It might be known to some of you that I despise(d) ISI physics. Since 1999 (F1 2000) not a single release or mod convinced me. Oversteer behaviour was so wrong, countersteering was.. counterproductive. And if, with a random combination of panic inputs, you thought you came out of a slide alive, you would be thrown off the track in the other direction. Driving a car needs confidence and I never had any with ISI games, even though I could 'learn' to be 'quick', doing top 50 or top 100 laptimes. It just never had anything to do with driving a race car.

LFS has always been a lot better at simulating a car 'over the limit'..

The last two days have been very strange. After reading the discussion on rFactor 'drifting' at RSC, I asked JTBo what his rFactor Volvo project was about and - Thanks! JTB! - I got access to the beta, which made my jaw drop. Normal car inputs work, car 'balance' (throttle / power) works.. A pretty good dream, except it was for real!

I liked the idea of the 79 mod for rFactor but also couldn't drive it. While they changed the lateral tyre curve, they also kept lots of 'bad' stuff in there. I simply turned off most non linear effects (load sensitivity / camber effect on grip / speed effects / heat / wear) to see what a 'pure' more realistic set of grip curves would do to the 1979 Ferrari. I also added 10..15% inertia (values seemed low) and put the COG 2 centimeters higher.

I know there are a few ISI .. dislikers here on the LFS forum, although I must've been up there in the top 3.. I made a short video of just some outtakes, showing proper car behaviour and control. I only spun a few times, and even that looks pretty good. I crashed only when really being very eager. I *never* disagreed! How is that..

I'm baffled / stunned / amazed.

It is still HORROR to actually build a car for rFactor, there are no proper physics tools to analyze suspensions, 'check' tyres etc. Its all very very bad in this respect. But guess what.. The physics engine works if you provide realistic, even though very basic, data!

I hope the video is very un-ISI like, as that sure is how it drives!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cevxP5GtD68

Edit, it is 5:44 at night. That hasn't happened since Grand Prix Legends!

axus' curves for gtr2 had the same effect on me ... the basic physics and force combining etc is all rather good in isi sims ... well at the least it works

but i cant be arsed to play a sim where everybody believes tyre curves that drop off into nothingness and ffb that comes from the rear tyres are realistic

Most FF comes from cogwheels / motors in your average logitech wheel though

Since I don't use FF I haven't experienced how poorly it is done in ISI. It is bad that for years they've added brake fade, brake duct effect on drag and creating FF that 'feels' better.. While not touching the tyre data.

But now that I saw the light (still darkness here and there) I am happy to get the chance of driving some great cars and great tracks, even if most are sub par, at least I now have some idea how to make the handling good.

While I am totally against LFS being 'moddable' (the horror!) I also find it frustrating that I can't play with the tyre model / develop a better understanding for the pros and cons of LFS. This 'need' I can now look after in ISI. Though I already know I won't be doing much of that as long as Notepad is the 'car design lab'

Quote from Niels Heusinkveld :

Most FF comes from cogwheels / motors in your average logitech wheel though

when the alternative is a wheel with no centre whatsoever ill gladly take the logitech wheels any day

Welcome to the enlightened side... when you give rFactor some proper data, you do get proper results

nice. hopefully someone fixes the useless ffb and then I might play the game...

For how long are "we" (actually, mostly Todd) preaching the no-drop-off tyre curves now? For quite a while, I'm sure. Your "revelation" - the source for crap handling in ISI games - has been pointed out numerous times, yet is still ignored. Maybe that thread changes something, probably not. It might have made more users over there aware of what is wrong, but as long as the mod makers don't have the will to try something new, the overall situation won't change. I think many people still believe that "ISI made it, therefore it's correct".

If the developers of rFactor2 makes the wise decision to actually use the info Todd has posted many times, then that might be the turning point of unrealistic handling in ISI games, probably so much that you might be able to call it a "sim" already.

Played it, been there, done that and deleted the thing. OMG someone counter steering a slide and getting a way with it if in rTractor. TBH i have played arcade games in a arcade with better counter steering then in rTractor

3 words to describe rTractor

rTractor = delete delete delete

The point is, with the simple changes Niels tried, counter steering supposedly works

Quote from JamesF1 :

Welcome to the enlightened side... when you give rFactor some proper data, you do get proper results

Name one single other mod that isn't utterly utterly crap to drive then? You can't say welcome to the enlightened side if the enlightened side is wrong. What has happened here is a NEW side (that very few people have experienced) that is way closer to handling vaguely correctly. If you haven't driven it and still think rFactor is actually any good then you need to recalibrate your senses

If you put the right data in, you get the proper results, but not one single mod has actually done this yet. And the 'right' data might not actually be 'good' data.

