The online racing simulator
Reading the last couple of posts has made me revisit my views on why I think the basic premise behind LFS in not using real cars is so good. With things like Rfactor and GTR the cars are real, you can't help but compare them to the real thing. And untill you have a perfect physics simulation you will never get a true representation of these cars. There is only so much kicks you can get from 'driving' a Lambo around Nordshcliefe before you realise that you will never know how the car really drives unless your rich enough to go out and buy one. And if that was the case you probable wouldn't be trying to drive it Rfactor becuase it would piss you offf to much.


No. LFS's arguable best attribute is that it does not use real cars (Other than them ones). And in doing that means that the guys can concentrate on getting the physics right first and foremost for the basic vehicle platforms. The fact that all of LFS's cars are not nessesarily easy to drive and have quirks and foibles is what makes it all the more real.
#52 - JTbo
Funnybear is kind of right, I don't drive rFactor much as I always end up examining and tweaking physics to get them right
Quote from Funnybear :Don't forget that LFS is NOT A FINISHED PRODUCT. Most, if not all of the issues you raised are know about and will be sorted at some point in the near future. Rfactor (As far as I know) is a finished product.

LFS has a long way to go and I think that if you read through some of the bug reports, improvement sudgestions and post that Lord Scawen has posted on the subject you will find that most things are/will be addressed.

As for Rfactor. Never played it, wouldn't know.

rFactor _claims_ to be a finished product and I've spent the last 12-18 months either making cars or tracks for it and from my experience, it's _far_ from finished and this thread at RSC pretty much sums things up to a T... and just glad now that I've lost all interest in rF.

I never listened when people slated ISI before, I only started with F1C and had some fun playing it (for 9 months before rF was released) but damn, their support is a friggin joke! Sure, I got some help on a few modding things when I had to ask, but that came about through absolutely no modding documentation at all and with such an open platform, that's inexcusable but when you get a response such in the thread linked above, well, I'm pretty much lost for words tbh. ISI are nothing but a 2-bit joke.. somewhere on par with micro$oft

I only wanted AI that was the same as in 1.070 (ie: actually usable) but alas, they seriously don't have a clue.



Regards,

Ian
It might just be me, but I think asking race drivers is pretty pointless, because they most likely have no idea of tyre physics and the mathematical workings of a simulation either. Rather you see some of them give games like GTR/2 an "this is uber realistic" rating because they simply don't know better (and/or are paid to do so).

Mechanics and tyre engineers and whatever are probably a better choice regarding the theory, race drivers themselves only if they are very very much into computer simulations and know what the whole thing is about. Can they share valuable experiences? Yes. Can they evaluate a sims correctness regarding the physics model? Seriously, who are you trying to kid?
#55 - joen
Quote from Foropsico :But, if you want the most detailed physics you can have, then you have to copy a real car in a real track and get help from real race car drivers and engineers.

But then you would strive for the most accurate simulated handling for THAT particular car. If you want to copy a real life car's handling you could just "simply" manipulate it by reading data from some tables. I am not saying LFS' physics are 100% accurate, but physics are universal. Real life cars and tracks are not necessary to create a convincing physics model.

Quote :
It is just logic, any car have diferent behaviour in any track. You have to imitate the reality.

But realistic does not equal reality perse.

Quote :I think rfactor has a great F1 physics, better than BF1 i´ve tried in a friend house, but we need a F1 driver to confirm that.

So if you need an F1 driver to determine which one is more realistic, how can you say rFactor has the best F1 physics?

Quote :
You cant make a game realistic based in fantasy.

