I'm somewhat new to s2 but i've already noticed the community is great.
I've also read the suggested improvements (the log, most of the threads' titles, and what i've been actually intersted in reading about) and of course there are many i'd give a + and many i'd give a -, as anybody would. I know you can't satisfy everybody, so i can only wish the things i'd like are also wanted by enough people so we'd actually see (some) of them implemented.

LFS is great BUT you can notice it's NOT made as a product you buy play and forget. And imo that's a good thing. Take the NFS games. Whatever EA wants to throw, people buy, play and sooner or later forget. Doesn't matter they took out physical damage in NFS6 and totally removed it in later games, only visual damage coming back in the NFS:Carbon. Not much to do about it than complain. It's obviously getting aimed at the arcade racers that just want eye candy, and let's face it, that kind of game DOES sell. Feels to me LFS isn't that kind of game.
Also you can't compare outsourcing (or a lot of people at least) to a few of people working on a project. Thus my suggestion would be to allow the community to contribute not only by making suggestions. I've noticed there are a lot of very usefull user made software/additions. Why not 'take advantage' of this?

Let me give you an example...car skins (paintjobs). In theory you can simply copy the default skin, open it in paint, draw some lines and you've got your own (more or less crappy) skin. But i stumbled upon master skinners' kits (http://www.master-skinnerz.com/). Imo, that's a GREAT thing those guys did. Creating a good skin is simply easier. Creating a lot of crappy skins is also easier, but you don't have to use them. Anyway, i think everybody agrees it's a great thing you can upload your skin and others can see it. There will always be nasty coloured cars, but that's nothing compared to the great number of awesome paintjobs i've noticed.

I'd like to point out my favourite NFS game: NFS Porsche. Best physics in all the NFS series (imo at least). Main problem? Only porsches. Not long after the release talented coders made software that unpacked the paintjobs to something you can edit and packed them back to a file the game could read. You guess what happened: loads of awesome skins, loads (but fewer) awfull ones. Simple solving: don't download, don't use.
Short remark: you could only tune the downforce, toe-in/toe-out, suspension stiffness, gear ratio and tyre pressure iirc.
Next, a .sim editor was created. The sim file would be something like the .set file, only it also contained the default height of the springs, default damper settings, power output of the engine and a lot of stuff i forgot.
The game offers a list of parts that modify those default values when added to the car (for example car weight, engine power, etc.) but you could only tune a few of those parameters.
As soon as this simeditor was created, people started modifying the in-game cars and, along with the paintjobs, some GREAT new cars were created. Of course a whole lot of BS was also created.
If you've read this far, you might want to search for 'nfs cars' on your favourite search engine and check out some of the websites. Problem was, still only porsches.
In autumn 2006 a great guy (i can't remember his name) managed to 'crack' the code of the 3d models of the cars. I'm not sure if there's an editor out, but anyway, it didn't take long for Skylines, STI-s, EVO-s, Camaros, Corvettes, Vipers, Ferraris (and mostly anything that comes to mind) to be available. Same solution for the whole heap of crap: don't download.
Yes, i loved that game and i'm not ashamed to admit it.
Let's go back a bit now to NFS:High Stakes. Not long after its release there was a software called carcad (similar to autocad, yes) available that allowed anybody with a bit of knowledge to create a car from scratch. Great cars with high enough poly count to look very good but still low enough not to just sit and watch it spin in the garage were very soon created. I'm not sure if there ever was a way to create new tracks, but i guess there was.
Anyway, what i'm trying to point out is that the modding community contributed a LOT and i do mean a LOT to those games.
You might be thinking i'm a NFS fan that's in the wrong place, but i'm just doing my best to support my opinion.Here's (yet) another example...
Just in case any of you played any game of The Elder Scrolls series, you definetly know how the modding community can improve a game.
If you didn't, think of any single player RPG game. I've really 'felt' the modders contribution while playing TES4:Oblivion. The producers released minor add-ons at minor prices (5$ or so iirc) but a version of those was already available in different forms for free, thanks to 'people that have too much spare time'. To put it simple, their major quest add-on contains a simple and rather boring set of dungeons that, when completed, give a not-so-worth-the-money-and-time reward. On the other hand, there are a lot of player-made quests that are a lot more interesting to complete and that actually give you a feeling of satisfaction when you complete them.
This thread should've been named 'simple opinion with an afwully long support' .
Let me go on (with supporting) now by commenting on some suggestions from the log (http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=2626).