Little correction, my mod is pre-alpha actually, at least I think that it still has so much work to do

I know that I have best damage in my mod, but in physics there is lot to be tweaked, sure it has better behaviour in many situations, but there are few things that are rather unrealistic currently, what is unrealistic is just different than in other mods, but at least I can say that my mod feels more like driving a car already than other mods.

Hopefully this time more modders really start to test these things todd has explained, learning to make good mods is about testing new ways, ideas etc. testing limits and stretching them is also good thing, sure it takes lot of time, I have made mod over a year now and looks like that I will be making long time still as I do it pretty much alone except 3d models.

I'm not still 100% sure that rFactor curves would work out precisely same as real world data, if programmers have understood function of curves differently then it might be needed to make curves look bit funny, but I think basics should come from what Todd has shown to us.

Interesting times surely, everyone just keep your mind open, listen and understand, judge different opinions after trough testing, that way it is possible to learn more

Quote from tristancliffe :

Name one single other mod that isn't utterly utterly crap to drive then?

Bettle race, E46 M3, Caterhams, and maybe Formula BMW and Protoracer standout as being the better ones, first three are driftable and controllable on a race setup, much like LFS, however the Bettles are particularly nice to drive because they don't feel completely rigid like the cars in LFS, whether it's genuine chassis flex or compensated for in other areas they still feel great.

Quote from Niels Heusinkveld :

Since I don't use FF

just curious, what wheel are you using?

Quote from Niels Heusinkveld :

Since I don't use FF I haven't experienced how poorly it is done in ISI.

I don't know how can you play without FF... i mean, every game feels the same for me, when i turn off FF..
It's useless for the games like Colin series, NFS, etc.. but for games like LFS, RBR, i can't imagine driving without FF now..
It tels me exactly what is going on with the car, am i on the edge, what is happening with the tyres, i can feel all that (talking about LFS of course), and i haven't felt that stuff in rFactor or any other ISI sims..
I mean, i know that i am not holding a real wheel, and that some motor is giving me the "feel" that i am driving a car, but it can give you pretty good feeling like in a real car, if done properly (like in LFS)..

FFB is not necessarily needed, it is quite possible to drive without it and as current FFB technology is rather old it is also slow and all effects are more or less delayed.

It can provide information from car behaviour, but it will also be something that fights against, very unnatural way.

I do use FFB, but force levels are very low because I really hate it how wheel is lagging behind when I make quick correction.

@Boris - without any dynamic conditions you can learn to drive a sim and be competitive without the extra feedback from FF, and for some people it can be better when I raced N2003 (road course racing) I know some of the fast people used high quality non-FF wheels because they were so much smoother and more precise than the wheels of the time (although ironically N2003 had excellent FF).

It's like saying you'll no doubt find it easier to learn to be quick with a full motion simulation but in the end of the day there will be a point where you can be just as fast without.

Of course also without FF you get far better understanding of the physics of the sim in isolation from feedback.

Whats the point in doing that mod of RFactor when you have games like Grand Prix Legends?

Quote from ATC Quicksilver :

Whats the point in doing that mod of RFactor when you have games like Grand Prix Legends?

I don't understand your question, can you explain it bit more, please?

I know it's not 100% fast, and that the technology is not that advanced, but without FF, i feel totaly disconnected with the car, i mean it's no difference than driving with keyboard or mouse.. i can't get immersed..
Maybe the FF is slow while countersteering, even with the G25 probably.. but, when you drive normaly, the FF is VERY MUCH usable because you feel the forces of the tires, you feel the grip, you feel the bumps, the curbs... and it is NOT delayed at all..

I think the FF discussion is an interesting one. I raced GPL from when it came out without FF, and LFS from when it came out without FF. The first time I used FF was maybe 2 years ago. Since then I got a DFP, and I'm not sure I am any faster than I was without FF, but I do feel more involved and I enjoy it more. I am probably more consistent too. I do agree though that you can be just as fast without FF.

Quote from Boris Lozac :

... and it is NOT delayed at all..

Sure, it will give lot better immersion, at least for me, but I would say that it surely is delayed, it is not like 1 second or even 0.5 seconds, it is less, but it is delayed enough that it lags behind my reactions on good day, on bad day I can't tell if there is delay or not. (this is the case with dfp at least and with Microsoft wheel it was lot worse)

But it won't affect your lap times after lot of training as you are bit ahead of wheel all time.

I think that GPL Aliens quite often used wheel without FFB support, even FFB there is much faster, it is not so much behind than in any other sim I feel.

Shotglass is right, of course; not having any 'feedback' is far from ideal. I have had a Logitech DFP and found it very poor. I want the FF wheel to do exactly what the sim tells it, and when you calculate that the DFP has a max speed that is some 8 times lower than you can see *real* wheels spinning at.. and you feel all that inertia of the 40:1 drive. Did you know that the DFP has a 'brake mechanism' that makes the motor positively resist fast turning of the wheel? This is done to limit the current going through the motor I think. Eero P (from Drivers Republic) told me that, and he has that straight from Logitech.. So the DFP doesn't come close enough. The G25 should be better but I haven't tried that yet.

Now the reason why I prefer to have no feedback at all is that my opinion is that there is only one thing worse than no feedback, and that is "often not correct" feedback, as you get with most FF wheels. I don't want to use a wheel that I learn to 'trust', and based on which I judge realism of sims, when I *know for sure* that the wheel is technically incapable of delivering what the sim tells it to. Sure there will be times when its not bad, but there will also be times when there is a big difference between wheel feedback and what the sim intended.

I realise this is also a compromise, a big one. I just see it as a 'risk' as explained above. Perhaps in 2144 when BRD releases their wheel things will change

With good sims I have never had a problem 'feeling' the car through my 'dead' wheel, going purely by graphics and sound. During my 'peak' days I was 3rd overall at the Nurburgring in GPL with a 7:53 lap.. This was 2001 or something.. I was also top 10 on some RBR stages, until everybody learned each and every bump and set insane times. I haven't done much LFS but managed a 1:24.9 at Blackwood in the GT Turbo within ~30 laps, which is not good but not horrible. Driving cars should be 'logical' and instinctal, even without FF imo.

Here is a pic of my wheel. It will get center springs eventually, using two big torsion springs I will get ~700 degrees of lock at ~3kg force. For now, I am the center spring . Its a cheap 30cm kart wheel with 4 wheel buttons, and a TSW sequential shifter. The big round thing is an optical encoder, giving a totally over the top 4096 steps per revolution precision. Any touch of the wheel registers! Over the top but pretty sexy I find! My wheel has registred about 22 steps of movement before the average DFP with slight 'cog wheel deadzone' even starts at ~2 degrees.

Don't get me wrong, no FF is a huge compromise but weighing the options I prefer it to having Logitech FF.

Interesting post Niels, thanks for the input. Although I wasn't hugely fast at GPL (8:07 at the 'Ring), I had no troubles without FF. I agree the DFP is slow and heavy when you're trying to turn the wheel quickly. For the most part though I find it alright. Hopefully one day we'll have the speed and precision of a decent non-FF wheel with FF.

When I need to drive fast, I need to reduce steering angle of dfp, it is really that slow, even I turn power from motor to 0 those gears do resists movement quite lot, luckily I have 15kg weights here so working out should help to get that damn wheel to move when I turn or then it turns and pieces of gears will come out, but that is another problem already

That wheel of yours does have some great precision indeed, it is with dfp indeed not so precise, when you turn wheel it is something around there, but that can be bit less or bit too much what you intended, usually it does not cause anything else, but I just notice it.

Quote from Niels Heusinkveld :

I have had a Logitech DFP and found it very poor. I want the FF wheel to do exactly what the sim tells it, and when you calculate that the DFP has a max speed that is some 8 times lower than you can see *real* wheels spinning at.. and you feel all that inertia of the 40:1 drive.

We agree on that, on countersteering and drifting, the curent FF technology is not near real life... BUT, i said, in normal driving, driving on the racing line, driving seriously, without oversteer etc.. the FF is very very good in LFS...
I had a go with G25, driving the XFG, and, boy, it felt like the wheel is really connected through the steering column! It felt so... REAL.. "it's like i am moving the tires with my hands" like Vicky from Fifth gear once said driving the Exige..
That is what i am talking about, and saying that FF is useless, delayed, contradictive, etc.. well, maybe in other "sims" but not in LFS for sure..