Before making an official 'Improvement Suggestion' I thought I'd ask my fellow hosts to give their thoughts on the following idea ...

Limit connection to server by PB based on WR+seconds

What I mean by this is the host can set a server variable (let's call it 'pbconnect') with a variety of options to restrict connection to the server according to the client's PB.

Examples

/pbconnect 0 = No restriction.

/pbconnect 10 = Client must have a PB for this cars/track combination that is less than the WR + 10 seconds before they can join the server.

This simple idea can be further enhanced by having variations that allow connection during qualification where you have to meet the limit or you won't make the race. Admin immunity etc.

Why am I suggesting this?

It occurred to me last night (having banned my third racer) that the three people I had just banned were not deliberate wreckers, they were simply wreckless. They were LFS beginners who were simply not ready to make a positive contribution to the multiplayer community. Instead, they frustrate and hinder the enjoyment of the people on the server who want an excellent racing experience as well as the poor admin who has to sit out a race while they try to provide it.

By having the ability to set the server to reject connections from racers who are yet to prove they are at least capable of driving a lap in a set time would be a solution. And it needn't be 'switched on' permanently. We welcome beginners at DMR and our admins are prepared to coach and advise those prepared to listen. But there comes a time in the evening when it would be nice to know that for the next couple of hours the racers on the server have at least got the ability to complete a lap of the track in a reasonable time.

Your thoughts?

Sheer lunacy if you ask me - backmarkers generally do not harm other drivers - it's just idiots and they can have PBs near to WRs. Think of the idiot "BLUE FLAG SHIFT-S N00B" binds.

I have to agree with duke_toaster.
A fast PB isn't equal to proper and fair driving. I guess you can just share a blacklist with other servers and prevent that these people will join your server(s).

-1 due to the same reasons already mentioned.

Quote from Polaxis :

I guess you can just share a blacklist with other servers and prevent that these people will join your server(s).

A system like that already exists: http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=8930

I agree with the previous posts. A fast PB doesn't necessarily make that driver good, or worth the server space.

The Wrecker Barricade (as linked to in the above post) seems to be the best method for clearing out the asshats.

Thanks for the quick replies. But just to clarify ... I'm not suggesting that this is used to be elitist. The restriction would apply to those who have yet to achieve a reasonable lap time as dictated by the server. That time, as per my example, could be the WR plus ten seconds. This would not preclude the average backmarker. I agree it wouldn't stop the determined wrecker but we already have ways of dealing with them.

Ok, but like you mentioned it could be the WR plus ten seconds in your example. I guess that wouldn't be elitist and a reasonable demand, but other hosts could use the same system to be elitist by setting it to WR plus 3 seconds or something. I don't think that would be a good idea. Unless the +10 seconds is fixed and unchangeable.

Quote from joen :

-1 due to the same reasons already mentioned.



A system like that already exists: http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=8930

I had that in mind, couldn't finde the link though =)
While having lunch I thought about the rule "WR + 10 secs" and found one good point:
At least you have only drivers, which drove some laps with this Track/Car-Combo. You often (more or less) have people joining a server without ever have driven
1) with the available cars
2) on the track
3) both

So you can prevent that with this option, but not more or less.

Quote from joen :

... but other hosts could use the same system to be elitist by setting it to WR plus 3 seconds or something. I don't think that would be a good idea. Unless the +10 seconds is fixed and unchangeable.

But it's up to the server hosts to decide how they want to run their server. We already have the option to make private servers that you can only join if you know the password. We also have seen servers running bespoke 'licensing' access methods. So why not servers that restrict on PBs?

Quote from OldBloke :

It occurred to me last night (having banned my third racer) that the three people I had just banned were not deliberate wreckers, they were simply wreckless. They were LFS beginners who were simply not ready to make a positive contribution to the multiplayer community. Instead, they frustrate and hinder the enjoyment of the people on the server who want an excellent racing experience as well as the poor admin who has to sit out a race while they try to provide it.

I'm sorry, but what you explain that you did here is you possibly turned away 3 potential future racers. Instead of educating them and helping them out, you banned them simply because they don't have experience. How are they suppose to get the help and experience if new people are not allowed on the servers per your suggestion? You said they "were not deliberate wreckers, but wreckless." You do not state that you helped them out in any way.

New people can learn the track layout offline, but that's all they can learn. They won't learn how to race with others, where the fastest line is, or how to pass and be passed. That all comes from experience and watching the veteran racers which is impossible to achieve if they are rejected from racing on the servers.

I love to see new people. I love to see them 20 or 30 seconds off the pace. I love to see them get help from me or someone else on the servers and watch them improve. I've seen new folks go in one evening from spinning out, crashing, or lapping way off the race pace to battling it out midfield just from the kind veterans who took the time to help them rather than "veteran votes to ban newbie press 1 (1/x)".

Many people come to LFS and don't even know what a blue flag is. You can argue that they should figure stuff like that out before coming online, but if they had never heard or seen a blue flag and have no clue about it before coming online, you can't expect them to research it. They have never known about it to do the research. The education of racing starts on the servers with us who have the experience being the teachers. Everyone wants LFS to grow and wants the racerbase to grow, but when it comes down to teaching the new guys, everyone just wants to flame them, call them noobs, and ban them from the "great racing" that everyone wants.

Education is the key, not kicking the new guys away.

Quote from OldBloke :

But it's up to the server hosts to decide how they want to run their server. We already have the option to make private servers that you can only join if you know the password. We also have seen servers running bespoke 'licensing' access methods. So why not servers that restrict on PBs?

The option to make private servers is just needed to organise leagues and events so people who haven't signed up for that can't enter the race. And for also teams preparing for events. I just think that's really something different.
Anyway, yes server hosts decide how they want to run their servers. But I just tend to look at the bigger picture, which is the LFS world as a whole. One of LFS' strong points is it's accessibility. If a lot of hosts would use your suggested option as an elitist tool that accessibility would be harmed and new players would get discouraged and feeling not welcome. So I think it would harm LFS in it's very core.
For sure, I wouldn't want people on my server who just got S2 5 minutes ago and jump on a track they don't know with a car they have never driven before. Those people will surely get in the way and be a hazard to the other drivers. So, some practice can be expected from people surely. So that's why I think WR +10 would be reasonable, but no further limitations.

I think it is a valid and useful suggestion to aid serious racing, but I would add the functionality of being able to set a minimum and maxiumum PB so that various ranges could be catered for. This way you could keep the aliens out if desired, for example.

Quote from mrodgers :

I'm sorry, but what you explain that you did here is you possibly turned away 3 potential future racers. Instead of educating them and helping them out, you banned them simply because they don't have experience.

No. I banned them because they were incapable of driving a lap without being totally wreckless and spoiling the enjoyment of the majority. That's the definition of a well admin'd server in my book. If you were one of the other racers on the track would you have been prepared to to do as I did which was to drop into spectator (my race ruined) and watch them carefully for signs that they would, at worst, be a hindrance to others. What I saw was someone who approached every corner at rediculous speeds, bounced off of the scenery and then continued to the next impact with a now uncontrollably damaged car. Would you even have been prepared to accept that the server has a wreckless driver on it and the admins are saying 'just get on with the race'.

We at DMR welcome beginners. I've already stated that. And we are prepared to help anyone who demonstrates a mature attitude to gaming irrespective of ability. In fact it's written into our community rules.

It takes time, effort and cold hard cash to run a server. It takes even more effort to ensure that the server is run to a high standard. It also takes time to build a relationship with visitors to that server so that, having enjoyed the experience, they decide to come back again and again. I don't think it's too much to ask that we admins can sit down to enjoy the fruits of our labours with like-minded racers without having to babysit totally inexperienced beginners ... at least for a couple of hours an evening.

I suggested a similar idea a while back here, and as many people pointed out it would just segregate drivers even further.

The most important point against this idea is that new drivers would never get a chance to see how faster/better drivers drive their lines and would be always be driving with the same 'class' as themselfs> noobs teaching noobs! nobody would learn anything while all the faster drivers where on other servers driving with their 'class',

-1 I'm afraid, but I do understand the point you make Oldbloke and know how frustrating it is to have a driver ruin a race for everyone else by either being ignorant to racing etiquette or just plain faced not wanting to read the rules.

This problem will always exist and the better drivers shine above the rest whilst the others whom are ignorant to the rules tend not to hang around for too long, all one can do is try to help and not be too eager with that ban stick

Quote from CSU1 :

..and as many people pointed out it would just segregate drivers even further.

There has never been any substantial argument to prove or support that notion. Personally I think it is a paranoid position to take. If everyone keeps supporting the idea of open pick up races for all I am afraid that all we will see is more and more private servers.

There will always be people willing to guide the rookies, always be hotlaps to view and community tools to analyze people's driving and improve setups, always be plenty of servers for every type of racer in our community. The larger our community grows the more diverse the use of the sim will become.

If there are no examples of guaranteed clean and competitive racing then there is little to strive for if you take your sim racing seriously. Public pick-up racing as it is now is a far cry from a realistic racing environment. Server admins who want to run organised racing should be able to do so without holding the hands of every rookie who joins their server to "have a bash at racing". It would be nice if private servers were not the only answer to regularly accessable racing in a good environment.
Sim racing is different than other online gaming, it needs to lean towards a more structured and sometimes stricter approach. This may be achieved fairly and equitably by server-side settings. Even in real life you can't just get your racing license and join any series you wish. In many cases the rookie or newcomer just wouldn't get a seat at all in certain series without experience and proven talent. There is obviously a broad spectrum of series and events to cater for all levels, why should LFS be limited to an "anyone can join any public server" when real life shows us why this is not the best scenario?

Quote from CSU1 :

I suggested a similar idea a while back here, and as many people pointed out it would just segregate drivers even further.

Apologies for missing your earlier thread.

It's funny how the majority of the posters see this suggestion (and yours) just as a tool to segregate fast from slow when all I'm trying (badly) to explain is that DMR would use it to filter out the totally inexperienced. If this option existed yesterday I could have safely set /pbconnect to 20 seconds and those three guys would still not have got in.

