I know the dominance of GTR/Open Wheeler racing over other classes has been discussed before, but perhaps not with a specific question like this one.

Which do you enjoy more: faster cars or closer racing?

I just had a quick TBO session with a small group (5-7) racers at BL and had a blast. Slipstreaming here, overtaking there. None of us were superstar quick, but it was close clean and fun. The best racing I've had on LFS in a long time.

Later, I joined a server configured for that that stalwart of GTR racing, AS National with around 18 drivers. By turn 3, the field had spread out to it's usual 'freight train' precession. No overtaking, just waiting for the guy in front to leave the track (or disconnect) to gain a position. Challenging driving? Certainly. Fun? Not always.

My answer to my own question will always be for close racing. I love the pace and challenge of the fast cars, but will always come back to bumper to bumper action long term.

This is a racing game, not a lapping game.

I just wish there were more opportunities to race...

Quote from farcar :

I know the dominance of GTR/Open Wheeler racing over other classes has been discussed before, but perhaps not with a specific question like this one.

Which do you enjoy more: faster cars or closer racing?

Definately close racing, with about 5 of 6 people.

more people could be fun, but in the end its only going to give more trouble

hehe - and 12 months ago everyone was whining about the slow cars in lfs :P

Quote from farcar :

I just had a quick TBO session with a small group (5-7) racers at BL and had a blast. Slipstreaming here, overtaking there. None of us were superstar quick, but it was close clean and fun. The best racing I've had on LFS in a long time.
(...)
My answer to my own question will always be for close racing. I love the pace
and challenge of the fast cars, but will always come back to bumper to bumper
action long term.

This is a racing game, not a lapping game.

This is why i say LFS is a game simulating car racing.

Hackers, lamers, spammers, bumpdrafters, wreckers, 'wangers', dangerous
n00bs, killer tr00pz, rat packs and the guy out back, won't move her, push
him to the side, but the killer is the ride YOU'RE in, damnit, real life ain't like
this, i ain't gotta prove my skills, to a teen on pills, needing adrenaline, but
lacking the discipline, no one to inform us, that he suddenly feels, like testing
the limits of 'real'. All this and more, reasons or results, show an inherent
division, between reality and simulation.

No no, i haven't gone completely insane, ok so i have, but that little part
above was intentional, it's a little adlib prose just 'cuz i felt like it

TBO races were the same in S1. What you're looking at is a group of people racing without thousands of hours put into setups etc, which leads to closer racing initially, whatever the formula. As time goes on, the speed/ability differential increases, and the races become more processional.

Quote from JohnMid1098 :

As time goes on, the speed/ability differential increases, and the races become more processional.

I'm not sure if I can agree with that. You can only get so fast, and over time more and more people will be getting close to the limit, creating close FAST racing. At the beginning races are close-ish simply because nobody is fast.

I remember some of the last MRT5 races my team had in S1. We'd all driven the car so much that by the end of a (nearly) 2 hour race everyone was still on the same lap, and places were still being fought for. That's close racing.

it doesn't matter what car you are in if the people you are playing with all have ~ equal skill, then any race will be "close"

I've had as much "close" racing in FXO GTR as with the FXO Turbo and Gti. I stay consistant with all cars, which means: slow

Slower car doesn't mean closer racing. It's all about racing times. If you get on a server where there are 6 XRRs that are all running the same time as you, there is a possibility that you'll get close, clean racing.

Obviously, closer racing with slower cars is more easy, because the times are more constant and more close from each other. For example, if you run 1.41 with the uf1 on bl1, there are alot of chances that the other times on a server will be around 1.42, 1.43 and 1.44. Besides, if you run 1.09.00 with the FOX, I can bet alot that times will go up to 1.14 or 1.15, which is obviously not good for close racing.

This is why racing in leagues, with pools is nice, you qualify on a server where people are around your times, which is a good way to get close racing.

Boosterfire.

I like the races with fast cars more, but not because they are fast. Actually I find the gti much more fun to drive, but in races people tend to behave bad as far as I've seen so far. They try to overtake me as soon as are behind me by just braking later, although they are not necessarily faster. They just hope, that I will leave room for them in the corner so they can pass, which I will of course absolutely not. This mostly leads to kickvote spam and is not much fun because it is hard to end a race without being crashed.
In the fast cars people seem to be much more careful. I also think that pushing from behind to force a mistake is much better and much more real tactic to overtake (and safer too).

Uhh... (Weird thread) Uh, well, I like the TBO class, but
I don't see as much difference with those than I do the GTR cars as far
as determining whether or not you'll have close racing. If you took
All those ppl racing in procession (lol freight train) and put them in TBO class
cars, I don't think the style of racing would change all that much, just the cars
would be different.
And speaking of TBO cars.... Man the RB4 really needs to be sped up some.
I was on a TBO server (Aston Club was the track) a few days ago.
There was not even any where near close racing, using the RB4 against the FXO
I may as well have used it against the GTR cars
Yeah, I know that it's always been that way since S-1, but in S-1 If a person was really fast, they could not only keep up, but win with the RB4......
In fact, I kinda wonder if the RB4 could even keep up with GT/GTi cars now.

Quote from jmkz :

I've had as much "close" racing in FXO GTR as with the FXO Turbo and Gti. I stay consistant with all cars, which means: slow

Really? 99% of the GTR races I've been in have either not been close at all, or had fleeting moments of closeness. I wish I was you

My thoughts are that less horsepower would usually lead to cloaser racing.

Think about it, if you are 0.5 sec later on the throttle exiting a corner in a TBO/GTI car, the guy in front might gain 10 metres on you. If you are 0.5 secs later in the the FO8, you might end up 20 - 30 metres behind.

That's one reason why the BTCC has more wheel to wheel action than F1.

Wow, the title of this thread is simply brilliant.

Personally I think it's a bit of a falacy that slower cars will produce closer racing. In my experience I find that mistakes in the slower cars are more costly and your chances of re-catching someone of similar skill is less likely.
I also don't think it's right to consider close dicing as the be all and end all of racing, maybe in short sprints but in longer races there generally isn't as much dicing but so many other factors start to come into the race.

Quote from jmkz :

it doesn't matter what car you are in if the people you are playing with all have ~ equal skill, then any race will be "close"

I've had as much "close" racing in FXO GTR as with the FXO Turbo and Gti. I stay consistant with all cars...

I was gonna say something similar but i guess it'd be less typing just to quote someone else :P

I've had some really close crazy battles for position in the GTI, theturbos, as well as with the gtr cars. The gtr and formula classes are faster so drafting/slipstreaming plays a bigger roll. side by side driving is rare since you can just slip stream behind someone and blow past them on the straights withthe faster cars. but there are still plenty of close battles.

In an attempt to back up my arguement somewhat, have a look at this thread where people have posted replays of close races. From memory, only one was with GTR cars (at BL with about 1 million people racing). The rest were all GTI and TBO races. No OW races were posted.

Quote from tailing :

I also don't think it's right to consider close dicing as the be all and end all of racing, maybe in short sprints but in longer races there generally isn't as much dicing but so many other factors start to come into the race.

I'd agree with you here. Endurance racing is a different kettle of racing (screwed up cliche intended), is not about dicing and is not what I was trying to get at. I still reckon that lower powered cars produce closer racing more often.
I was trying to find out 1/ If people prefer close racing over fast cars 2/ If yes, why do GTR and OW cars dominate the servers so much?

I don't personally race the GTRs that much but many here will have driven/raced/watched fast road cars will naturally want to get a new thrill out of their sim racing, there wouldn't be grids full of hot hatches and Formula Vees if people could race 911s and F3000 cars for the same amount of both money and the commitment required preparing the cars. Some of my best races have come from the road cars although people just don't seem to want to race them, no one is forcing people to join GTR or open wheel servers, I'd love to be able to fill in some FE Black or SO sprint 2 times but people just aren't interested in racing these circuits.

I personally am not a fan of pitstops in FOX raes because 1\ The car has more than a 5 lap tank 2\ In a real Formula Renault refueling requires removing the body panels.

I haven't raced the TBO class that much since S2 alpha, but here's what I think:

Less power / lower grip / lower cornering speeds don't necessarily mean closer racing. Sure you have more time to react and plan your moves, but because of that also the possibility to make a mistake is smaller than with faster cars. If you make a mistake you have a lot of catching up to do since exit speeds mean more. I'd say if you have a close race or not depends not on the choice of cars but the skills of your opponents - if they're as fast and smart as you then there's gonna be close racing whatever the cars are.

To me part of the fun is indeed the fast reactions and decisions you have to do when racing the big GTRs. It seems that either other people feel the same way or they just join the servers that have many players racing.

I think its all caused by the newness factor, when demo days were here, it was all demo cars all the time, then the TBO cars came along in s1 and everyone scooched over to them, then the mrt came along...now the gtr cars...once the newness wears off im sure things will even out again, either that or there will be a "movement" towards a differnt class, its to hard to focus and dedicate all your time to perfecting all the classes of cars haha, so mostly as far as i have seen its been 1 or two at a time..

in tbo and lrf you don't have the aero problems and an accidental bump won't spin off the one besides you (even a beginner can catch a slide in a xrt).

i really do enjoy racing in streetcars more than in racecars. the publics are definately better with streetcars. in GTRs half of the field is pitting after 1 lap.

@DodgeRacer: agreed

Quote from Fetzo :

even a beginner can catch a slide in a xrt

I can't catch big slides in any of the road cars due to the settings I have to use to make my wheel correct, otherwise it is ridiculously oversensitive, those with DFPs should remember not everyone has got such a large steering lock.

heheh funny thread name, got to be one of the best since the forum's conception

When I read post #1 I was thinking "Yeah man, he's right" but after reading more yeah its a tough one to call. Recently we have had a UF1 league race and the racing was "closer" at times, but mostly we were driving round watching each other from a distance as it takes lots longer to catch someone up in those (lesser powered) cars after a mistake.

I do miss the TBO class though, think I'll do that for our next league idea next year :up:

Indeed. In real life, slower cars provide little chances of catching up and
faster cars usually give a better chance at conpensating errors since most
of the time, you can't use all the available power, yet, in LFS we see the
opposite. My guess is that the fact that this isn't real means a lot of people
take bigger chances and can crash faster cars, well, faster, and harder,
sometimes taking out a few cars in the process (sometimes many) . It's
like the good old Skyline in GranTurismo, 1000hp, go from turn to turn in a
split second, smash into the wall 'cause it won't turn much, get back on
track and accelerate to the next turn, repeat. In a slower car, i would get
faster laps simply because i could keep the car on track. You all know how
deep you can get in the sand trap with an FO8 compared to the UFs, that
alone can be worth more time than the speed difference sometimes.

UF1000/UFR races are great because of this, very little room for error
yet you have to find room for an advantage if you want to get out of the
train. I'd have to say that i find slower races more enjoyable in LFS since
you can also rub fenders a bit and not get shuttled to the moon. There is
more close racing and that is what racing is. Racing alone isn't a race.

Racing alone is racing yourself and if you find it challenging to go alone on a circuit and lap it over and over to get the best out of yourself & the car, than racing alone.. is racing

I've spend hours lapping the Nurburgring in GT4 with a tuned Evo VIII, very fun and challenging

Quote from Fonnybone :

It's like the good old Skyline in GranTurismo, 1000hp, go from turn to turn in a
split second, smash into the wall 'cause it won't turn much, get back on
track and accelerate to the next turn, repeat.

The 1000hp supra was even more eevil!

Maybe people (maybe?) get more close races in TBO class simply because of the slower speeds so you can actually drive closer and for longer times? And the cars aren't so powerful that you can immediatelly use other people's mistakes to pass 'em... You can have close races in GTR class too, but the skill levels must be very close. I think in TBO class people with wider range of skills can have close races...in F08 it just isn't possible?