I strongly disagree.
Quote from JTbo :even it is very hard sometimes when you can't find even single good source of information that can be understood without being engineer, my math is not strong, I'm car guy, not science guy

no offense to you and your mod (you seem to be one of the "good" guys that actually bother to educate themself) but therein lies the actual problem
tbh most rf modders (and the race car drivers they use for referal how great their mods are) seem to have no clue about physics and are somewhere between incapeable and uninterested in educating themself on the very thing they try to replicate in a sim

which is also the reason why i like todds scawens and pricordes work all that much
i dont know eithers educational background but from reading their posts i get the feeling that all of them are physics geeks that are genuinely interested in physics and have the knowledge base needed to understand the material the engineering community throws at them to get it implemented in their sims
oh and todd release that sim of yours already will ya
Quote from joen :But then you would strive for the most accurate simulated handling for THAT particular car. If you want to copy a real life car's handling you could just "simply" manipulate it by reading data from some tables. I am not saying LFS' physics are 100% accurate, but physics are universal. Real life cars and tracks are not necessary to create a convincing physics model.

And that is exactly the point why LfS is so far ahead... Normally, you'd define the values of how a certain car reacts in a certain situation... So you'd create specific physics for this one car, which is just wrong on every level... LfS has universal physics for all cars, and the attributes those cars have define how a certain car reacts in a certain situation, now THAT's simulating...
Quote from Foropsico :
You think LFS has a physics engine thats imitate every aspect of the real world physics? If thats true, why when you crash, cars fly 20 meters in the air? I think LFS is not so perfect.

That has nothing to do with physics of LFS, that is collision bug, and it is a multiplayer thing, it will be fixed eventually, but nothing to do with physics.
Quote from Foropsico :Well, i have been driving real formula renault cars. You need a race car driver smart enoght to tell you how racing a particular car feels. Neider an engineer can do that.

I tend to disagree. It doesn't matter how it feels, it matters how it handles objectively - and that's what a sim should aim for. Recreating the feeling of a particular car is not necessarily the goal (although it's often, but not always, likely to be a side effect) but rather recreating the physical reactions mathematically, regardless of how it feels. It's going to feel different on a PC, and fudging it to make it feel the same as RL is a big mistake because it won't likely be "true" because of that discrepancy. Which is exactly why engineers are handy!

Quote :You think LFS has a physics engine thats imitate every aspect of the real world physics? If thats true, why when you crash, cars fly 20 meters in the air? I think LFS is not so perfect.

Noone ever said "every aspect of real world physics" :rolleyes:. I'm pretty sure most people here are talking about tire (tyre, whatever) physics.

The pylon physics suck too!
we all have to make our minds clear, that these simulators are games. you'll never be able to simulate 100% real life. it's like if you say something like: "i have to go to jail because i draw that card, THAT IS NOT REALISTIC" when playing Monopoly. it is a ****ing game *g*

so we have to live with the issues and bugs as they are given. if you are able to bumpdraft in one game and not in real live, then GO and BUMP your ASS OFF. i don't think anyone who is able to drive the bf1 in lfs is able to do at least 250m in real life with this car. so if you say: this game or that game is more realistic i think this is like: yeah LFS is 0.451% realism compared to real life and rFactor is like 0.450% realism compared to real life. it's virtual.

so even if you have the perfect simulation. it is still nothing more then a simulation. you can't simulate real life (until the holodeck from startrek is reality and the anti-harm mode is off and even then...)

so i think every gamedeveloper should focus on making the game the most fun and thrill as possible. i mean what would this game be if you really get hurt when crashing, when you really have to pay for damaged car parts and so on and so on....

games are games (even though some are more realistic) but it's still a game. no-one wants a simulation that barely anyone is able to drive (like it would be for lots of people who never drove a real car because of their age)

even if you have a tripplehead display with 3d glasses and clutch, or even a gforce-seat. it is still a game. (i know there is some incredible good force seats, but who has the money for something like that).

i mean "game" not as a bad thing. football is also a game (and they make lots of money there *g*)

even if you say: "i am the best lfs / rfactor driver in the world" you might have the best opportunities in real life racing such as good eye-hand coordination, good memorization of tracks, patience, passion, patience and more patience. but it is two shoes to drive in a save seat in your warm home or with 280km/h 50cm behind another car or with 180 through a wood where you do not even know whats coming after the next turn unless your copilot is telling you something like "3rd, left 90 over jump, outside"

i know lots of drivers use computer games to learn tracks, practice eye-hand coordination (Villneuve, Ernhard Jr., Klien,...)

ok... what did i want to say? ah it's too early now
Ok, I agree with many of the things said above. And yes, it's just a game, or just a sim But some are more "realistic" than others, as in representing car behaviour more or less like it would in real life.

