Quote from Gunn :

I've been playing musical instruments for 36 years and have no trouble mistaking rap for actual music. Maybe you need to open your ears wider?

So what do you require in order to call something music?

Quote from Gunn :

I didn't realise that you had such an evolved sense of humour. You're good!

...

I'm thinking this is sarcasm unfettered by smileys. Either that or I'm too thick to see whatever it is you read into my last response.

Edit: Definitely leaning towards sarcasm. Stop picking on Public Enemy - they really actually were clever, honest!

Quote from amp88 :

So what do you require in order to call something music?

You'll have to sample more of the world's great artists before you reach a point where you can make that judgement. It is different for everyone. But for sure you won't glean much from basing your musical appreciation on rap. That's not an insult either. Rap lacks a lot of everything. A few rap tunes once in a while have some rythmic ideas that are interesting but otherwise it's all very shallow really.

Bad poetry about their seemingly worthless lives delivered in monotone whilst pointing at each other and themselves a lot has not endured the modern era of music very well at all. After hearing Grandmaster Flash for the first time one would have thought that "rapping" showed great promise musically. Shades of funk and soul delivered in an often jovial style were good tools to start with, but these days rap is all about how bad "da hood" is and about how many wide-arse girls think you are da lawd of y'all dawgs. It is stagnant and is not going anywhere but in circles.

The rigid and simple structure of most rap songs are a key to their popularity and appeal but also restrict growth musically. Rap can't really evolve without becoming somthing different altogether. It can't move into the Hip Hop space, it's doomed to be more of the same old stuff repeating itself and putting on the same old tired rags.

An album like Pink Floyd's Dark Side Of The Moon is full of musical diamonds. These guys are all very accomplished musicians and songwriters and masters of layering musical ideas over each other in a complimentary way, whether it be contrasting or blending moods. Gilmour's guitar work is exemplary and always delivered in his unique style. Even on crappy album like The Final Cut it is Gilmour's solos that shine over Water's self-indulgent musical-rant. Excellent guitar, drums, keys and driving bass from four musicians who share a great musical rapport.
There is not a rap artist on the planet who has ever been able to produce such creations as can be found on most Pink Floyd albums, rap is too rigid to break out musically like this without becoming "not-rap".
While Pink Floyd will never be everyone's cup of tea from a taste point of view, musically they deserve all the praise they recieve.

(speaking as someone who owns a spring reverb that reputedly used to belong to Dave Gilmour... I know this means nothing, but neither do X years of musicianship qualify anyone as a critic... )

Quote from Gunn :

While Pink Floyd will never be everyone's cup of tea from a taste point of view, musically they deserve all the praise they recieve.

And all the criticism. Like you say, that Waters geezer did all the moaning and whining that you accuse Rap artists of and more. The Wall was tedious and pretentious and nearly responsible for getting me thrown out of a Norwich cinema for a public order crime. Once the mercurial Syd Barret left, Floyd only had a couple of albums left in them.

Hip Hop/Rap isn't as simplistic as you seem to think, (interesting to note that you differentiate between rap and hip hop...) but it is a genre. I grant you that... its dance music so consequently, musical novelty is a lower priority than booty shaking sociability. Its precisely this lack that makes later Floyd largely irrelevant. Watch out: contentious statement coming! Interstellar Overdrive is booty music.

Quote from Gunn :

Rap lacks a lot of everything. A few rap tunes once in a while have some rythmic ideas that are interesting but otherwise it's all very shallow really.

Bad poetry about their seemingly worthless lives delivered in monotone whilst pointing at each other and themselves a lot has not endured the modern era of music very well at all. After hearing Grandmaster Flash for the first time one would have thought that "rapping" showed great promise musically. Shades of funk and soul delivered in an often jovial style were good tools to start with, but these days rap is all about how bad "da hood" is and about how many wide-arse girls think you are da lawd of y'all dawgs. It is stagnant and is not going anywhere but in circles.

