This was something that I was wondering about at 3am this morning when I couldn't sleep, How accessible is LFS to disabled people? By 'disabled' I don't just mean people with missing limbs, but the whole range of disabilities.

And should more be done to make it accessible?

DK

I seem to remember there was a racer a while back with physical disabilities.

I think LFS itself is fairly accessible, but the controllers that are used aren't that great for people with disabilities.

There are/were quite a few guys with disabilities - visual, audio and other physical. I believe one even used his tongue to race (whether or not that was a hoax, who knows?)!

Generally I think you're right that whilst LFS does pretty well (big buttons for instance), things could be better. Unfortunately producing programs and code with a usability slant is often quite hard if you're not in a particular minority or group, and have no way of sitting down and talking with someone who is and is actually interesting in what you're producing.

IIRC there is/was a thrustmaster wheel with analogue paddles that someone was using as they didn't have the use of their legs.

my ex has tried it a few times and she has no right hand and uses a prosphetic to hold the wheel. she drives a manual car and has no special controls fitted and convinced the licencing people that she didn't need any conditions on her licence


for what its worth she's one of the fastest drivers in real life that i've ( been terrified by) sat beside

she also rides motor bikes and once got a warning from the police for puling a 200 yd wheelie

p.s. she's also one hell of a kick boxer

If I were you I will stay away from the computer now and do the dishes.

an ex-teammate of mine from The Netherlands, (abkomen i think was his username) was in a wheelchair and couldn't use his legs. he used the padels on the back of the thrustmaster as his throttle and brake. he was quick enough back in the S1 days

Quote from nikimere :

an ex-teammate of mine from The Netherlands, abkomen i think his username was was in a wheelchair and couldn't use his legs. he used the padels on the back of the thrustmaster as his throttle and brake. he was quick enough back in the S1 days

I think that's the dude I was thinking of. Did he used to post on RSC ?

yep!

I suppose you can use any controller than works through directinput, and there are a few handy driving aids, so that makes LFS pretty available to people with physical disabilities. And the force-feedback is very good, so that's another plus. I still doubt a blind user would get much out of it though.

The point about visual difficulties is very close to my heart. I'm blind in one eye and short-sighted in the other, and also have a very messed up brain. I was thinking of getting in touch with Victor and Scawen and Eric and talking to them about this. Several people at the college I went to were interested, but they didn't have much sight, and it frustrated them not being able to race. I tried to work on an enlarged GUI a while back, but gave up, as all the buttons merged together and you couldn't tell which was which.

@thisnameistaken: Regarding blind users, I've heard of some pretty amazing things done with speech software, but I doubt LFS could be done, unless there is some way to let them memorise everything and drive from memory (I tried this and failed, as some of you who raced me well know. I'm a lousy racer in general.), but I'm not sure how successful this would be, but it's worth a shot, yes? (Also, it could be advantageous not just for blind users, but for other disabled people too.)

DK

Well, Windoze addresses most visual audio disabilities, narrator, windows screen zoom feature etc.

So those of you with audio/visual disabilities who are running LFS on a Windows platform should not have too much trouble imo, as they could run LFS in a window and have the windoze zoom feature look at the certain parts of the screen they have trouble seeing!

#DieKolkrabe, what area do you feel needs addressing?

Quote from DieKolkrabe :

@thisnameistaken: Regarding blind users, I've heard of some pretty amazing things done with speech software, but I doubt LFS could be done, unless there is some way to let them memorise everything and drive from memory (I tried this and failed, as some of you who raced me well know. I'm a lousy racer in general.), but I'm not sure how successful this would be, but it's worth a shot, yes? (Also, it could be advantageous not just for blind users, but for other disabled people too.)

There was a user a couple of months ago who was talking about writing an inSim application to create holophonic sound for LFS. I wondered if this could be taken further, with sounds providing information about how far ahead a corner is, which direction it turns, what the radius is, etc. - all the while with the sound being represented in 3D, so when you're at the apex or the outside kerb you know about it! But then I wouldn't know if this sort of interface would even be useful to visually-impaired people.

I had a broken leg about 4 month ago - so I put my pedals near my wheel, and pressed them with my right hand - hard to get used to but accesible
(I just couldnt press the pedals with one leg - the cast was enormous and took almost all space under my small PC table)

I read about the sound, do you know who was working on it, as I'll PM him/her and talk about it. I know a few people who could test it.

@thisnameistaken: It would be. People (Blind people especially) can build a 3d image just by sound alone, I've done it before when walking my dorms at night (rotten sleeper)

@CSU1: Windows does have these sorts of things, but they aren't that good for games. If somebody could code some sort of Insim app, like the sound mentioned earlier, and possibly have a sighted racer helping them...I'd have no worries about racing with blind people (I spent 2 years among 'em at college), but I'm not sure how the rest of the community would take it.

I'm still waiting for the devs' word(s) on this.

Quote from JJ72 :

If I were you I will stay away from the computer now and do the dishes.

LOL! Indeed.

Quote from DieKolkrabe :

I read about the sound, do you know who was working on it, as I'll PM him/her and talk about it. I know a few people who could test it.

@thisnameistaken: It would be. People (Blind people especially) can build a 3d image just by sound alone, I've done it before when walking my dorms at night (rotten sleeper)

@CSU1: Windows does have these sorts of things, but they aren't that good for games. If somebody could code some sort of Insim app, like the sound mentioned earlier, and possibly have a sighted racer helping them...I'd have no worries about racing with blind people (I spent 2 years among 'em at college), but I'm not sure how the rest of the community would take it.

I'm still waiting for the devs' word(s) on this.

Well, you're thoughts on exactley what areas need looking at?
I mean, it's all well and good saying SCAWEN MAKE SOMETHING FOR US, but what exactly can you imagine working with what part of the sim?
Ok, lets take you're case here, you are visually impared, you will have to explain what it is like to drive the sim?
As you saidan audible aid would help,but how? with what part of the sim?, or maybe highlighted areas of the screen to make recognition of turns etc. easer too see?

EDIT: TBH, I can't really see an audible aid working, it would just confuse the driver, ok if you where a dolphin you probably could tell the difference between different audio frequencies/sounds, but the kind of in-sim app required to guide you around the track would need to be awsomely complex!
I was'nt trying to be a smart arse there, I just dont think its practical to develop this kind of audible system.
Maybe clearer recognition of the turns is you're best bet ie: Having one of our community members make a asphalt and grass texture that could make the track easier too see?

Agreed. Like I said, I'd be willing to talk with Scawen, Eric and Victor and test ideas from the community. I'm not sure a brighter texture would work, as some people have difficulty seeing bright colours.

@csu1 I'll explain what it's like to drive the sim in a sentence. Frustrating, knowing there are people out there that have no visiual problems, and they seem so much better than you. Add that the the fact that nobody seems to care if you have a visual problem or not (I've even been told I'm lying and kicked from servers for it.), which really annoys me. That's one reason I'm taking a break. The other one is that I deleted my LFS folder in a moment of stupidity.

The audible idea probably wouldn't work in pack racing, unless you muted the other car's engines, or had a sighted racer acting as the blind racer's eyes, but again, that's open to abuse (e.g. sighted racer telling the blind racer to wreck cars, then claiming he/she did nothing).

EDIT: Idea. Colour the .dds files. (Not my idea.)

DK

looks a bit strange tho'

I like it. Anybody want to test it online?

DK

get someone at college to test 4 ya DK

I'm sorry to say but if you're blind then there really isn't much you can do when it comes to video games. This is only my opinion of course and I'm sure it will come back to bite me in the arse.

But from where I'm sitting all I have to go on when I'm playing LFS is my eyes and ears, I do not use FF and I have no £250,000 real world simulator terminator cyborg thing.

So what do you propose?

That people follow a sighted car around a virtual race track to experience what it would be like driving a real car on a real track? Its hard enough for me to feel really fully immersed into the action with two seeing eyes and semi-working ears! And this to me doesn't sound like racing but a guided tour and we all know how much they suck.

As for coloured textures and stuff, that sounds like a great idea although the screenies CSU1 posted do look a bit iffy illepall

Quote from Rooble :

I'm sorry to say but if you're blind then there really isn't much you can do when it comes to video games. This is only my opinion of course and I'm sure it will come back to bite me in the arse.

But from where I'm sitting all I have to go on when I'm playing LFS is my eyes and ears, I do not use FF and I have no £250,000 real world simulator terminator cyborg thing.

So what do you propose?

That people follow a sighted car around a virtual race track to experience what it would be like driving a real car on a real track? Its hard enough for me to feel really fully immersed into the action with two seeing eyes and semi-working ears! And this to me doesn't sound like racing but a guided tour and we all know how much they suck.

As for coloured textures and stuff, that sounds like a great idea although the screenies CSU1 posted do look a bit iffy illepall

ROFL, yes a bit dodgy aiight, but I just trying to get a rough(really rough) idea of what will work

Quote from Rooble :

As for coloured textures and stuff, that sounds like a great idea although the screenies CSU1 posted do look a bit iffy illepall

Yeh, but I could use bright pink tarmac, green gravel and kerbs with pictures of burgers on but still navigate the track. Although it would seem like there was an /lsd_mode command in LFS.

When I broke my leg a two or three years ago (I still walk with a slight limp), I used a pad (OK, not for LFS but for various other things). I could have just used a stick to operate the brakes, but I doubt that that would have worked too well).

Due to the fact that there are a number of LFS drivers with disabilities (and this point was raised), it would not be sensible to implement the forced clutch axis and H-gate silly idea.

Quote from duke_toaster :

Yeh, but I could use bright pink tarmac, green gravel and kerbs with pictures of burgers on but still navigate the track. Although it would seem like there was an /lsd_mode command in LFS.

LOL ffs guy's Im just tryin ta help here ROFL [lsd cmd]