However, those who say that race drivers have no clue: The only person who know what a BMW M3 GTR does when you hurl it into the first corner at Barcelona downshifting from 6th to 2nd is the guy who does it: the pilot.

None of the people on this board, me included, will even know what it feels like. Will ever know how the car twitches, when it feels loose, when it gains drive out of the corner etc. The only person who knows this is the pilot who¡s done this in real life.

So we can all talk all day about which sim is best. And you can say all day long that the last person you would ask is the pilot cos he has no clues about sims. Yet he's the only one who can tell you: Yes, this is more or less like the car bahaves in real life, cos he's the only one who knows.

And yes, the engineers can look at the datasheets and replicate everything 1''% and get the same data analysis out of the sim as out of the real life sheets .. but if the pilot says: That's not how it reacted two weeks ago at the track then you can develop and engineer all year long: It's not how it behaves, fullstop.

As for LFS and real cars: It's a licensing issue, if you look at the cars, many have a vey close resemblance with real life counterparts, you would just have to stick the company logo on it. And they handle how we would expect these cars to handle. So they are in fact simulations of real cars, they just don't have the brand name stuck all over it.

And personally I think that's just fine, they race great and they feel great .. but then, what do I nkow, I've never raced anything but karts in my life...

aceracer
Quote from Foropsico :I dont think that LFS has a complete and perfect physics simulation engine of the real world. just a limitated one, so you have to achieve some behaviours in some especific way.

you will have to simplify parts of the phyiscs engine a lot but you should never go as far as to write "individual physics" (the term doesnt even make sense) for each car

Quote :Well, i have been driving real formula renault cars. You need a race car driver smart enoght to tell you how racing a particular car feels. Neider an engineer can do that.

what bbt said

Quote :You think LFS has a physics engine thats imitate every aspect of the real world physics? If thats true, why when you crash, cars fly 20 meters in the air? I think LFS is not so perfect.

you wont find any true lfs supporter who will claim that lfs is perfect but most of us will tell you that its far closer to reality than anything isi was able to come up with thus far
and yes lfs has holes in its engine which do cause glitches ... but as far as im concerned they do show that lfs really is math based for the most part which can lead to glitches as opposed to table based approaches which by their very nature cant glitch

Quote from Fischfix :i don't think anyone who is able to drive the bf1 in lfs is able to do at least 250m in real life with this car.

youre way off on this one
a modern f1 car is one of the best cars with some of the stickiest tyres youll find anywhere on the planet equiped with an electronic nanny so you dont mess up ... it should be one of the easiest cars to drive (tiff commented that it is indeed very easy to drive when he had a go in a modern f1)

Quote :so even if you have the perfect simulation. it is still nothing more then a simulation. you can't simulate real life (until the holodeck from startrek is reality and the anti-harm mode is off and even then...)

its not supposed to simulate real life its supposed to simulate physics

Quote :games are games (even though some are more realistic) but it's still a game. no-one wants a simulation that barely anyone is able to drive (like it would be for lots of people who never drove a real car because of their age)

ill quote todd who quotes someone else on this:
as simulators get more realistic they should become easier to drive
#63 - JJ72
Well one thing I know for sure that is benefitial using fictional cars is that....you can manupulate the performance of the car and get leveled competition. If you are fixed to a set of real performance values, the difference between cars will be rather large. (although car balancing is rather bad in LFS so far it's an ideal that is possible to work on.)

