The online racing simulator
The main problem about realism..
1
(35 posts, started )
#1 - RaceDoctor
The main problem about realism..
..the damage feeling.

(Surely my English is very very bad, so guess I should shout out the things before I screaw up the words)

This might makes LFS a much more suitable for online racing than the way it should be, the damage I mean. Probably most of the racers here are ok with it, but I am definately not! What I mean is not the damage itself, it's the feeling. (uhh, how can I explain it now..) Getting damages became in LFS so usual that people usally just don't give a damn about it. For example, if I get hardly damaged at the T1, I don't think it's an end for something, I just keep on racing till the finish. Beyond the damage in LFS is like a big bad joke, the feeling is even worse. In real life/real racing even a little touch a car made on another feels deep and hard. You can feel it in other simulations such as GTR, RBR and even the F1C.. But LFS can't give it at all! There's a major problem there actually. The cockpit feeling. Everything about LFS might be extremly realistic but you can't feel like you're inside of a car. To me, it's pretty same reason of damage feeling problem. (i knew you couldn't explain, didn't i..) Basicly the cars in LFS makes me feel like they're made of paper. From the way they look to the way the go. So you can't feel a real shaking/pushing when you get hit. There are more reasons for that I know, God curse the "got to pit" option..

That was a big shout or a big nothing, I don't know. I tried to explain my point. I'm really sure I couldn't. But there's a chance of %2 I could and it'll make you understand (i hope..)
#2 - spankmeyer
I get plenty of inertia feeling from pushing the view movement sliders higher till I find a nice sweet spot where I don't get motion sickness and you but the view reacts very dynamically to car movement.

And much louder and aggressive impact sounds would help quite a bit.

EDIT: And LFS gets FFB forces straight from the front wheel steering columns, so no canned effects as in:

collisiondetectCARCRASH=true
playFFBeffect=bumb1

I won't drop any sim names but...
#3 - K.David
There should be an increase in the FFB power that damage emits, I agree.
#4 - ajp71
I must admit the sense of impact in LFS is crap, but that's probably do to the weird issues with absorption of collisions (or lack of them). Crashing in rF does feel more real and when there aren't weird clipping issues then cars do seem to hit each other and other objects in a more convincing manner, both when driving and watching replays, I am not talking about the visual car damage effects here but what the motions of the cars are like. LFS does things in a way that is technically correct when you sit down and think about it but it just doesn't seem right.

As for RBR well I usually stagger out of my cockpit and go and have a lie down. Crashing in RBR is like no other sim it really hurts, probably the fact that a lot of crashes are a total suprise because you don't realise you've overcooked it/hit a rut in the road and that it's normally game over help to add to the immersion factor.

nK and N2003/GPL never really did anything for me either in the crash field. Even though GPL can be genuinely scary when you're still on/leaving the road.
#5 - ZORER
Damage your suspension or tyres and you'll see that it's not that easy. A small damage will probably cost you half a sec per lap and lots of tyre wear. Bodywork damage is not really a big issue, remember Alonso doing qualification laps with broken body?

Feeling like inside the cockpit is not possible at all in any game you'll need a real cockpit.

I'm not sayin' lfs is doing that great, but remember lfs is still doing the best online simulation with minimum requirements.
#6 - Gabkicks
i'm sure everyone here has crashed a few times on the chicane at so classic. it's pretty brutal when you screw up that corner.

i think the lack of sound effects that takes away from the immersion a bit. also, the graphics and the fact that a headon crash wont cause your engine to stop running

no shattered glass, no smoke or fire. no broken parts. no loud thump/crunch sound. i think because the driving itself is so immersive, you feel very comfortable and can usually see when you are about to crash, so you have some time to mentally prepare. but if the other effects i mentioned were better, than crashes would be a bit more brutal.
#7 - AndroidXP
The damage model we currently have is more or less just a "quick hack" to prevent excessive wall riding, especially at the South City tracks. The car mesh deformation is just there because Scawen felt that bent wheels but an unscratched body looked silly. Of course there is so much more to be done to complete the damage model, most important being suspension breaking, downforce influence on wing damage and of course engine failure. Though I agree that the aural experience on a crash should be improved, too.

There's just sooooooo many things to do still, and I'm sure Scawen knows most, if not all of them.
#8 - Woz
Quote from Gabkicks :i'm sure everyone here has crashed a few times on the chicane at so classic. it's pretty brutal when you screw up that corner.

i think the lack of sound effects that takes away from the immersion a bit. also, the graphics and the fact that a headon crash wont cause your engine to stop running

no shattered glass, no smoke or fire. no broken parts. no loud thump/crunch sound. i think because the driving itself is so immersive, you feel very comfortable and can usually see when you are about to crash, so you have some time to mentally prepare. but if the other effects i mentioned were better, than crashes would be a bit more brutal.

