Personally I think there should be no "hardcore mode". The normal state of LFS should have no arcade options at all and people who want them should have the option of enabling them.
"Hardcore" should be the default state. Then there should be an arcade mode, a suite of options for those that need them. Finally there should be a whinge mode where you can't actually race, there would just be a server for people to enter so they can comfort each other about the devastating news that not everybody wants exactly the same things that they do.
Sorry everyone, but I only just noticed this and it needs dealing with.
I'm happy to be considered a 'dangerous tool', since its way better than emulating your parochial complacency. Could you sue a company requiring both legs? In most cases yes, but your example of the car is empty and pointless, since I haven't yet seen a car that isn't capable of accessible adaptation.
Since you seem to be amazingly self-conscious of your superior knowledge of the law, I'm surprised that you failed to note that in real-life, a competition stipulating that all entrants must have a left leg, would almost (there may be exceptions, but I'm hard pressed to think of them right now...) without doubt be illegal under British law. If you are so concerned about the quality of simulation, I don't think its unreasonable to ask people to at least consider why that is so. And it certainly doesn't call for your pantomime of common sense as a response.
Tristan, please dont fsck with my view of the Brittish as a more polite people than my own... I'm very much with filur on these issues, most of them are simply nonsensical.
Some of the views here could be viewed as quite "elitist", basicly refusing to drive with anyone that uses less than 3 pedals. If you can't handle someone who uses braking help its time to swallow your pride and a big dose of humility because that aid isnt that great. Auto clutch a problem? Not really unless you view those who simply do not want to build/kitbash/buy/othermethod a third pedal.
Nobody's stopped you from creating your own insim/outguage programs to set the view to onboard and what ever other neurotic needs you have and making it a requirement for a league. You could even make it report data toa central server for logging of violations. Whatever floats your boat. The very term "Hardcore Mode" drips with disdain for those who do not wish for it.
Cue-Ball please check that the car youre suggesting should shift like it's real life counterpart does in fact shift. Most sprint cars I've come across and my friend Mike Morris drives have neither clutch of gearbox.
What's wrong with elitist? It's the social form of capitalism, and that works just fine! Yes, autoclutch is a problem, because it guarantees a beautifully fast, timed and mistake free shift, something a manual shifter can't guarantee or acheive. I assume most auto-clutchers wouldn't want 'random' mistakes added, and slowing the auto-clutch down isn't quite enough (as it would still be error proof) so to make it a fairer playing field some of us would like the OPTION of being able to play with people with similar controls.
I'm with Gunn, we should have normal mode and arcade mode. Arcade mode would be sort of what we have now, and normal mode would be without any aids for anyone.
You have sprint cars without clutches or gearboxes? Wow, how does the drive get to the wheels?
Christ... What happened? I agree with you on something.... But if you ever call me a prick again (you know what 'tool' means, even if the non-anglophiles don't), I swear I'll be up the A11 so fast.....
LOL - I used to live in Norwich (Grapes Hill) - know the surroundings very well. Tool is a well known, vulgar insult - didn't think it was just a London thing, but just goes to show...
Simulators like IL2 Sturmovik have a "Hardcore" or "Realistic" mode for servers, that just turns off all assistance options. Not all servers run it, but it's nice because you know you're on a level playing field.
It's nice to have fully manual controls, but on a completely open server, you are actually at a disadvantage, so it's hard to gauge your own skill and progression against other people, as you could effectively just "upgrade" your car to sequential, give it smart brakes, and intelligent throttle control by flicking a few settings.
At the very least you should be able to see what settings people are racing with. So then you can make a personal judgement at how well you did in the race with the same people in your "class". So then if you came 3rd, but were top out of the people driving completely by themselves, you have a small victory to celebrate, rather than just wondering.
That way I think everyone's happy. No-one is shut out of servers, no-one is divided, but you can effectively race against people of the same "class", right along side the server as a whole.
For instance in the connection list, and on the end of race position sheet you could have another column with a bonus rating which starts at 10, but loses a point for each assistance module used:
Any view but dashboard view = -1
Auto clutch = -1
Auto transmission = -1
Throttle help = -1
Brake help = -1
Sequential shift in H shift car = -1
Then you could quickly cross reference against anyone else with the same value and see how you did, and see if you beat anyone with a lower value.
