I would like to see a lesson in the LFS lessons section where you have to stay behind the car infront, close to, without touching, for a lap.

I think this would be a useful skill, and stop people tapping people if they try and brake early, either for tyre saving, or whatever reasons.

I also think the LFS lessons should be mandatory before it enables Online Multiplayer.

Naturally how far you've got would have to be recorded by LFSW, so when you re-install you don't have to do it all again.

Any opinions?

Dave

Quote from z3r0c00l :

Any opinions?

Really good ideas - I'd like to see them both in LFS as soon as possible.

There are two schools of thought, "public racing should be pick up and play out of the box", and "i'm sick to death of noobs in public racing".

Currently LFS is designed to cater to the first group, and to some extent the second group is starting to be catered for via the community driven race licensing system. So we are starting to get the best of both worlds.

There's no harm in revamping the tutorials, but I dont honestly think it would be good to force people through them before connecting online - lets not forget that single player in LFS is ruddy aweful, if there is a skills test involved before playing multiplayer then LFS could be a waste of £24 if people cannot access the only content worth having.

I like the idea of the lesson, I just dont think it should be mandatory.

I fall into the second group btw For the most part.

Making the current driving lessons mandatory would be a pain in the a** to newbies. But it's also a pain in the a** to try to race on a server when there's people who can't drive XRT on a straight line, not to mention cornering.

A compromise would be good, for example dividing all lessons into different levels and easier levels (mostly car controlling and understanding racecraft) would be mandatory.

I also think that adding some (many) lessons regarding race craft would be a huge boost to all the new people to LFS.

Also, it would be a good idea to make it visible in LFSW that you completed successfully all lessons. Some kind of non-noob flag.

I think it would be off putting if they were compulsory, because those tests are borrrring. And then on the other hand, I think if they were optional the only people that would do them would be the cautious and aware types that do not really pose any problem online anyway.

I'm in kind of a split mind regarding mandatory completion of the lessons.
Sure, it means players have at least been told the basics of racecraft. But at the same time, it doesn't guarantee they've learned anything from it. And right now progress is just marked by a text file, isn't it? Meaning anyone could edit how far they've got.

I would love to say I'd completed all of the lessons, but I got very frustrated with the first Rallycross overtaking lesson, because although I can drive cleanly and finish the lap first, the AI tends to ram into my sides on corners and causes a fail. I know I could probably pass by taking a strange line through the first couple of corners to let it screw itself over, but since I'm not that great at Rallycross anyway, I can't guarantee that would work

I guess you could make any lessons involving racing AI drivers non-mandatory so that their mistakes don't penalise you. I use the word "racing" there so that lessons like the OP could still be considered important.

Quite simply, if lessons became mandatory, I would walk away from LFS within minutes.

Why? Surely if you're good enough to already know everything the lessons teach, you'd fly through them in minutes?

this game is an online racing sim. If i was forced to take a load of lessons before getting online i wouldn't be best pleased ;/

I do not think they should be mandatory. However, the % of lessons completed with success (or specific ones), could be used to determine the 'level' of a single driver, lets say for example, to enter a league.

Its like wearing a Tool t-shirt. No one forces you to do so, but when you see someone wearing it, you know for sure he's got good music taste.

I got the impression that some sort of racing license / experience system was going to be part of LFS by S2 final, and that would be tied in to the lessons.

Quote from the_angry_angel :

Quite simply, if lessons became mandatory, I would walk away from LFS within minutes.

I'm with him and I've said so in all the threads started about mandatory lessons.

Simply put, you pay for the product, you have the right to use that product. You pay for an Online Simulator, you have the right to play an Online Simulator. Having the right to be on an idividually paid for server is something completely different, but you still have the right to be able to attempt to go online.