I know what you mean, when you hit the right mental zone even a stap out of the rears that you instictivly catch can pump the heart a little

The SO tracks are the best for this because any mistake involves an impact.
#9 - JohnPenn
Watching races on BL rally recently and the cars need clearance to land from Air traffic control at one corner,the Impact with the ground sound's and looks brutal, but no damage is done


John
#10 - Rtsbasic
Would be nice if when the "proper" damage model is implimented, flat-shifting the road cars for anything more than a quick race results in engine deterioration. The way you can flat shift any car for as long as you like with no damage is unrealistic IMO. Of course this doesn't really apply to cars like the BF1 or GTR's.
#11 - JohnPenn
Flat shifting in the XRR does give you engine damage after a few laps.
#12 - ZORER
Hard landings also give damage, press F10 after the landing. If the suspension is not set up strong enough, you can see the car behaving badly. I know it from the blackwood car park jumping ramps.

And Fxr (i think all the turbos) used to have engine damage due to flat down-shifting in earlier patches but in patch v, damage is less.
#13 - Rtsbasic
If it wasn't as benificial to flat shift, using a gated shifter would be a lot less of a disadvantage IMO. This and having proper gearbox simulation would improve the realism quite a bit for me. (Was driving a Citroen C2 (VTR I think?) the other day that used an automatic clutch, and paddles for manual or an auto mode - having an auto clutch and using the paddles was slower than a manual clutch)

I remeber once upon a time flat shifting wasn't as widespread as it'd cause noticable popping after a few laps, but this must have been quite a few patches back, or even S1
#14 - ajp71
Quote from ZORER :And Fxr (i think all the turbos) used to have engine damage due to flat down-shifting in earlier patches but in patch v, damage is less.

There are no physics changes in patch V.

Quote from Rtsbasic :Would be nice if when the "proper" damage model is implimented, flat-shifting the road cars for anything more than a quick race results in engine deterioration. The way you can flat shift any car for as long as you like with no damage is unrealistic IMO. Of course this doesn't really apply to cars like the BF1 or GTR's.

No cars, short of possibly F1 cars due to the extreme speed of there gearshift, can flat shift IRL sustainably, most RL sequential cars have an automatic throttle cut and throttle blip, others that don't require a manual throttle cut.

Quote :
If it wasn't as benificial to flat shift, using a gated shifter would be a lot less of a disadvantage IMO. This and having proper gearbox simulation would improve the realism quite a bit for me. (Was driving a Citroen C2 (VTR I think?) the other day that used an automatic clutch, and paddles for manual or an auto mode - having an auto clutch and using the paddles was slower than a manual clutch)

That sounds like an automatic with a manual override which is always going to be a horrendously slow combination. A true sequential gearbox will be much faster than an H gate shift could ever be.
#15 - Rtsbasic
Quote from ajp71 :
A true sequential gearbox will be much faster than an H gate shift could ever be.

True enough, but how many road-going cars are fitted with a sequential gearbox? With the current gearbox model, you can drive the FXO like its an FZR with a sequential and ignoring the need to manually blip to avoid engine damage, thus if you use a gated shifter or even just lift for changes like IRL your at a disadvantage by a good couple of tenths down a long straight.

Quote from ajp71 :
That sounds like an automatic with a manual override which is always going to be a horrendously slow combination.

In automatic mode, it shifted like a manual - gearchanges took ages and the car was jerky like it had a learner behind the wheel. My daily driver is an auto C4, and using the sequential override in that is a lot faster/smoother. Definately wasn't a true auto box in the C2.
#16 - Cue-Ball
Quote from Rtsbasic :If it wasn't as benificial to flat shift, using a gated shifter would be a lot less of a disadvantage IMO. This and having proper gearbox simulation would improve the realism quite a bit for me.