Don't know how old you are, or when you lived in Norwich, but do you remember Marigold? He used to 'work' at the bottom of Grapes Hill and on the corner of Heigham Street.
Still don't think tool is quite as vulgar as you do, and for that I apologise. I don't tend to hide my insults behind other words, so if I'd wanted to have been vulgar I would have been
No, I left there in 1987. Sometimes visit to see friends, but it was one of those places you have to make a conscious decision to go or you'd stay there forever - everything is within a few hundred metres of your doorstep. Just too comfortable... except that I had an outside toilet. Not quite so comfortable
As for the debate, I think it all went awry when someone said they'd like an option to forbid a button clutch. Suppressing the software aids isn't really in the least bit controversial in my opinion. GPL provides the model for this kind of competition in its Grand Prix mode.
I don't see much wrong with the suggestion above. It doesn't bother me what other people are racing with, so I wouldn't want all those stats on my screen. That'd be my choice. Racing is about braking in the right place, taking a good line, and accelerating in the right place. That's it really. If you can do that with a keyboard, you deserve your place in front of me.
But I don't see the need to build a bureaucracy into LFS that will test the technology you are using to engage the software with. Nothing is stopping people with fully equipped cockpits or homemade shifters from getting together in a spirit of likeminded interest.
Why does it have to be technologically ratified by the server was really what the whole oppositional argument could be boiled down to....
With the system I proposed I tried to make it so it wouldn't discriminate against different control methods, but only against CPU assistance.
In my eyes, ANY clutch, and ANY shifting device is equal. Whether it's a H-shifter and analouge pedal, or shift-up/down buttons, and a wheel button clutch. Both are equally difficult in terms of timing, the only thing that differs is how you operate them. Just as you shouldn't discriminate against anyone using keyboard or mouse or even joystick input for steering.
With my system you could get a perfect 0 using just a keyboard if you were good enough.
It basically only discriminates against driver choice, NOT drivers hardware/budget; and even then it doesn't divide anyone.
I would just like to see what my peers are using so I can still feel competitive even when I finish mid-field.
Racing is all about trying to get the smallest little advantages over your peers. Little setup tweaks etc etc, and I can't help but think, what's the point in tweaking my setup and trying hard to get a better setup, when I could just enable all the assistance mods as it's that little bit better to let the CPU manage it for you. Perfectly rev' matched downshifts everytime without fail etc etc.
Where as the other side of me loves the challenge and learning involved in a fully manual setup. I'd be more than happy racing as it currently stands, but being able to see how other people are driving. That way I can have fun with the challenge of manual, but still feel really competitive.
It's not about fear WHATsoever. It's about enjoying a fully manual setup, and feeling competitive because you don't feel obliged to also enable the settings to gain the same edge, which is entirely what racing in same class cars is all about.
I don't give a rats ass about wheel/mouse/keyboard/joystick, I'm refering to the driver assistance options. Read.
Driving aids don't make a bad driver faster than a good driver, anymore than using a WR set up will turn you into a WR lapper. They just mean that a bad driver will stay on the track a bit longer than he might otherwise (a bonus in my opinion....)
Button clutch is the worst of all the options in LFS. It should have been removed years ago. Anyone that thinks it's more realistic to tap a button on your wheel needs their head examining. It has absolutely no connection with using a proper clutch pedal, at all, and is nowhere near as difficult! I might just as well have a "blink clutch" where I can use my eyes to activate it, or a "spit clutch", I don't think that needs explaining.
Worse still, you accelerate considerably faster if you use it.
Can anyone actually explain what is wrong with the LFS clutch model, because its clear to me that its a software problem (as opposed to how you actuate the routine)?
If I don't heel-toe downshift in an LX on the limit into a corner I'm having to correct oversteer. There have been times where I've completely spooned it up and lost a little bit of exit speed out of a corner. This would never have happened to me in this instance if I had blip on downshift on, as it's perfect every time. Thus, I'd have been quicker.