About the point of racing simulations should simulate real world as far as we can, I am not so sure. I am now exploring the world of flight simulations, and it's a rather inspring experience because every serious aircraft they made are accurate not only physically, but also historically, they even find perioded pilots who has experience in that particular plane to review the physics, and it seems the portion of real pilots playing flight sim is quite some higher than the portion of race driver playing racing sims. The meaning of immersion in flight sims, that every switch, every bolts and nuts has to be exactly correct is quite attractive. starting an aircraft from cold is a occasion, so is the actual flying experience.

It's rather different in racing sims however, I own a copy of GT legends because or the amazing lineup of cars, in terms of graphic and sound it does a notable job in recreating the real vehicles, but still, when out on a track, trying to do a fast lap, all of these doesn't seems too important, whether the ignition switch work, whether labels on the dashboard are correct as it is, racing simulation is much more about the actual driving, it occupies your senses so much that the physical aspect is more more important then the rest, as long as the visuals and audio are not so bad in a way that they carry you away from the experience.

Same goes to the cars, whether it has the exact torque curve as a real car or not isn't that much of an importance, as long as it is realistic according to the law of physics. Even if you make a car in LFS, which suspension hard points and wheel dimension is different from any other car in reality, it wouldn't matter and thus stand out as unrealistic, because the inner working is sound, I might even say this is a real car but a real car that has yet been produced, because on paper it's possible to design and manufacture a car with such stats.

That's my point on why real life reference helps creating a realistic simulation, however depiction of the actual object itself is not. And I think as long as you have a good physics engine, it will be rather easy to inject real life datas and create "real" cars.

Think about it, when F1 designers start a new car, they start with concepts base on engineering principles that they know is sound, they do not start base on the old numbers of previous cars and reverse engineer it, because they already know how that part of physics works. Their new car, is basically designed out of fastasy, experiemented in virtual reality and then built in real life, most of the time the end product will behave very close to what is simulated, up to that point it's all down to engineers and their maths, rather then what the driver feels. The driver feedback in the end is just a final check on the actual outcome conceived from a mental point of view, very important for the result, but a driver cannot design a car because the information pool he draws from is different from the engineers.

That's alright in real life because physics is a constant, but in sim racing, how can a real world racing driver tell whether it's the fault of the physics engine, or the data that goes into engine that creates the problem? The driver can tell whether the car reacts correctly under a turn in - throttle lift scenario, but he cannot possibly know whether it's the setup, the parameters, the physics engine, or even the input controllers, and because they don't spend hours a day messing with a sim in different combos, they cannot cross check and unlike us, knows the flaw in the physics models.
Quote :Recreating the feeling of a particular car is not necessarily the goal (although it's often, but not always, likely to be a side effect) but rather recreating the physical reactions mathematically, regardless of how it feels. It's going to feel different on a PC, and fudging it to make it feel the same as RL is a big mistake because it won't likely be "true" because of that discrepancy.

Some good posts here/differences of opinion as to what should constitute a good sim. Regarding above statement, I wonder how practical this approach is, given current technological restrictions. I've read that it's pretty impossible to just input correct physical values of various RL data and expect that your virtual car will behave in the same way, because in reality there are so many other small variables interacting with and influencing these forces which are not being calculated and which cannot be calculated due to the hardware limitations/whatever. I'm not a physicist/engineer so I cannot comment any further, it's just that I wonder about this purist approach- the idea that if you've the correct data, in theory it should all just work the way it's supposed to. At some point, if you want your simulation to be believable, to feel right, to behave realistically, you're going to have to fudge some variables here and there because no matter how good the data is, it's not representative of the full spectrum of forces which are operating within the real world.

LFS/Rf may be perfect simulations of themselves, but if physics is universal, and understood, then why is it so hard to get something working properly inside a computer? Probably because you're inputting only part of the story.
#65 - joen
Quote from Foropsico :I dont think that LFS has a complete and perfect physics simulation engine of the real world. just a limitated one, so you have to achieve some behaviours in some especific way.

I explicitely said LFS' physics are not 100% accurate, yet you try to convince me of the same.

Quote :
You must imitate the real world as far as you can.