It doesn't need to be a test. But some kind of basic information about flag rules, racing line, online behaviour and LFS should be included in some ways. And a way to force people to read and learn them. Tests are usually boring and can be quite repetitive for more experience people and can also be quite frustrating to less experienced people. The starting levels are quite different...
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Quote from mrodgers :

Simply put, you pay for the product, you have the right to use that product. You pay for an Online Simulator, you have the right to play an Online Simulator. Having the right to be on an idividually paid for server is something completely different, but you still have the right to be able to attempt to go online.

It can be seen that the limitations of the product are also features of the product. Part of the fun in gran turismos is the "getting better stuff". In LFS it could be translated as "getting better skills". I understand your point but imho it is bit far fetched

EDIT: "the right to be able to attempt to go online" sounds ridiculous when you are talking about a sim/game It has imho nothing to do with "rights"

It depends on the test - if I need to do a million tests to drive the next car, including ones that take 5 minutes each - then I'll just wait until someone works out how to bypass it. If I can skip the training lessons and just do a single test for each car (which includes various skills, and racing other cars in one test) then I'd accept that.

Even better would be if the lesson status is saved on LFSW, so that a reinstall doesn't mean a retest.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Even better would be if the lesson status is saved on LFSW, so that a reinstall doesn't mean a retest.

I'm sure I saw something on LFS World hinting at that, can't seem to find it now.

I'm not interested in doing any mandatory driving tests whatsoever.

I think they should make the tests compulsory before you go online & the tests should unlock faster cars as you progress. So if you pass the XFG test you can race the XFG on-line & so on.

Current racers would be exempt or maybe less than 1000miles LFSW could force the tests. Its just another challenge its not going to stop you playing the game or enjoy it any less. It would ensure that only noobs who know how to control the car they are driving would be allowed on a server.

It could also be a server option so that admins can reject or accept the unqualified.

Or have some LFS official servers where new people can earn their ranks while not being forced to race stupid boring AI (even if they get 300% better it will still be AI).

Which, in essence, would be Becky's system built into LFS, to some extent.

I think the problem with any system is simply that it won't help the people who actually need it, while it will hold back those who don't.

I think what would be better is if people just recognised what they need to improve on and worked on it by watching other racers, rather than just trying to run hotlaps then complaining when people get in their way.
(And I already know my biggest problems are early braking and not using the width of the track. But I'm trying!)

Quote from Becky Rose :

Currently LFS is designed to cater to the first group, and to some extent the second group is starting to be catered for via the community driven race licensing system. So we are starting to get the best of both worlds.

It started to get better, but there's a long way to go
Last night I spectated a couple of races on the STCC silver/gold server. Big field, about 12 fxos and 2 xrts. I was watching a very fast and very experienced xrt racer. He went to (or near to) the front in each race due to the fast starting car. Then one by one, fxos cought up and passed. I would say that of the ones that cought an passed probably 80% of them tapped him wide in corner entry before passing - noone apologised, and none slowed and waited after the taps. This seems to be getting worse not better on the silver server, fxos often have a huge majority, and many of the drivers seem unwilling or unable to respond the different handling and performance of the xrts.

The problem with these incidents are that although they break the rules, they are not serious 'wrecking', and there are so many of them that it would be a full time job reporting them all - so they seem to have quickly become acceptable... people are starting to realise that most of the time they won't get reported...

These drivers would all pass any 'tests' easily, so that would be no help... it seems to be an attitude problem - a few are arrogant ****s who believe that if they are faster than another car for any reason, they have the right of way, and can do what they like to get past, but many just have no manners, so if they get it wrong at corner entry and tap they guy in front, instead of apologising and waiting, they just fire on through like it was a 'good pass'.
(I did it once last night myself in the heat of battle, and felt guilty later - an fxo tapped me and passed in a hairpin, then in the next turn - also a hairpin, I went in a bit too hot (not intentionally), and tapped him back - normally I would have apologised and waited, but I was angry after the previous turn so didn't...)

