The problem with developer involvement is that of punishment/appeals. The devs cannot get too involved in community matters.
Any licensing body has to be able to offer, like real world racing bodies, an appeals resolution process for both server owners and racers. More than anything else the point of a licensing system is to get good racing, if the devs did this themselves they would be powerless to act against behaviour that is outside the boundaries of a license system.
The problem is with this power comes responsibility, which is why if the current system is to go to outside servers it needs to be more organised and above any one individuals control.
I don't personally like the idea of being bound to an FIA-like body. You only have to look at the FIA to know why. I think it's now been proved that it's possible to introduce an effective licencing system which works over a number of servers, in LFS using InSim.
However, I personally don't think that this itself even remotely translates to a need (or necessarily a want) for a system-wide career mode, spawned by the community - or any individuals in it. If it were to be implemented, I think it would need to be implemented by the Devs. The responsibility for arbitrary server access restriction would have to be devolved from the Devs down, because no other system from the community will ever be able to assume that responsibility.
I think the STCC system is great. I think a GTR system would be fantastic. I'd even try my hand at a single seater tiered system.. but beyond that, dev-only in my opinion
Right now, it's STCC-only and because the STCC is a cluster of privately owned and privately financed servers, it can allow or limit access in an entirely self-authoritative fashion. That's how it is.
i understand what you are saying becky but i cant see a problem being made its just like not allowing bad drivers on the servers with the wrecker barricade, its down to the server owners to say who drives what in the servers not the dev's, if server owners want to run the system then thats up to them, your licence system works very well and has been a great addition to the comunity and i hope it keeps getting better
I wonder whether this is really a good route to start down. I've raced exclusively on the STCC servers since buying my S2 a month ago, but only because the track rotation and breadth of driver skill has been invaluable, really priceless, in introducing me to LFS.
But if such a system was to be extended and formalised across the LFS community of servers, I think you're right to be worried Becky. It would be great to see more diverse and imaginatively structured competitions, but why create a mini bureaucracy to do this? I can only see that becoming a homogenising influence that would create more division than diversity.
It needs to be understood that it isn't compulsory Sam . Only those servers which want to offer it would be involved.
Lets take a look at what is viable taking an MSA style option (i'm not using the term FIA, because I think it's an unfair parallel to use! lol - there are other racing organisations out there that do work )
The advantages:
Lots more tier 1 servers than there are now.
Guaranteed quality racing on tier 2 servers in more combo's than STCC can offer
The disadvantages:
If the current system was used, too much power & responsibility resting on my shoulders.
Taking an MSA route:
Advantages:
As current system, but also appeals & resolution for driving disputes
Also for the first time it would provide a means of absolving drivers against over vigilant admins
Provide a standard set of simple rules for use on second and third tier servers to get quality racing and clean overtakes .
there was something similar to this back in S1, namely the credits.
however it was nowhere near as complex and relatively hard to achieve to drive your chosen car as the stcc system, and of course you could get credits for offline racing as well.
the concept is similar, but the stcc system serves the purpose much better.
Which is what I've been trying to say from the beginning - server involvement is not compulsory... but the idea is so brilliant that it would absorb almost the entire LFS community. If there are enough servers taking part, I don't see this as a bad thing because there will be a place for everyone. I think that the whole "power" problem only becomes an issue when you:
1) Charge for your service (ring a bell? *cough*Race2Play*cough*).
2) Don't cater for everyone's racing interests but suck up the whole community.
3) Limit access unfairly (ie. unnecessary bans) with no appeals procedure.
Ie. no-one's LFS license should de-value. Nor should it become become useless online if they don't pay money.
I'm talking larger than a system with 5 tiered servers and some licenses named after arbitrary precious metals here (). I'm talking about an online career level of sim-racing, 50 servers or more. Each driver having an online profile with his prefered form of racing (ie. front wheel drive race cars, open wheelers, high performance road cars, endurance racing, you name it)... his racing qualifications earned on the system... his pace and consistency.