Imitating the real world (meaning existing real tracks and cars) is not necessary to make a game realistic, because like I said realistic and reality are not the same thing. GT4 has tons of real cars and tracks. How realistic is that to you?

Quote :
Well, i have been driving real formula renault cars. You need a race car driver smart enoght to tell you how racing a particular car feels. Neider an engineer can do that.

Yet, a Formula Renault is hardly comparable to a Formula 1 car.

Quote :
You think LFS has a physics engine thats imitate every aspect of the real world physics? If thats true, why when you crash, cars fly 20 meters in the air? I think LFS is not so perfect.

Once again, you choose to ignore what I said. No, I did not say LFS physics are complete and 100% accurate. Reasons for this being that LFS is not finished, and like already pointed out by others, it simply is not possible to create a sim that imitates every aspect of real world physics. Well, maybe it would be possbile but us LFS players would need supercomputers to be able to play it.
I never said LFS is perfect but neither is any other sim. I think LFS has chosen the only correct route and that is to use a pure physics model with no faked and canned effects like other sims do.

But, let's agree to disagree here.
1) Why do ISI sim fans always raise this argument that real drivers have said that WTCC ISI GTR2 COPY VOL 7 tRactor RACE feels 100% real?

2) Why don't real racing drivers ever say anything about LFS? Does it suck so bad?

3) When some of the drivers also feel arcade games like WRC, Colin McRae Rally and Gran Turismo realistic, do their arguments have any value when judging simulators?
When I was driving in S1 LFS felt realistic.
With S2 it felt more realistic and each physics patch improves LFS in a way that again feels more realistic (up till now :P).

So as far as I'm concerned something 'feeling' realistic has to be taken with a grain of salt. I just didn't know better until after the next patch arrived and I could compare.

LFS has normal road cars which I drive about 60.000km a year, so me telling you that an LFS roadcar is realistic in behaviour should have more value as a 'racer' telling you a race car is feeling realistic if he only drives it 5.000km a year.

Luckily I'm not telling anybody roadcars are realistic so we can stop right there. And yes I've driven my car to the limit where it was publicly safe to do so and probably to a simillar amount of corners as a racer does.
S1 was realistic in, say, 80% of situations. Just a bit too easy to start and recover from slides. S2 is realistic in, say, 90% of situations, and thus is an improvement without making S1 suddenly unrealistic.

Then (and please consider this is my opinion) you see GTR/GTR2/GTL which is realistic in about 60% of situations, rFactor (65%), nKP (75 - 85%) and GT4 (30%).

So, yes it's all relative, not only with each other, but also in time. F1GP was easily the most realistic driving game back in 1992, but was probably realistic in just 15% of situations (straight lines and maybe braking). However, at the time, our ideas of what realism a computer can achieve were a lot lower. On the same token, now I've experienced the highs (and lows) of LFS, I can safely say that ISI is backwards technology (for me).
#69 - col
Quote from Electrik Kar :...I'm not a physicist/engineer so I cannot comment any further, it's just that I wonder about this purist approach- the idea that if you've the correct data, in theory it should all just work the way it's supposed to. At some point, if you want your simulation to be believable, to feel right, to behave realistically, you're going to have to fudge some variables here and there because no matter how good the data is, it's not representative of the full spectrum of forces which are operating within the real world...

What you say is partly true, but you have to understand that there is more than one way to use the data.

If your simulation works by storing loads of data for all normal contitions, then reading from that data as those conditions arise, any time an unusual contition arises that you don't have accurate detailed data for, you will have to fudge it, and it will seem awkward and unrealistic to the user....
The more data you have, the better it gets, but you will never have enough data for every eventuality..

The other approach is to use the data as a development tool... you look at the data, then design a mathematical model... you then run the model using the same conditions that generated the data... you look at the output of the model and compare it to the original data... you tweak the model... and repeat the process each time bringing the output of your model closer to the real data.
The beauty of this approach is that if your model workd for situations that are 'known' it is very likely that it will also work for situations for which you have no detailed accurate data.
Any time more data becomes available that highlights flaws in your model, you can repeat the iterative tweaking and testing of your model in order to bring its output closer to the 'output' from reality.