The rigid and simple structure of most rap songs are a key to their popularity and appeal but also restrict growth musically. Rap can't really evolve without becoming somthing different altogether. It can't move into the Hip Hop space, it's doomed to be more of the same old stuff repeating itself and putting on the same old tired rags.

Spoken like someone who gets their definition of what rap is from the radio. The stuff you hear on the radio and on tv is shit, most people with any taste can agree on that I think. As with all musical genres, you have to wade through that shit in order to find anything decent. You're basing your argument that rap is shallow and stagnant on what you think rap is, but I think it's your definition that's faulty. You mention Grandmaster Flash in a positive light, but you seem to think that all current (or relatively recent) rap is about pimps, hos, bling, guns and drugs. It's a common misconception I suppose, but also seriously irritating. Listen to some Common, Talib Kweli, Mos Def, De La Soul, Roots, A Tribe Called Quest, Jurassic 5 etc and I'd like to think you'd revise your opinion of rap and what it has come to be.

I just had this smexy album playing on my pooter, and now another great has started. The Wall

Quote from nihil :

(speaking as someone who owns a spring reverb that reputedly used to belong to Dave Gilmour... I know this means nothing, but neither do X years of musicianship qualify anyone as a critic... )

And all the criticism. Like you say, that Waters geezer did all the moaning and whining that you accuse Rap artists of and more. The Wall was tedious and pretentious and nearly responsible for getting me thrown out of a Norwich cinema for a public order crime. Once the mercurial Syd Barret left, Floyd only had a couple of albums left in them.

Hip Hip isn't as simplistic as you seem to think, but it is a genre. I grant you that... its dance music so consequently, musical novelty is a lower priority than booty shaking sociability. Its precisely this lack that makes later Floyd largely irrelevant. Watch out: contentious statement coming! Interstellar Overdrive is booty music.

I never said Hip Hop was good or bad, I'm not sure why you bring it up.

Syd Barrett (who is very overrated in all aspects except melody line creation) was taught guitar by Gilmour and the band went ahead in leaps and bounds once sid faded away. Any interesting lyrics written by Sid were done so when he was totally wired on all manner of drugs.
Ummagumma, Obscured By Clouds, Meddle, Animals, Wish You Were Here and Dark Side Of The Moon all appealed to me and influenced my playing and still do to this day.
I can still appreciate muscianship in songs that I despise, if musicianship is present. Even if you hate The Wall as an album, you'd have to be deaf to miss the great guitar work. Music appreciation isn't about who you like or dislike, if you truly listen to music you can seperate the good from the bad and give both a fair appraisal. I'm not interested in a "my band VS your band" argument, that would not be relevant to the subject of music appreciation.

The way that melody, rythm, bass, and harmony support and compliment a creative song structure helps to determine good from bad musically speaking. Many popular songs are lacking in these areas, but people obviously still buy them. Popular doesn't mean good. Take away the videos and many modern hits would never have left the shelves. Clever marketing accounts for a lot of CD traffic these days and a lot of great artists miss out on being heard at all. I find very little to be inspired about in rap, the substance just isn't there. If there is ever any true musical talent amongst rap artists, it's being wasted.

Quote from amp88 :

Listen to some Common, Talib Kweli, Mos Def, De La Soul, Roots, A Tribe Called Quest, Jurassic 5 etc and I'd like to think you'd revise your opinion of rap and what it has come to be.

Most of these are not foreign to me, yet I think they are very dull and lack talent. I'm not basing an argument on a definition, I'm not arguing at all.

Quote from Gunn :

I can still appreciate muscianship in songs that I despise, if musicianship is present. Even if you hate The Wall as an album, you'd have to be deaf to miss the great guitar work.

It's odd that you declare a whole genre of modern music to be stagnant and lacking creativity when your preferred musicians are blues rock guitarists.

If I'm going to listen to guitar music I'd rather listen to a band beating guitars to within an inch of their lives (The Jam, Buzzcocks, Mudhoney, The Kinks, The Pixies, Arctic Monkeys) than listen to some bloke's relentless solo waffling.

Quote from Gunn :

I never said Hip Hop was good or bad, I'm not sure why you bring it up.
.

Cause I later edited my post to signal that I'd re-read your post and seen that you make a differentiation...

I can identify musicianship in songs that I despise, but it is meaningless to me. I have no reason to appreciate it - there are lots of hard working people in the world and just because someone works to integrate various musical constituents, it doesn't make their music necessarily worth anyone's time.

Of course popular doesn't mean good. I am a fan of some of the most unpopular music on the planet (I listen to Merzbow the way some people listen to Erik Satie... Mind you, I listen to Satie quite a bit too). But even bad dance music is preferable to virtuoso, but dull musicianship.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

It's odd that you declare a whole genre of modern music to be stagnant and lacking creativity when your preferred musicians are blues rock guitarists.

If I'm going to listen to guitar music I'd rather listen to a band beating guitars to within an inch of their lives (The Jam, Buzzcocks, Mudhoney, The Kinks, The Pixies, Arctic Monkeys) than listen to some bloke's relentless solo waffling.

I don't think you know me well enough to assume what types of music I appreciate. Beating guitars within an inch of their lives is very very easy to do and doesn't require anything extrordinary in the way of musicianship. But you hint that you think blues and rock is stagnant, yet every band you mentioned (and even rap and hip hop and all modern genres) wouldn't exist without blues and wouldn't have been accepted if not for rock 'n roll. I watched Clapton on stage a few nights ago, caught BB King a little while back (he's still touring in his 80s) and both have evolved even within their own styles. Nothing stagnant about the roots of modern music. I can appreciate Tori Amos as much as I can appreciate Frank Zappa, or The Strokes, or Stone Temple Pilots, or any modern artist really.

Sometimes you'll hear a band who is crap, but the drummer is awesome. I can still enjoy his drumming even if he'd be better off with a new band. That's what I mean by truly listening to the music. Some bands are good at bringing all elements together and then you get to hear something really great, but good musical ideas are to be found even in mediocre music.

I personally play jazz, blues (traditional and electric styles), rock, bluegrass, folk, punk, metal, grunge, funk, and various forms of alternative modern music.

Quote from Gunn :

I don't think you know me well enough to assume what types of music I appreciate.

I don't think pomposity is an appropriate response when I'm obviously referring to the way you've been bleating about Dave Gilmour.

Quote from Gunn :

Beating guitars within an inch of their lives is very very easy to do and doesn't require anything extrordinary in the way of musicianship.

But if the musical end result is extraordinary, who cares? I mean really.

Quote from Gunn :

But you hint that you think blues and rock is stagnant, yet every band you mentioned (and even rap and hip hop and all modern genres) wouldn't exist without blues and wouldn't have been accepted if not for rock 'n roll. I watched Clapton on stage a few nights ago, caught BB King a little while back (he's still touring in his 80s) and both have evolved even within their own styles. Nothing stagnant about the roots of modern music.

It's a pretty slow evolution if they're still playing blues covers from the '30s. Hundreds of bands have come up with completely fresh styles of popular music in less than half the time it's taken Clapton to find his way through the simplistic 12-bar blues.

Quote from Gunn :

Sometimes you'll hear a band who is crap, but the drummer is awesome. I can still enjoy his drumming even if he'd be better off with a new band. That's what I mean by truly listening to the music.

Sounds like you get too involved in truly listening to music to actually hear it. I don't really enjoy sitting around smoking a pipe and remarking upon the finesse with which a pensioner bent a fourth up a tone. I might know how John Entwistle got that sound on My Generation, or how Dave Davies got that sound on You Really Got Me, or what record A Tribe Called Quest sampled and sped up for the funky middle 8 in Can I Kick It?, but I'm generally too busy enjoying them to get all anorak about it.

Wow you really took my post the wrong way. Anyway you should research your blues better before throwing that stuff at me.
I've stated my position and provided my valid reasons for my stance, I don't care if people want to try to make it an argument but I won't get involved. Nasty reponses show that someone gets offended when someone doesn't like something that they like. That's just insane, I'll leave you to it. What a waste of a conversation this turned out to be.

Who's the one getting all terse and snappy?

I take your point - you find little value in music that doesn't explicitly demonstrate musicianship. That's fine. It just seems to me that you're missing out on a lot of fun by taking music too seriously.

That seems to boil down to the sort of music you know is bad (or rather, not really any good) but enjoy anyway.

Oh no, not at all. My point was that snobbery can exclude you from a lot of good music. Arctic Monkeys are a good example I suppose - a bunch of kids with hardly any practice never mind training, and they came up with a cracker of a debut album.

There's something important missing from the older bands that are still recording / touring. It seems once you get old and/or rich it becomes impossible to make an interesting record. You've only got to look at Paul Weller.

Got the album today (snow day), listened to it on a HiFi whilst watching the snow and generally musing. It's bloody good.

I dare anyone to listen to DSoTM and not like it. You dont have to love it more than life itself. But I have played it to non-Floyd fans and they have borrowed it there are then. Gilmour on Guitar, with Waters' lyrics are a great combo. Still, after Roger left after The Final Cut (ironic lol) the music was still as goos as ever. Learning to fly, Sorrow, many more. Still Brilliant.
Roger Waters' solo stuff is very good. If you havnt listened to The Pro's and Con's of Hitchhiking...You really need to!!

Who? What? Never heard of them!

btw...anybody noticed my kool avatar? had it for a few months now, don't remember where it came from!


Seriously though, If Carlsberg made albums, they would probably sound NEARLY as good as DSOTM!

Quote from TiJay :

Got the album today (snow day), listened to it on a HiFi whilst watching the snow and generally musing. It's bloody good.

Now get a copy of The Wizard of Oz and press play on the CD just as the lion roars at the beginning of the movie ( I think). It's awesome the way it works out .

Quote from The General Lee :

Still, after Roger left after The Final Cut (ironic lol) the music was still as goos as ever. Learning to fly, Sorrow, many more. Still Brilliant.
Roger Waters' solo stuff is very good. If you havnt listened to The Pro's and Con's of Hitchhiking...You really need to!!

The Final Cut is one that I don't have that I didn't list in my post earlier. Can't say I've heard anything from that album. But, yes, Gilmore did continue Floyd very nicely with the last two albums. Dogs of War I love, as well as What do you Want from Me on the Division Bell. Sorrow is one I listen to very often.

Quote from SamH :

It's quite funny to read someone describe Waters' writing as unpretentious because since the Wall, all he seemed to be, to me, was attrociously self-absorbed - and not in small part rather depressing. The Final Cut was the most awful thing I ever heard.. and I really did try to like it, because I would have been cool like my mates if I had.

If they're going to deride you because you didn't like TFC they aren't your friends...and they have shit taste anyway so you're better off without them

Well, post-Dark Side I suppose Roger did get quite introspective & self-analytical, almost to a fault. Certainly wouldn't have improved relations between him and Dave, having to tour The Wall and watch Waters go through live therapy for years But the writing on Dark Side was some of his best ever. And, for the record, I don't really dig anything post-Wall, except Momentary Lapse Of Reason, which I think is the last great Floyd album - even though, tbh, it's more a Gilmour album than anything else, but sure showcases Gilmour's understated brilliance, and which, ironically, was the first one I ever heard.

Quote from Bladerunner :

Seriously though, If Carlsberg made albums, they would probably sound NEARLY as good as DSOTM!

I wonder if they'd still manage to get it to taste like that unique brand of dishwater though.

Quote from Bob Smith :

I wonder if they'd still manage to get it to taste like that unique brand of dishwater though.

Never said I drink that cr*p.....Krony 1664 FTW!