Just imagine there's a way to edit the cars for example. In one week there will be 500 new cars available, most of which are not worth the time to look at. But there might be 10 or at least 1 that would be a great addition. Imo, if there would be at least 1, the purpose is achieved.
Look at the cars we'd want...karts, dragsters,trucks, baja bugs, diesel, rotary, soon somebody will post three-wheeled (bikes is already there).
Well, somebody somewhere will take the time to create these. Now, along with this, a nice feature for the server (host) would be to:
1. use add-on cars in multiplayer.
2. allow the players that joined to download it (think of the skin feature)
3. restrict usage to a set of cars (this would allow 'pure' servers to continue existing).

For example i don't agree with having bikes, i can't imagine how i'd drive a bike with a steering wheel, seems funny to me. No problem, i don't download and install any bike (or maybe just for fun) and never ever join a server that runs bikes.

The same goes for tracks. I for example would love to have rally stages (going from point A to point B type), along with rally cars, and in multiplayer the server option to enable/disable collision. Suppose we could edit the cars/tracks, after a while there would be some very good quality tracks and cars available, leaving the decision of which to use to the hosts.
This would very probably somehow split the community into grip racers, drifters, dragsters, rally-ers,... .
If this would be possible, then the devs could focus on the most important things: damage, weather, daylight (that could turn into night during a 24h moe race ), track surfaces (ice), and why not something that i thought was already in: after enough laps and rubber on the road you 'd have more grip on the optimum line. And on anything else on that suggestion log.

One might say there will be a lot more requests then, but i think that will only happen at the beginning.
For example,a few things that are already posted, but that i'd bet would come up anyway:
-locked diffs (requested for rally stages)
-button to toggle diff lock (rally stages)
-false start option(drag racing for the least)
-adjustable and/or on button rev limiters (drag racing)
-server option to disable collision (rally stages, drift races, opponents could be ghost cars)
-server option to force a setup or only allow some modifications
-along with the forced setup, the 'push-to-pass' (server enabled) would suddenly become a nice thing to have too.

I guess i've said too much already ...i'm putting on my flame-proof pants, egg and tomato protection helmet and pressing 'submit'.

Quote from apo3d :

LFS is great BUT you can notice it's made as a product you buy play and forget.

Really? I actually couldn't disagree more. Other games I play and forget, LFS keeps entertaining me.

Quote :

Also you can't compare outsourcing (or a lot of people at least) to a few of people working on a project. Thus my suggestion would be to allow the community to contribute not only by making suggestions. I've noticed there are a lot of very usefull user made software/additions. Why not 'take advantage' of this?

Because that's not the direction the devs want to take. They create it, follow their own route and they want to keep it that way. But at the same time they do take suggestions from the community in consideration.

Quote :

Just imagine there's a way to edit the cars for example. In one week there will be 500 new cars available, most of which are not worth the time to look at. But there might be 10 or at least 1 that would be a great addition. Imo, if there would be at least 1, the purpose is achieved.

Actually, it would create chaos. I certainly wouldn't think the purpose would be achieved at all, quite the contrary.
Stuff like this has been brought up so many times, there's really a lot of downsides to this, rFactor is living proof of that.

You are comparing NFS to LFS, which is pretty pointless. They are completely different games. NFS is mainly single player oriented, LFS is very multiplayer oriented. Not to mention they have completely different audiences.

Quote from apo3d :

Big Post (ooh er)

:yikes:

Quote from joen :

Really? I actually couldn't disagree more. Other games I play and forget, LFS keeps entertaining me.