This second way is more difficult and requires a deeper more creative use of maths and physics, but ultimately it will produce a more natural feel because the simulated environment is always true to itself.

I'll leave it to you to work out which sim uses which approach
Quote from JJ72 :Well one thing I know for sure that is benefitial using fictional cars is that....you can manupulate the performance of the car and get leveled competition. If you are fixed to a set of real performance values, the difference between cars will be rather large. (although car balancing is rather bad in LFS so far it's an ideal that is possible to work on.)

About the point of racing simulations should simulate real world as far as we can, I am not so sure. I am now exploring the world of flight simulations, and it's a rather inspring experience because every serious aircraft they made are accurate not only physically, but also historically, they even find perioded pilots who has experience in that particular plane to review the physics, and it seems the portion of real pilots playing flight sim is quite some higher than the portion of race driver playing racing sims. The meaning of immersion in flight sims, that every switch, every bolts and nuts has to be exactly correct is quite attractive. starting an aircraft from cold is a occasion, so is the actual flying experience.

It's rather different in racing sims however, I own a copy of GT legends because or the amazing lineup of cars, in terms of graphic and sound it does a notable job in recreating the real vehicles, but still, when out on a track, trying to do a fast lap, all of these doesn't seems too important, whether the ignition switch work, whether labels on the dashboard are correct as it is, racing simulation is much more about the actual driving, it occupies your senses so much that the physical aspect is more more important then the rest, as long as the visuals and audio are not so bad in a way that they carry you away from the experience.

Same goes to the cars, whether it has the exact torque curve as a real car or not isn't that much of an importance, as long as it is realistic according to the law of physics. Even if you make a car in LFS, which suspension hard points and wheel dimension is different from any other car in reality, it wouldn't matter and thus stand out as unrealistic, because the inner working is sound, I might even say this is a real car but a real car that has yet been produced, because on paper it's possible to design and manufacture a car with such stats.

That's my point on why real life reference helps creating a realistic simulation, however depiction of the actual object itself is not. And I think as long as you have a good physics engine, it will be rather easy to inject real life datas and create "real" cars.

Think about it, when F1 designers start a new car, they start with concepts base on engineering principles that they know is sound, they do not start base on the old numbers of previous cars and reverse engineer it, because they already know how that part of physics works. Their new car, is basically designed out of fastasy, experiemented in virtual reality and then built in real life, most of the time the end product will behave very close to what is simulated, up to that point it's all down to engineers and their maths, rather then what the driver feels. The driver feedback in the end is just a final check on the actual outcome conceived from a mental point of view, very important for the result, but a driver cannot design a car because the information pool he draws from is different from the engineers.

That's alright in real life because physics is a constant, but in sim racing, how can a real world racing driver tell whether it's the fault of the physics engine, or the data that goes into engine that creates the problem? The driver can tell whether the car reacts correctly under a turn in - throttle lift scenario, but he cannot possibly know whether it's the setup, the parameters, the physics engine, or even the input controllers, and because they don't spend hours a day messing with a sim in different combos, they cannot cross check and unlike us, knows the flaw in the physics models.

Yes its kind of a shock isnt it? How the Flight Simulators have advanced and improved in all areas, while we Sim Racers still got stuck somewhere in the 90s. You should check out some Payware Updates for Flight Sims, every button, every switch is working and simulated, everything real Pilots have to deal with is just amazingly good Simulated.

Back to the Point about why real Race Drivers comments about a Sim have to be taken not too seriously. I try to explain it better.