To be totally fair, the problem yesterday was made considerably worse due to the fact we were driving South City. On any other track those three would have been much easier to tolerate as they would have been spending the majority of the time off-road.

Gunn - well said.

nevermind...

Quote from Gunn :

why should LFS be limited to an "anyone can join any public server" when real life shows us why this is not the best scenario?

I understand what you say Gunn, let's be honest here this stricter approach you talk of is in effect already in place it's called the private server!

On any given day, on any server if the drivers feel they need some privacy from crashers they just have to close the doors and race with their pals and let the rest of world race away, I think it would be wrong to add a restriction to on-line gameplay for everyone.

Im not against this idea and do think that something needs to be done about the crasher that joins and ruins the day...maybe some sort of black mark system on the drivers name or something, but I still can't see this whole idea being new-user friendly, and I do believe it will keep learners from learning.

Quote from CSU1 :

I understand what you say Gunn, let's be honest here this stricter approach you talk of is in effect already in place it's called the private server!

On any given day, on any server if the drivers feel they need some privacy from crashers they just have to close the doors and race with their pals and let the rest of world race away, I think it would be wrong to add a restriction to on-line gameplay for everyone.

Im not against this idea and do think that something needs to be done about the crasher that joins and ruins the day...maybe some sort of black mark system on the drivers name or something, but I still can't see this whole idea being new-user friendly, and I do believe it will keep learners from learning.

The private server is the ultimate exception currently but is plagued with some fundamental problems that make it undesireable.

- Not everyone has 20 pals handy whenever they want to race.
- The server is not accessable to the majority of racers who may wish to participate.
- A password must be privately shared for access.

Allowing server-side options to control the racing environment in the ways suggested so far would give you the best of both worlds: a controlled environment for those who desire one that is accessable by the majority of users for which it is designed to cater to.

There are dozens of empty private servers and they are only accessable to certain groups and individuals but for sure there must be many many racers who could be populating them quite happily. If these were not private but instead relied on conditional access I believe there would be fewer of them than there are now and that they would be populated by more racers more often. Furthermore I believe that the racing in such environments would be of higher quality than your average public pick-up race. I understand that this type of racing isn't everyone's cup of tea but then again we aren't all the same in many ways. I think the best way to cater for the many groups in LFS is to go ahead and give them options instead of just leaving the gate open to the hit and miss public gaming that occurs in other gaming genres.

What if I have no PB for that combo? Then will it not let me connect? If you are allowed to connect without a PB, then once you do your first lap, you will be kicked if you are more then 10s behind the wr?

-1000000000000

Quote from wheel4hummer :

What if I have no PB for that combo? Then will it not let me connect?

Correct.

Quote from wheel4hummer :

If you are allowed to connect without a PB, then once you do your first lap, you will be kicked if you are more then 10s behind the wr?

You will not be allowed to connect. No kicking is involved.

Quote from wheel4hummer :

-1000000000000

Oh get off the fence.

Quote from wheel4hummer :

What if I have no PB for that combo? Then will it not let me connect? If you are allowed to connect without a PB, then once you do your first lap, you will be kicked if you are more then 10s behind the wr?

-1000000000000

As an experienced driver you wouldn't have too much of a problem making the cut. Time and time again people join, do a lap and I think 'woohoo! someone I can beat' Within what seems a very short space of time my ass is being whipped! This, mind you, is by someone who copied 'This is your first time in this car/track' message!
+1 and however many zeroes.

The system certainly has it's uses and I can't see it ever becoming "the norm". One alteration would be that the WR + x be specified relatively rather than absolutely, e.g. minimum 120% of WR. 10 seconds off the pace is easy peasy at FE Club (or, shudders, the oval)... but almost a reasonable time at something like FE Black.

No need to debate this, it can already be achieved with insim. Minus the "no kicking"-part.

I also like Bob's suggestion of using a percentage instead of a set time, this would even things out for longer / shorter tracks.

The idea (from a dMr perspective) is just to exclude those who are a danger to themselves. Slow, noob, or whatever drivers with the right approach should not have a problem reaching our proposed cut off.

Also not mentioned much other than in post 1, is the possibility of allowing all connection’s to the server during qualifying, with the enforcement only coming into play when a race starts. (Although qualifying isn't really the place for practice.)

If it’s possible to enable / disable the ‘feature’ live, the first few hours of an evening could allow all comers, with the kick being enforced at a set time / admin’s prerogative. This would mean that those enjoying some good racing (including first timers, and those of a lesser ability) could continue with their evening’s (day, night etc) enjoyment, without the need for the server to go private.

We have people with a broad range of abilities racing on the dMr server, and welcome noobs as well as experienced racers.

I expect that the proposed ‘feature’ would be used on some server’s to exclude all but the fastest racer’s, but I would also expect to see some servers which are currently private to go public as it becomes possible to have pickup races without them being spoiled by people who should really do some offline practice first. The usual kick / ban tools would still be available for those who are just complete idiots intent on spoiling others racing.

Just my penny's worth. (It could still be a bad idea...... debate, debate)

dMrDeetz