Err, that was a typo , forgot the -NOT-.

I'm not comparing them, not intentionally at least. I'm just trying to give an example with what i know .

This is just my opinion and i felt the need to write it here .

I wouldnt like to see LFS diluted anymore than it is at the moment, added more cars would do that.

It's a struggle to find a decent race in certain classes of cars already, without diluting it with more and more different car types.

Well to tell you guys the truth im very happy with LFS . As a LFS and GTR Fan i miss one thing in LFS that GTR mastered , and that is >>> RAIN . I would love to drive the FZR or FOX or whatever when its raining or when the road is wet . That would be for me the only thing i would ad in LFS . I know everyone has is taste and bla bla , but dont you guys think that RAIN would bring a little more adrenalin and fun in the game ?

GTR hasn't mastered rain in the slightest. To me I see no difference to what GP4 achieved 5/6 years ago. I'd rather rain comes later on in LFS and done properly with more variables in the grip coming down to the track condition before it rained. GTR just seems to go grip = grip - 40

Loads of people want rain and night etc and so do I but I can guarantee that it will rarely get used in the public servers as people wont like the challenge.

I don't really want rain as such, but varying track conditions (temperature, rubber abrasion, wet-humid-dry, dirt etc.) would be an awesome addition. But there's really no use in debating this as often as we do on this forum, as it will not come in the near future or even before S3.

As for the OP: I haven't read the post entirely (lol), but if it comes down to car mods, I'm with danowat:

Quote from danowat :

I wouldnt like to see LFS diluted anymore than it is at the moment, added more cars would do that.

It's a struggle to find a decent race in certain classes of cars already, without diluting it with more and more different car types.

Quote from Linsen :

I haven't read the post entirely (lol)

thanks for your opinion then

Quote from apo3d :

thanks for your opinion then

Uhm, now you made me read through all of this only to find out that my skim-reading skills are obviously not too bad, as it does come down to modding .

True, it does go down to modding, but not just car modding. I've used cars/tracks as an example for the whole idea.
Plus i don't agree with people that only read last posts, or that have bad skim-reading skills .
What i still don't understand is why you guys are so biased against modding. I'm guessing you're imagining a heap of cars / tracks in your menu, but what i'm thinking of is something totally different.
If you want to download a user-made car / track, there has to be a way to put it in an additional menu or access it via command line, without overwriting the pure cars/tracks. Same goes for joining a non-pure server.
If you'd never join such a server and never download any additional material, there would be nothing changed. I really don't see what's so bad with simply having the opportunity to do such a thing, while still having the option NOT to.
I think i tried rFactor demo, at least i remember i downloaded something that was supposed to be a 'community-made' type of game and the only thing i remember was the arcade feeling i had. I've played it for maybe 10 minutes just to make sure i'm right about the arcade part. I'll download it again and see if that's the one and say something about it.
Only game i can think of that's using this 'open' way is Second Life. Seems to me it's a huge success. I don't have the time to play it, but i honestly would just for the pleasure of things like designing and placing my own chair in the house i designed myself.
Maybe it's just me...

edit: Oh, forgot to mention this...i am very pleased with LFS, i just felt i should say this. Still have my flame-proof pants on (dunno who said this, but it seems funny as hell to me), i will always agree with stating an opinion no matter how wrong / stupid / whatever others may think it is.

Quote from apo3d :

What i still don't understand is why you guys are so biased against modding. I'm guessing you're imagining a heap of cars / tracks in your menu, but what i'm thinking of is something totally different.

The problem is that the already relatively small userbase will get scattered around all these tracks and cars, and people would HAVE to download version 1.5.1 of this or that track and version 2.3.1 of some car to be able to find people to race against.
Not to mention having to spend time to seperate the 99% crap that would be produced from the 1% reasonable to good stuff. And no, I don't think the collective userbase would create a mechanism that would make the bad stuff go away with only the good stuff left to be used.
Besides that, there's already very low variation in combo's people play on right now, imagine how that would be with dozens of extra tracks. And people would have to learn all these tracks first so competitive racing would most likely be very sparse.

But anyway, this subject has really been discussed so many times before with differences of opinion remaining.

Funny thing, now that you said this, i actually see why you guys don't agree with modding yet. Well, one can still hope (for the community to get big enough), right?

Well, actually many people around here would like LFS to become modable sometime in the future, I guess. But we know that it will not come before after S3 (because devs don't want it [yet]). And I for one would like to see a different aproach to modding. A more centralized way, where maybe the devs would decide which mod should actually become available to LFS-users. That would not only limit the amount of available mods, and thus the diluting of the community, it would also spare people the hassle to find out if a mod is any good or just pure crap. Because all mods would have to meet the same (or higher) standards like the original game.

Quote from Linsen :

..where maybe the devs would decide which mod should actually become available...

i'm not sure if i said that in the main post, but i must say this is one of the best ways to deal with this. although at some point it might mean dev's attention being drawn to mod testing , thus no time actually spared, it would guarantee the quality.
This is actually hard to acomplish, mainly because the mod either:
1. has to be submitted to the devs
2. is already out there and a group of people might like it,so even though devs will vote against it, what would unavailable mean? not included in the main download?

ps and offtopic: wasn't there a ramp amongst the objects on the autocross area?!

They should concentrate in developing a better physics since there still are lots of big mistakes like when you crash against a wall and your car goes 50meters in the air spinning around for like 10 seconds

Day-Evening-Night transition shouldn't be that hard to implement and would be a nice addition for those who run endurance competitions

2 Cars and 2 Tracks every 6 months is all I need to keep me fired up

Quote from Linsen :

Well, actually many people around here would like LFS to become modable sometime in the future, I guess. But we know that it will not come before after S3 (because devs don't want it [yet]). And I for one would like to see a different aproach to modding. A more centralized way, where maybe the devs would decide which mod should actually become available to LFS-users. That would not only limit the amount of available mods, and thus the diluting of the community, it would also spare people the hassle to find out if a mod is any good or just pure crap. Because all mods would have to meet the same (or higher) standards like the original game.

This is what I'd really like to see. We know the devs have limited time and resources but there are a lot of talented people in the LFS community. I don't want to see LFS opened up to mods because of "the rFactor", but I do want to see more tracks and cars. I think it would be really cool if the devs were open to submissions of cars and tracks. If I can design a quality car that's completely modeled and which could be easily added to LFS, it would be great to see it included. They could even have a contest every few months. Submit a car model and the best one gets included in LFS. You could win a copy of LFS and maybe get your name included in the credits and the devs get the rights to the model. The same could be done for tracks or, perhaps, track designs that Eric could then model.

As already said, there will be no sanctioned/legal modding before S3 is finished (if ever). At that time the devs will have a lot of time to test mods (if they should choose to do so :tilt, as they won't have to work on the main programme anymore. But for now, S2 is not even final.

i support your effort, and i think you are right.
(i just want to add GP2 and GP3 which had a great modding comunity as well)

yep they were all (almost) singleplayer oriented, but that is because of the technical evolution of the internet...

BUT (and this but is really huge, i mean huger then bushs incompetence)

you will not find not much ear in this or any lfs forum, because most of the people stick to the opinion of the devs, which is: modding won't be good for the game at this phase of it.


i think the damage model is far off from finished, as well as the aero-model so i think it would not make sens to have new cars because they will need a full rework if there is something changing which the devs can't guarantee if its not one of their cars. BUT i don't see any reason why they don't take in some new tracks evey now and then, produced by the community...



anyway, keep up your article writing! sometimes we will get:....

Quote from Fischfix :

you will not find a ear in this or any lfs forum, because most of the people stick to the oppinion of the devs, which is: modding won't be good for the game at this phase of it.

You know, it might, it just MIGHT, be people's OWN opinion.
It's bullshit noone on any LFS forum is prepared to listen. If noone would listen, noone would even respond to it.