Due to my frankenstein joystick clutch pedal, I've also mis-clutched before, missing a gear, slowing me down. If I had auto-clutch on, this would never have happend as it's perfect every time, and I'd have been quicker in that instance.
It may not affect you because maybe you're super ace at everything, but I don't care about that, I'm not you, but as mentioned above, it affects me.
What I'm saying is, you're actually punished for not using help.
You're utterly missing the point. Anyone, who isn't a perfect human-being, is a more competitive driver, in the above scenarios, if they have the help switched on. HOW MUCH more competitive is utterly irrelevant to my point.
Let's assume there are two of me, on identical hardware.
One with downshift blip and auto-clutch on (remember you can still have auto clutch and a manual button...)
The other has to manually heel-toe and manually clutch.
Over time the latter drivers LFS stats would show he is falling behind, if only slight, yet 'he' is in no way an inferior driver. Why can't you grasp this.
Right. But what needs to be understood is that there is a HUGE DIFFERENT GAME between driving with
2 Pedals + F1 Paddle Shifting + Driving Aids + Chase View
or
3 Pedals + H-Shifting + no driving Aids + Cockpit View
How hard is it to see that this makes a huge difference when it comes to braking - accelerating - and controlling the car threw the corner? How hard is it to understand that People want to Race other guys who also need to change gears the normal way, and dont use driving Aids, whats so bad about that?
If a Server requires Clutching or H-Shifting or both you are not forced to join the Server if you dont want to Race that way or do not have the Hardware for it. There are plenty of other Servers and the Majority still uses driving Aids so there will always be enough drivers for you to Race with.
Why all this bad Attitude when it comes to improving the Sim for those who want to get out the full Potential of it while Racing other People with the same settings.
Lots of stuff. Firstly, it's only on or off. There is no slip modeled into the clutch as far as I can tell. Not such a big deal on the race cars, but a big deal on the street cars. Secondly, the clutch doesn't operate like a real world clutch at all. If you leave the clutch engaged (pedal out) and come to a stop in gear the engine does not die because the game automatically depresses the clutch for you, even with auto-clutch turned off. Similarly, you can put the car in gear and turn off the engine yet the car will still roll. Also, LFS requires the clutch to be completely (or very nearly so) depressed before you can switch gears where a real car you can shift after only depressing the clutch slightly or, under the right circumstances, not at all. And lets not forget that LFS will let you put the car into the next gear and THEN press the clutch to make the shift. There are other oddities as well, such as the engine taking a very long time to stop turning after the ignition is turned off, which makes it difficult to tell whether some of these problems are caused by the clutch code or something else.
Again you've misunderstood what I'm trying to say. I don't care what controllers people are using. That's up to them. That isn't what my point is about, or what I'm discriminating against.
That's like saying wheels have a blatent advantage over keyboard users.... well obviously they do. But a h-shifter and clutch, can acheive the same functions as a seq'shifter and clutch button, as again can bound keyboard buttons. They can all dip a clutch and select a gear. Of COURSE some ways are going to be easier. Whether the limiting factor be money or preference, is up to them and doesn't matter.
I was trying to say there is a way to include a "hardcore mode", without locking it down to hardware, as I think it shouldn't be. People are free to use what they want, and if I get beat by a guy on a keyboard, I'll be amazed and praise him, not be ashamed in the slightest. I can't stand elitist gaming mentality.
And for the record I used to play Viper Racing with a clutch keyboard button and got pretty good at it as a kid.
Its not bad attitude. Its a difference of opinion. LFS is a representation of real life and as such needs to be mediated in some way. Will ALWAYS be mediated in some way. Will never be 'real'...
You want reality. Buy a car.
The difference of opinion comes from the notion that you are inadvertently promoting, that true, pro, racing only occurs when everyone competes on equal terms with equal controllers. This is an idealist fantasy. One that you are quite welcome to indulge and I certainly willl not stand in anyone's way in creating servers to accomodate you.
But this is a public space where those opinions will be challenged. Its called debate. You don't have to tell us what you think, but if you do, we don't have to agree.
The level playing field should be in the software.
EDIT: @cue-ball. I will accompany all of you in hoping for all of that to be rectified
)