I have driven Formula cars and have spoken to F1 Drivers, while real Race car drivers know exactly how there cars behave, they dont know what can and should be simulated, how far have Simulations advanced? How good is a Sim compared to a other?
The real Race drivers just dont know, thats why there comments about Sims cannot be taken to seriously, unless they have driven thousands of laps in different Sims, tweaked and setted up the Wheel and the Sim correctly. Most real drivers have not done this, thats why Alexander Wurz for example thought the best Simulation is on the Nintendo 64. If I show Alexander Wurz Grand Prix 3 from Crammond he would probably change his mind and say something along the lines of GP3 is the most realistic F1 Simulation. Just because he has no experience in Racing Simulations.

And you also have to take into consideration that alot of drivers dont really care about what they are saying about a Computer Game, if there Manager says, "were going to make a Advertisement for this Racing Game", the driver is not going to argue around and just comment positively about it. Just take a look at Dale Earnhardt Junior, the Man has his very own NASCAR Racing Online league, he is a regular Sim Racer of Papyrus NASCAR Racing 2003 Sim, yet, he makes advertisement for the Electronic Arts NASCAR Game, because his Management tells him so.
Quote from Whitmore :You are confusing driver endorsement with driver input. This isn't about whether a driver is judging which is the best sim but a driver giving feedback to improve a sim. Check out Alx Danielsson's review of NetKar Pro in ASS magazine if you don't believe a race driver can provide useful feedback.

Theres no confusion in that regard. The point I was tryieng to make is that any input of a real Race car driver or comments about a Sim should not be taken to seriously in nearly all cases. I dont know about Alex Danielssons Review of netkar Pro, I have driven F2000 cars myself and regard netkarPro a very good Simulation of it. But the truth is that most if not nearly all regular real Race car drivers have not spend thousands of laps and a intense time configuring, experiencing and testing a number of different Sims for a long period of time. So there opinions is limited not by there knowledge about the real car, but by the limited knowledge about different Simulations in general.
That Danielssons might be a regular Sim Racer and a regular real Race Car driver, but that would be the exception of what is going on with every new Race Sim or Game, you will always find a real Race Driver say the Physics of that particular Game are top notch and that he has helped improving the Physics. It is infact hard to find any Racing Game without some Marketing Bla Bla from a real Race driver.
#72 - JTbo
How sim feels is an illusion, we enjoy illusion of driving a car.

Then there is certain aspects we can measure, take time etc. we can get good simulation only if these match.

Feeling is then addition to top, caused how steering and pedals movement information is being used and what kind force feedback is, along with all chrome and bling create feeling, but also part of feeling is how car reacts in virtual world.

But you never will get same feeling out from sim as you do in reallife. And I really hope that nobody is not using momo and complaining about realism, that would be quite silly when you would have 0.67 turns from lock to lock

I really don't care how race cars are, I have not much experience from them and no interest to them either, for me these games really has now only few cars, I have lost all interest to race cars.

Oh and that is true, only sim racer that races cars can really tell if sim is working right or not, setting up controls to be realistic as possible for example is a task that is taking bit more skill than average racer Joe has from sims.

Tristan, can you really give only number for rFactor and all of it's mods? I feel that some mods are closer than others so will be quite hard to tell what number should be, problem is that one mod that does almost all things worse than others can be better than any in one single thing.

I have had intention to do small test track to car park and do same to rFactor too so some measurements could be done, but never have got around to it, I'm just too lazy Other point is that it does not interest me very much, because I'm mostly happy how LFS handles now and I'm happy that I have rF where I can make things I like, so can't complain really.

However, I got really disappointed that I could not make my flying monkeys to really fly in rF, they just hop a bit, would need some proper propulsion device
Quote :I could not make my flying monkeys to really fly in rF, they just hop a bit

Can we see a video please?
#74 - joen
Quote from Foropsico :
Is good to see some people understand this and not defending LFS like a
fanatic.

Sigh. There we go again, once again people who just believe the route LFS has chosen is the better way are labeled as a fanatic/fanboy. Waste of time.
Quote from Foropsico :
Is good to see some people understand this and not defending LFS like a
fanatic.

And who defends LFS "like a Fanatic"?

FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG