people says trail braking makes you faster but ive noticed WR dont trail brake

so should i trail brake or not?

It depends on the car setup. If you've got a car with a loose rear end then it's probably safer not to do it, but if your cars tends to understeer on corner entry then trail braking might be faster and can help the car to turn in.

I only really use trail-braking in the front-wheel-drive cars, or if I've got a locked diff setup in a RWD car. I would say try to get used to it, because braking and turning at the same time is necessary for some corners anyway and it's one of the hardest things to do.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

or if I've got a locked diff setup in a RWD car.

Why is that?

As Kev says, depends on the car or setup, FWD cars are nearly always faster when you trail brake.

I find trail braking in RWD cars a bit scary though.

Well, braking is most effective when done in a straight line, so you should do most of your braking that way. Whether you trailbrake or not depends on lot of things, one of them is setup, other one is whether you use heel&toe for downshifts or not. At least in my case, it made me to rethink my driving technique.

Quote from BurnOut69 :

Why is that?

Because putting a locked diff on a RWD makes it understeer a lot. If you tried trail-braking with a clutch pack diff. on there you'd probably find yourself entering the corner sideways more often than not.

Quote from shockman :

Whether you trailbrake or not depends on lot of things, one of them is setup, other one is whether you use heel&toe for downshifts or not. At least in my case, it made me to rethink my driving technique.

I agree you do have to be more disciplined when trail braking if you're braking with your right foot. You have to be extra careful not to lift off the brake too suddenly or abruptly because you can't use the throttle to balance the car at the same time. Once you get used to a circuit though it's still do-able.

When it comes down to it though - once you get good enough at controlling the car - whether you're braking on the way into the corner really depends on what you want the car to do (or whether you've missed your braking point! ).

I recommend you to read this. It's an excerpt out of a great book. You will find that the "friction circle," also called "traction circle," explains trail braking much better. From my personal experience and reading I believe that trail braking is necessary in order to get the most out of any cars cornering capabilities. But I'm no WR holder! Well .. yet I hope.


Sligtly OT: One thing I don't understand is that there's talk of 100% braking and acceleration and then the mix of the two with steering at some points of the corner. Is there not a point where you use 100% steering/cornering? Neither braking nor using throtle just cornering at 100%?

Always, always trail brake (unless the car really can't handle it). If you can lift off the brakes before the slowest part of the corner, and still be at the right speed when you get there, then you could have braked a bit later.

IDUI: The idea is to use 100% of the cornering ability from the moment you turn the wheel. Which is why you should still be slowing the car as you begin to apply steering and accelerating the car from the moment you begin to straighten the wheel. So there will be a cross over between the two, an obvious example would be a long fixed radius corner where you have to maintain a constant speed with a trailing throttle (revs not going up or down).

Quote from sinbad :

IDUI: The idea is to use 100% of the cornering ability from the moment you turn the wheel. Which is why you should still be slowing the car as you begin to apply steering and accelerating the car from the moment you begin to straighten the wheel. So there will be a cross over between the two, an obvious example would be a long fixed radius corner where you have to maintain a constant speed with a trailing throttle (revs not going up or down).

Yes, that makes sence since the tires would slow the car if left without any kind of throtle. Perhaps in a slow, sharp corner actually "rolling" for an instant is beneficial as that braking effect, the steering gives, could be part of trail-braking. Until the undwind that is. Things are getting clearer.

Quote from sinbad :

you should still be slowing the car as you begin to apply steering and accelerating the car from the moment you begin to straighten the wheel. So there will be a cross over between the two, an obvious example would be a long fixed radius corner where you have to maintain a constant speed with a trailing throttle (revs not going up or down).

I've been meaning to ask someone this:

I've found that on some of LFS' hairpin-with-fat-radius corners (you know the ones - final turn on SO Long, AS Club Rev., that sort of corner) it often seems to be quicker to use a four-wheel drift on the way in to get the car pointing the right way for the exit. Harder to get the braking point right, and too hard on the tyres to do it every lap, but a few tenths quicker if you get it right.

I could never tell whether I'd actually made up the time somewhere else though. Does this approach actually work in LFS or am I imagining it?

Dunno about that Kev, but I can't for the life of me find a decent line in the last turn on AS Club rev

Quote from sinbad :

Always, always trail brake (unless the car really can't handle it). If you can lift off the brakes before the slowest part of the corner, and still be at the right speed when you get there, then you could have braked a bit later.

110% agree with you! If you can get around a corner without trail braking then you've braked to early (in most cases).

Quote from danowat :

Dunno about that Kev, but I can't for the life of me find a decent line in the last turn on AS Club rev

Like I said, I think it's quickest - in the RWDs with road tyres at least - to just go all pre-war GP driver on it. I suppose with the FWDs it's all about the trail braking, just like every other corner...

I have mixed feelings on trail braking. Yes, in theory it should be faster by not wasting any grip potential, but in practice I've found that it just results in braking too much or too long, giving the opposite result it should have.

In WR replays you can see how they let off the brakes relatively early, but the main difference is that they're letting go at a faster speed - due to not using the brakes they can use the maximum available lateral grip to still make it, and then they're on the throttle again while you would still be trail braking. You know the principle: slow in, fast out.

Another very important aspect is how you shift down. If you're not paying any attention to it, it's easy to fall into the same routine of braking and immediately shifting down to the target gear to maximise braking, at least in FWD cars. But for hairpins it can be much better to wait with shifting into the very low gears, because the more rearward brake balance helps you immensely on turning in. I realised this while failing at the last turn on AS Cadet again and again, until I noticed that I simply downshift too aggressively.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

I've been meaning to ask someone this:

I've found that on some of LFS' hairpin-with-fat-radius corners (you know the ones - final turn on SO Long, AS Club Rev., that sort of corner) it often seems to be quicker to use a four-wheel drift on the way in to get the car pointing the right way for the exit. Harder to get the braking point right, and too hard on the tyres to do it every lap, but a few tenths quicker if you get it right.

I could never tell whether I'd actually made up the time somewhere else though. Does this approach actually work in LFS or am I imagining it?

Definitely does work. Especially in the cars which have a higher power-to-grip ratio and just need to be pointed down the next straight asap. You can brake even later and be harder on the gas earlier in the corner because you're wider at an earlier point around the corner. Trouble is your minimum speed through the corner is lower at the point where you stop and turn it, so it might take a tad longer to arrive at the exit. You need to decide if the extra speed you'll possibly be carrying is enough to even that out. As you said, in a lot of the road cars, it is.

I like to make it look like I intended to use that line whenever I brake too late and run out too wide

Cheers Sinbad.

Quote from sinbad :

I like to make it look like I intended to use that line whenever I brake too late and run out too wide

I like to make it look like I intended to use that line when I brake too late for the car infront and have to flick it inside to avoid a collision.

Quote from danowat :

As Kev says, depends on the car or setup, FWD cars are nearly always faster when you trail brake.

I find trail braking in RWD cars a bit scary though.

You've got that big v-twin and don't back it in??
Trailbraking cars is a lot easier than on two wheels..

Quote from Breizh :

You've got that big v-twin and don't back it in??
Trailbraking cars is a lot easier than on two wheels..

Thats what a slipper clutch is for .

Trail Braking is a situational skill thats partly based on the car, its setup, and the corners geometry in addition to what preceeds and follows the corner. Its not over complex though.

The basic is simple. Since we can all agree then smoothness with the controles is always better then quick movments it should also be known that your tires and suspension can load more G's when that are applied slowly then if they are loaded fast. Trail Braking allows you to brake a little later and contune to brake as you turn in for the corner. Since you are smoothly adding steering angle you can also smoothly reduce braking force while adding steering angle.

As others have also said you can do the same with the exit and the throttle as you reduce steerng angle. I was very good at this before S2 in the GTT on Blackwood T1. For some reason now I can't seem to trail brake as well or am scared to. I think I posted a more detailed write up on this in the new users forum.

I always trail brake when racing the FZR, RB4, XRT, and FOX. I don't like to use a locked diff and don't.
I can shave quite a bit of time off a lap time doing trail braking, I only have issues when I get a person infront of me that does not do so. I usually end up having to swing the back end around a little and slide to the outside to avoid a smash.

Trail braking is good if you can do it correctly. I am working on doing it with my LX6, it has understeer off throttle and oversteer on full throttle and can't run half throttle through many corners. Trail braking is the answer if I can keep it from sliding around. The FZ5 is good for it too because that sucker is a TANK!

trail braking is all about getting thwe wieght over the front wheels to give you more grip on the front wheels, nothing to do with setup, if ure overtseering when trail braking your doing it wrong, if your set up cant handle it your setup is naff, because trail braking is always faster as you can get into the corner faster and acdelerate out quicker.

Quote from kieran20 :

if ure overtseering when trail braking your doing it wrong, if your set up cant handle it your setup is naff, because trail braking is always faster as you can get into the corner faster and acdelerate out quicker.

Not necessarily (IMO), it depends on the car and the circuit. I find with twistier circuits (like at SO) and an understeery setup the fronts become a worry after just a few laps. I'd rather have the rear a bit looser, get the car turned a bit earlier and be back on the power sooner. After a few laps the guys running understeer will be suffering and you can shame them.

Quote from kieran20 :

setup is naff

You do know what naff means don't you?

Quote from tristancliffe :

You do know what naff means don't you?

in case he doesn't
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naff

I use to be a crazy trailbraker, I remember looking at the mpr of some ESCC race with XFR on AS Cadet or somethin, in T1 I was going past apexes with brakes lights still on , while others had stopped braking A LONG TIME ago, I was also really fast on the entrys and not really loosing on exits.

But with the latest physics I've kinda lost the trailbraking thing, the locked diff in GTR's feels to me like, if I dont release the brakes my car wont turn at all, so I have started to drive, brake, throttle on and steer.

I so loved to drive with blipping all the way trough the braking, then finally giving it some throttle and balancing it troughout the entrance and finally releasing the brakes and go for it, damm the good old times