I think this is a big problem becuase IMO the only way to deal with it is to have a constant admin presence, and thats not practical without loadsamoney

Cynicism aside, your licencing system is great - it has brought a new lease of life to LFS for jaded old has-beens like me

cheers

Col

If my tiered servers have tought me anything it's that 80% of the LFS community do not know racing rules in regards to who has right of way on a corner, and fewer still realise that throwing a yellow flag means you must wait for the track to clear before rejoining it. The problem here isn't knowledge or common sense or tutorials, it is computer game mentality. Restricting users access to online content on that basis is just plain wrong, but...

That does not mean that there should not be a place for people who do understand and respect racing regulations to go.

Unfortunately, I think the devs are powerless to act - you pay your £24 and that means you have access to the games content, it would be wrong for them to then turn around and say person A's £24 is worth more than person B's £24.

That's why I have great faith in licensed racing, and in a few months im confident that we'll see more servers running it.

My last 'contraversial' in game chat resulting from racing? I had spun, I was stopped on the track sideways to the flow of the track, so I waited for the impending arrows on the mini-map to clear, of course, somebody ignored the yellow flag and argued it was my fault...

These kind of descrepancies will always occur in pickup racing, but with licensed racing you have a panel to appeal too and effective, non-terminal, action can be taken (banning would have been overkill - making the admins powerless to resolve such a dispute).

That's quite a debate that's turned up!

I didn't mean so much the current lessons in their entirety, but, making a certain set mandatory, such as "I can follow a car round the track going slightly slower than me without smashing into the back of it, and punting them out the race". One explaining rear wheel drive, front wheel drive, the correct procedure in turn one, you get the idea.

I know these are all part of the forum section, but a lot of racers never even get to the forum within the first few months of racing! I think at the very least a forced video, and a one lap check what you've learnt would be good for everyone. With the current AI, anyone who can't keep up with them doesn't really deserve to be on a public server anyway, they're simply going to get themselves a burning banana for ruining other peoples races, which causes friction between racers, and there's enough of that already.

I know everyone's got a right to the content, but, in terms of realism, they do not let 8 year olds drive DTM cars, for a reason, because they'll crash it very quickly, unless they get some practice, so force a little practice, only a few laps, away from races other people care about.

Seeing as they look the "coolest" the first thing any driver who's just forked out £24 is going to do is jump in the GTR cars, and if they're under 15, is jump on the conedodgers server, because it's got cool cars and lots of people, fire up RACE_S, and obliterate everyone, assuming they get off the line alright.

Just because I've paid £24, doesn't entitle me to shunt all and sundry off the track, wasting other peoples £24, on the premise that I don't know what I'm doing.

All you people who've said no, how long would it take you to beat the AI six times, one lap each, and watch a few quick videos?

I don't want to keep people off the servers, I just want to educate them. I've done all the training, and I'm still atleast a second off the pace most races, because the training is quick and easy, if I can beath the AI's, I'm sure everyone else can.

Quote from Becky Rose :

These kind of descrepancies will always occur in pickup racing, but with licensed racing you have a panel to appeal too and effective, non-terminal, action can be taken (banning would have been overkill - making the admins powerless to resolve such a dispute).

like what ? as youve siad it doesnt warrant a ban ... its too late for a kick and you cant fine them like youd do in real life (not that any f1 driver cares much about paying .000001% of his paycheck but still)

Quote from z3r0c00l :

I didn't mean so much the current lessons in their entirety, but, making a certain set mandatory, such as "I can follow a car round the track going slightly slower than me without smashing into the back of it, and punting them out the race". One explaining rear wheel drive, front wheel drive, the correct procedure in turn one, you get the idea.

the idea is good in principle as long as people who know all this already can pass those tests within some 10 minutes and the result would be stored on lfsw for all eternity
maybe a multiple chioce test that you can skip to if you know all the information thats asked beforehand

Quote :

With the current AI, anyone who can't keep up with them doesn't really deserve to be on a public server anyway

just because someone is slow as hell doesnt mean hell ruin anybodys race

I would just remove the tutorials and stop these silly server licencing systems.

What I find utterly stupid, though, is on the STCC you need a licence obtained in the FXO to drive the RB4, when RB4 is most definatly easier to drive with 4WD illepall