I remeber once upon a time flat shifting wasn't as widespread as it'd cause noticable popping after a few laps, but this must have been quite a few patches back, or even S1

Worse than the flat shifting is the downshifting. As it is now you can downshift very early at high RPM and rely on engine braking constantly without much chance of damaging your engine. In real life these antics would result in a broken engine and race retirement. Braking should be done using the brakes, not the engine.
#17 - Gimpster
This is one of the reasons I love the gearbox in on my bike. Going up through the gears I just use a little pressure in the clutch as I pop through the rears with manual throttle cutting. Coming down I just use the clutch becase having the front brake (75%-100% of the braking force) on the same hand as the throttle makes rev matchng on down shift a little diffacult for me.
#18 - George Kuyumji
Funny Thread Title
#19 - Hyperactive
I really like how realistically the cars move around in LFS, whether it is about a crash or just racing. The damage model does good job too, though the cars can get pretty weird looking in crashes while still being 100% drivable. The biggest factors that the LFS damage models suffers from are:
- moonflight problems
- no aero damage
- no engine/drivetrain damage from collisions
- cars can deform pretty wildly

In the end, the current damage model is quite good imho. Just add aero damage, fix the moonflights and make the cars a bit more fragile and it's perfect. The cars are now pretty similar in terms of suspension damage though I'm sure it is all down to the fact that the damage system is still a bit WIP

But I agree that in LFS we don't need to fear the collisions as much we would in real life
#20 - JTbo
In LFS cars do not deform even nearly enough.

Realworld damage, driver lived from this crash and rumours say it was not much over 70kph, trees are tough:


Tires should go flat from collisions, if you scrub your tires against other car you do have chances to get a flat tire, specially if you slide to wall sideways.

When we get engine temp, I wish we get also radiator and radiator damage too, so that if you smash your radiator engine will overheat and get heat lock or even total death of engine.
Some older aircooled engines did get heat lock when pushed too hard, it causes engine to loose power and eventually jam as pistons don't have enough clearance to move, when engine is cooled it did run again, but this often did damage engine.
Same thing can happen if watercooled engine does overhat, but also with watercooled engine you usually get head gasket failure which often will lead failure in sealing of oil channels which again will cause oil to go where it should not, possibly loosing oil pressure and eventually it will lead to ending of oil and if oil pressure drops too much no matter what reason this will result bearing damage which will make engine to pretty much destroy itself.

I do prefer 100% real life like damage, but also I wish to see serverside option to reduce it for not so serious racing as real damage is something that will make it a lot harder.
#21 - Hyperactive
Quote from JTbo :I do prefer 100% real life like damage, but also I wish to see serverside option to reduce it for not so serious racing as real damage is something that will make it a lot harder.

I strongly disagree with the server side option to alter the "damage levels". I think it is enough of we get brand new cars for every start (or well ran-in, spelling?) with the engines already on the optimum temps etc. I haven't checked how fragile the cars are in nk pro but the cars in LFS are quite sturdy in this respect, slight or mediocre touches to the walls don't usually do any damage.

One thing that I'd like to see before S2 gets out of alpha is sparks when the cars bottom out Debris and all that eyecandy can imho wait but sparks are useful because looking at a replay one can see when and if the car bottoms out.

(70kph is quite fast when you are going sideways into a tree )
-
(Wenom) DELETED by Wenom
#22 - lococost
Quote from George Kuyumji :Funny Thread Title

Yeah

Reality is overrated, LFS is modelled way better then the real deal!
#23 - JTbo
Quote from Wenom :Yeah me too, but thinking about the future of lfs, car companies might not.

I really don't care about real cars models in LFS if that means I need to give up from damage realism, Finnish saying that I can't translate "pitäkää tunkkinne", means something like keep your crap, but has really more meaning.
#24 - ajp71
Quote from Cue-Ball :Worse than the flat shifting is the downshifting. As it is now you can downshift very early at high RPM and rely on engine braking constantly without much chance of damaging your engine. In real life these antics would result in a broken engine and race retirement. Braking should be done using the brakes, not the engine.

IRL engine braking is very important but you have to be a lot more gentle with the engine than currently in LFS. The fact that there are places where you have to flat downshift in the FOX to be competitive is ridiculous when normally making an accidental downshift with lifting like it was an upshift in a sequential car will result in something letting go.

Engine braking isn't always essential certainly some of the quick 956 drivers went from 5th to 2nd at the end of the Mulsanne straight for a mixture of reasons, reduced engine/transmission loads/reduced chance of a driver cock up when trying to make fast shifts with an H gate when tired etc.
#25 - Dupson
Cant see how damage can be a serious problem. I like the way damage to the wheels is applied for eg everytime you give your suspension hard time. furthermore this game is not "Flat out" and getting damage to your car is rather rare I think. With good drivers on a track actually the damage model is not even required.........

On the other hand more damage to the car will cause lots of drivers to end their races early due to connection issues ( stutter multiplayer, bumps etc ... ). Damage model is biassed well i think although the graphic representation of it lacks.
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The main problem about realism..
(35 posts, started )
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