Obviously, everyone will have to start low as per real life racing - ie. the current STCC cars, but as they move up in the system they don't necessarily have to go from the TBO class to LX4, they can go to the XF GTR and UF GTR. This depends entirely on the qualifications required by a particular server, which will depend on the server admin and not on you, Becky and Sam. Maybe some servers will opt for accepting all drivers and putting them straight in XFR and UFR... it happens in real life but on the other hand no-one jumps straight in a FZR in real life. This takes some responsibility off your shoulders. It also doesn't have mess with the current STCC system because "qualifications" don't necessarily have to be related. Each server, or set of servers, can add its own qualifications to the system.
After a month or two, everyone will hit their "current tallent wall". They'll have to progress driving-wise, to proceed to other racing unless they're amazingly good and climb straight to the top (no problem there either). Eventually, when they're good enough, they'll be racing in the cars they want to drive with quality racers of their own pace. To me, the prospect is just so mouth-watering and brings a tear to my eye when thinking about what sim-racing can become.
Hell, you could even incorporate organised racing into the system. Leagues could demand certain qualifications to allow participation, and the qualifications that come with winning in such racing will also shine against your name. On top of that (and this is where the whole online profile containing more than just "qualifications" comes in), teamed leagues can have a team manager and the team manager can look for drivers which they wish to recruit for participation in some league based on this online profile. You could search through the database for drivers that like... LXs. Find a fast driver who's interested, and recruit him...
You get the whole idea... it would be HUGE and an amazing achievement for sim-racing, I think. Obviously, I've not covered everything that you can do here, but I think it can take LFS racing to a career level almost identical to real life... yet unpaid for. And one day when LFS is good enough, even that can happen - sponsors, TV broadcasts, entry costs. That should never be the goal from now - but if things swing in that direction one day, why not?
Hopefully I've made a bit of sense and your imagination can fill the gaps.
But the bigger problem is probably that of the whole appeal and sanctioning business. I can imagine this to become a shitload of work and there would have to be enough server admins who are willing and capable of doing all the necessary but unpleasent things involved ... The way this is handled will make or break the "LFS online career mode", I think.
Becky, why don't you publish the source code of the licensing system? If you don't want too much power & responsibility over it, then set it free (= release it).
You don't have to decide in what direction the system will develop. You don't need to take the flak for features that are put in or left out, for the scoring method, or for the car&track selection.
You can sit back and see how the whole community takes your idea further.
I like the idea of this system being open source. I don't know Becky's feelings on the matter, but one small problem I know will exist - the programming isn't done in VB, C++ or any other language I know. It would have to be entirely re-coded to make it accessible. If you were going to go at it that way, the same thing could quite feasibly be coded ground-up in PHP or VB. You need to be able to stuff data info into a (MySQL) database and pull it out, detect events in LFS and process them. Truth is, anyone with a solid base in programming and an understanding of InSim could do it. Becky's the one that originally sat down and did it. The concept, to me, is and always will be Becky's because of that.
You just need practice! I recommend the New & Bronze servers
New tiers are planned, provided Becky's still willing to deploy them. Last I heard, Becky was talking/going to talk to Franky500 about ways to implement the system on his servers, for his customers to be able to run the system, and we're happy to start another tier set on the UKCT server too. There's interest from teams/groups, and UKCT will defer to their choices, and run different types from them.
Oh, wait, NOO!!!
I just realized that I will probably never get past bronze!!!
OK, stop this whole licensing business right now, scratch STCC immediately!!!
Free servers for free people!!!*
In fact, if it did go "big", we at UKCT will always have a balance of licenced and free servers. I thoroughly expect most/all others will also do the same. The tier system doesn't suit EVERYBODY, and neither should it be expected to.. if it's there for people who want a direct online career path "mode", then everyone will be happy
The problem I am trying to work around at the moment, is if it goes out should it interface with the STCC license - a shared license - or should there be different tiers.
Also, should the system support things wider than tiers?
Should the system offer functionality like the odd compo club?
There's a lot to think about before releasing it to the wider public, most critical though, is what to do about the licenses - not the least of which is that if server operators have to setup mysql databases then that makes it a very difficult system for some to deploy. If it's all shared licenses - who does the administration of the licenses?
One thing I want to avoid is being the gate keaper to making S2 licenses valuable or worthless. That's what Sam is worried about too, and it concerns me also. I do not want to be in such a position of power, because I know it'll only make me even more of a target for flamewars which already leave me on an emotional knife edge as it is!