Quote from Cue-Ball :

This is what I'd really like to see. We know the devs have limited time and resources but there are a lot of talented people in the LFS community. I don't want to see LFS opened up to mods because of "the rFactor", but I do want to see more tracks and cars. I think it would be really cool if the devs were open to submissions of cars and tracks. If I can design a quality car that's completely modeled and which could be easily added to LFS, it would be great to see it included. They could even have a contest every few months. Submit a car model and the best one gets included in LFS. You could win a copy of LFS and maybe get your name included in the credits and the devs get the rights to the model. The same could be done for tracks or, perhaps, track designs that Eric could then model.

+999999

Quote from Fischfix :

i support your effort, and i think you are right.
(i just want to add GP2 and GP3 which had a great modding comunity as well)

i didn't get to play any of those, that's why there's no mention of them

Quote from Fischfix :

yep they were all (almost) singleplayer oriented, but that is because of the technical evolution of the internet...

BUT (and this but is really huge, i mean huger then bushs incompetence)

you will not find not much ear in this or any lfs forum, because most of the people stick to the opinion of the devs, which is: modding won't be good for the game at this phase of it.

i think the damage model is far off from finished, as well as the aero-model so i think it would not make sens to have new cars because they will need a full rework if there is something changing which the devs can't guarantee if its not one of their cars. BUT i don't see any reason why they don't take in some new tracks evey now and then, produced by the community...

I was suggesting this for sometime in the future of course. New cars are worthless compared to say having a car made out of parts that can fly off, bend, break...

Here's an interesting thing i've just found...

Unofficial Add-ons database http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=2928

Amongst those, there's a snow mod with a lot of positive comments. So this proves i'm not illepall. Not totally at least .

One more thing i've found to be very very interesting:
AutoCross Layouts database
http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=8939

The second proves that although there are a lot of autocross layouts made, somebody took the time to say 'this is nice,this is crap' and just put the nice ones in a list. I might be wrong though, but will start checking those out very soon.

Quote from Fischfix :

anyway, keep up your article writing! sometimes we will get:....

it isn't the first time i'm advised to write in smaller blocks or maybe start my post with an index(table of contents)

i like long articles, this just proves someone is making his thoughts about something and isn't just writing something like "would be kinda cool to have some really nice motionblur, you know the one from nfs-overground when pressing NOS injection!"

I would just like to say that modding can make a game horribly bad. I've come to prefer games such as LFS and GT Legends for their non-moddable vehicles, simply because the cars are so much better off for it.

LFS has great multiplayer simplicity, you start it and you play. We see from the community how awesome this simplicity has made it. Yes, people haven't modded it, but they have started hundreds of teams, leagues, championships, cups, series. They have created thousands of unique skins and now lastly have come the STCC which is just incredible.

All the efforts have been made into creating a spectacular racing _scene_, which I think is much better than if all these people are milling around creating some washed out replica of a Ferrari F430 or BMW M3.


So a big thanks for me for the non-modding, I think that has partially made LFS to what it is.

Quote from Fischfix :

yep they were all (almost) singleplayer oriented, but that is because of the technical evolution of the internet...

You've hit the nail on the head. Single player games have no miss-matches with different versions. It's up to you the user to decide what you add to your game and it wont cause any problems. I played GP4 for a long time because of modding but that was down to its lack of multiplayer.

LFS is the most sucessful online racing game. Look at any other game and try find the numbers you find online in LFS. The reason for this? The simplicity of getting into a race. No faffing about looking for Silverstone V0.4566778.2 or Renault F1 v0.002 which is then on crapidshare but you can't download anything from there as it doesn't work.

Modding and online gaming will never work alongside each other unless the game has a system built into it to deal with it and even then that would annoy the hell out of most people waiting for huge amount of files to download, killing the 56k side of the community.

The developers couldn't approve mods. They would be officially linking themselves with copyrighted material and I very much doubt they want the likes of Bernie or Sony banging on their door .