustrates what I would 'feel' in RL anyway.

Quote from nihil :

Nope, you're eyes just aren't like a camera lens - the perception of distance is totally different



Well, I've already explained how I use them... and it is to improve realism. In an open wheeler I tend to use cockpit view exclusively, since I can see the wheels, but switch back and forth in the tintops. Without ff its much easier to get a feel for front wheel grip if I can see what they're doing...

But I hold nothing against 'arcade' views - I tend not to use them because I like the immersion factor of being lower down, in amongst the racing. However, I know when I'm driving in RL that I not only have greater peripheral vision than that offered by a monitor, but from sound and other stimuli I have greater spatial perception than I do in a game. The arcade view simply illustrates what I would 'feel' in RL anyway.

It doesn't matter on your view then if your talking depth perception. I've learnt to cope just fine with depth perception on monitors, regardless of the camera position.

Okay, so you want to see the front wheels. That's not realistic, but you're happy to reduce realism to about 5% in order to get around not using FFB? That's your choice mate. When I didn't use FFB (in S1) I was fine without it, although about half a second slower per minute.

My monitor very roughly gives me the right sense of peripheral vision compared to a racing helmet. Not quite, obviously, but way closer than trying to compare it to non-helmeted driving. When I'm driving the F3 car I don't see mirrors unless I look for them (by turning my head and my eyes), but I don't have to move my head in the FOX - so maybe we can see just fine as it is?

Quote from tristancliffe :

Okay, so you want to see the front wheels. That's not realistic, but you're happy to reduce realism to about 5% in order to get around not using FFB? That's your choice mate. When I didn't use FFB (in S1) I was fine without it, although about half a second slower per minute.

So we find the root of our differences... (LOL - on this topic at least...). To me realism is not about what it looks like. The visual stuff is just information to let me know whats happening in the world behind the screen. Realism is how it feels to me, whether the response I get is believable. Could be green wire mesh cars for all I'm bothered....

I have to agree with nihil. When i look out of the window of my car, I see an expansive view of the road. To look at the gauges i need to look down, an hence, am no longer looking out.
The cockpit view seems more real at first, but then I realized that 50% of my view was blocked by stuff that you really do not see when looking out the windshield. So i now race with the wheels view. It seems counter intuitive, but is a better representation of what we "really" see looking out of the car.
The reason i like to add the wheels to the view is it gives us a better idea of how to place the car. In real life, we live in 3D and it is far easier to tell where the car ends and how to place it. You loose some of that in the Sim world. The wheels view gives back some of that which is lost.
Now. that does not mean that "my" view is better then "your" view. I just think it is. You may think otherwise.
Maybe with TrackIR the in car view would be more realistic, because you can move your head about. But the view would still be like looking through a mail slot.

On the disabled law issue;
Scavier would not be liable as they are only providing the option.

If anyone would be liable it would be host providers, but then I still don't think you'd get anywhere in court, especially given the international boundaries.

Again, I state that this is such a pointless thread ...
carry on