There's a lot to figure out, in terms of how to actually give the system to other server operators.
I think MySQL is more prevalent than you realise. The application is actually not in the least database-format-dependent. It could run on anything from MySQL to SQLServer to Oracle to an MS Access database. There's nothing different in the SQL language that needs changing. It just needs a connection string, and it's away.
I think all of the configurable options you've listed should be options in the config, basically. Take one app, one database, and one config file and you can launch the management application to work your servers however you want your servers to operate.
If, for example, Birder at ConeDodgers decided to run a GTR tier, and I decided I wanted to daisychain licences with Birder for a SS tier (good example actually, because I know his approach to server admin fits with mine), then Birder grant query access from UKCT to his database, and allow a chain query for me. Picture the scene:-
Driver1 joins UKCT1 - Local database query doesn't find the driver. Database query with ConeDodgers responds with "150". UKCT1 isn't accepting ConeDodgers drivers with less than 300 points. /kick Driver1.
Driver2 joins UKCT1 - database query with ConeDodgers responds with "305". UKCT1 records Driver2 in the database, and credits him with 305 points. He's now officially been "handed over" to the UKCT1 server from ConeDodgers.
The Rating System in NASCAR Racing 2003 is very nice and it would be great to have some kind of Ratings in LFS too. What do you think especially Becky Rose about this Ratings System in NR2003:
You get very fast Races on 6-10 Races, and 4-10 are also very good, 0-10 Servers are a Mess mostly but then anybody had to work his Ratings up from there, so they are mostly Newbies. The whole System is great and well balanced, nearly all Servers run Rating System.
One of the things that is different about the system as it currently stands is that points are not dealt willy nilly. It was designed for a very different purpose and conseqeuntly tier 2 contains a select few. How the points are awarded is very important, it should be understood that for the most part a license is not a right, in the STCC for instance it is something you earn. The system was designed to pick the best out and move them on to tier 2.
There was always the fear from the top drivers that in a few weeks tier 2 would be saturated. It isn't .
The whole purpose of the system would fall over if the majority of racers where on a server requiring a license and newbies had no access to any LFS content.
I too hope this doesn't rollout across the whole of LFS, unless the software is made open source, the whole thing smacks of monopolisation to me...........
Look guys, no one is forcing you to race on those servers. If you don't like the idea of having the community 'split' then don't race on them - I doubt you're the only ones who don't want to.
See it for what it is - a great little system designed to encourage meaningful racing with a slightly more enforced rule book. Don't like the cars? Don't race there. Don't like the admin? Don't race there. But please, don't say it's all bad. She hasn't forced anyone to race on the servers - they race because the system happens to work very effectively.
How many servers run this system? 4? 5? How many S2 servers are there? 300?
Until you start paying for your own server the admins can run it any way they want. It's from other peoples goodness that you actually have servers to race on, without them there'd be no servers to drive on anyway. There's plenty of servers to go around and not every server would have this system. The popular servers are popular because you get great racing on them and they are admined well. Without admins the server would be a home to bad drivers etc which take away from the racing and cause more trouble than anything.
There's always other servers to race on, so people not weanting to earn their licence or whatever can always use another server and that way those servers will become more populated.
That sounds like it could only do more good than harm quite frankly. Public pick-up races are a huge waste of LFS in my opinion. A few months ago STCC servers didn't even exist and now they are very popular indeed. I'd be happy to see the same system run in my time zone so that I wouldn't have to endure the CS-style mentality towards online racing any longer.
As you say, they are privately paid for and maintained, so it is actually nothing at all to do with you, me, or any other LFS racer. It's none of our business how people want to run their servers. The servers are not our property, there are no community rights to apply here.
If a server admin sets up a gaming environment that many people (or even just a few) enjoy, then that is a good thing to have in our community. If they apply real world rules then clean and responsible racing will be the result. Racers have no choice but to take the racing seriously and be accountable for their actions.
Nothing is being imposed on anybody. Take it our leave it, it's the same for every server.
illepall
)
And one day when LFS is good enough, even that can happen - sponsors, TV broadcasts, entry costs. That should never be the goal from now - but if things swing in that direction one day, why not?
