That will prove it either way I reckon.
Another thing that seems to cause oversteer just as you come off the brakes is too little front bump or spring rate.
That will prove it either way I reckon.
Another thing that seems to cause oversteer just as you come off the brakes is too little front bump or spring rate.
But wouldn't the wieght transfer be the wrong way for front bump? rebound maybe, prehaps that needs to be strengthened slightly to allow a more gradual wieght transfer. As I don't really drive the FWD cars in LFS I can't the scenario into my head. I can't see how the rear should step out (Dramatically as Blowtus puts it) at all with the wieght moving rewards and effectilvly giving the rear more grip, unless it was already on the limit of adhesion or there was a bump, overeaction from the suspension to blame for it. . . . If you are under power then that should surely induce understeer rather than oversteer . . . Hmmmmmm.
*Goes of to ponder some more.*
*Goes of to ponder some more.*
That's is what you might think but in fact it is because as you hit the brakes the springs compress. Then when you release the brake the spring compression is also released. This does two things, 1) lift the front of the car, 2) push the tyres down into the track. It is the second effect that causes the oversteer.
This is important to know because this is what gives trailbraking it's advantage. Just as you turn in and you come off the brakes you have a bit more front end grip to get the nose to the apex.
not sure
about all this
And the point of your post is...? 
What are you not sure about? "All this" is kinda, well very unspecific. Might wanna have a look at the Setup Guide?
What are you not sure about? "All this" is kinda, well very unspecific. Might wanna have a look at the Setup Guide?
I'm not sure what you mean? Please expand.
Damn I always thought toe out was good so I dialled in heaps of toe out on my XF and the turn in improved heaps so I was happy didn't notice any sliding around, guess the rest of my set is stuffed hehe. Just when I was getting used to it and getting some decent times this info comes along. Oh well, always looking for ways to improve the set and my driving knowldge.
I've recently set the toe to 0 on a lot of my setups, even the LX6 and FO8, and found it drives just great for me. I used to use a bit of rear toe in on a lot of cars.
I found the lx6 extremely sensitive to front tyre pressure - low pressure responded slower and didn't cause sudden spikes in force to upset the rear, but on some tracks higher pressure was required for straight line speed. I was able to make the car driveable again (without resorting to major mid corner grip reduction methods like crap front tyres / camber etc) by toeing out the fronts by as much as 0.6. This had the effect of reducing the 'dartyness' of the front end, which kept the back end much more settled. Overall corner speed was not affected. I also ran toe in on the rears (up to about 0.5) for better traction on the rear putting power down.
been a while since i read up on this but.
a lot of the road going subaru imprezas are set with 1m toe in, prodrive themselves recommend this IIRC
the thinking is, that when you are hard on the brakes, the wheels splay backwards a little anyway, so hitting the brakes hard, can give you perfect alignment when needed for the corner.
not sure if LFS is that advanced??!!??
a lot of the road going subaru imprezas are set with 1m toe in, prodrive themselves recommend this IIRC
the thinking is, that when you are hard on the brakes, the wheels splay backwards a little anyway, so hitting the brakes hard, can give you perfect alignment when needed for the corner.
not sure if LFS is that advanced??!!??
No, the suspension holding doesn't bent in LFS.
So whatever you do to the wheel, the toe in angle stays perfectly the same unless you steer.
Vain
So whatever you do to the wheel, the toe in angle stays perfectly the same unless you steer.
Vain
I guess such a feature could be attributed to chassis flex 
I´n not sure about this. Months ago I played a little bit with mechanik and with 10.000 HP+ the suspension bends in turn 3 on KY1.
Notice the difference between "the suspension holding doesn't bend" and "the suspension bends".
Vain
Vain
It is dependant on the car and suspension geometry though. Depends how much ackerman is designed in to the geometry. Every car is different IRL. Also depends on the stiffness of springs and roll bars as to how much toe in/out you might need.
I've always used normal front tyres on most road cars but since the last physics update it wasn't quite good. Last sunday I started with the lx6 with super fronts and it wasn't bad at all!
The 'bite' of the tyres, as if they grip too much at low slip angles, used to launch me into oversteer, imo, way too easily and quickly. So I've been thinking and set parallel steer to 0, lowered caster and been playing with toe. That helped quite a bit.
What I don't yet understand is that I was 10 secs slower than the WR! I will try to improve a bit more but I find it strange that I had no trouble being fast in some sims yet far off in LFS. (it was Fern Bay Black btw so at least there are nearly 3 minutes in a lap..) For one there is a big difference in braking. As it seems 'hotlappers' tune the braking so that it just not locks up. I heel and toe (which I'm not great at) plus my brakes can lock up..
But I always say that before you can properly judge something you have to not suck at it so I'll have to hardcore some tracktime in and see where I end up..
I do think though that while LFS is the best sim, its not perfect of course. So if LFS would behave 'better' with 'unrealistic' toe values, I'd still use it knowing that the sim itself is of course a compromise in many ways..
The 'bite' of the tyres, as if they grip too much at low slip angles, used to launch me into oversteer, imo, way too easily and quickly. So I've been thinking and set parallel steer to 0, lowered caster and been playing with toe. That helped quite a bit.
What I don't yet understand is that I was 10 secs slower than the WR! I will try to improve a bit more but I find it strange that I had no trouble being fast in some sims yet far off in LFS. (it was Fern Bay Black btw so at least there are nearly 3 minutes in a lap..) For one there is a big difference in braking. As it seems 'hotlappers' tune the braking so that it just not locks up. I heel and toe (which I'm not great at) plus my brakes can lock up..
But I always say that before you can properly judge something you have to not suck at it so I'll have to hardcore some tracktime in and see where I end up..
I do think though that while LFS is the best sim, its not perfect of course. So if LFS would behave 'better' with 'unrealistic' toe values, I'd still use it knowing that the sim itself is of course a compromise in many ways..
I've done that combo too. Can't remember how slow I was. WR has probably changed since then. But it's one of the hardest combos out there I reckon so just keep driving it. You'll find a bucket load more time eventually I'm sure.
Yeah, don't give up 
I'm currently trying to get the hang of FE Black REV with LX4. So far my best was something like 2:55.xx, the WR being just under 2:54. I started with barely being able to reach the 3 minute mark, but after getting used to the track and some fiddling on the setup it got better. It felt awsome doing some changes to the setup that should "theoretically" affect this and that, and lo and behold, it actually had the desired effect while driving
. In general, try soft front tyres to smoothen out the often much too erratic steering inputs and try to eliminate the lift-off oversteer by adjusting front and rear dampers accordingly.
The LX cars are also beautifully responsive to your steering inputs, so I guess I'll stick with that combo for a while. I'm just glad I tried the CSR, it helps me immensly with consistency. Not only is the immersion much better, but also the LX4 engine noise isn't that awfully distractive anymore.
I'm currently trying to get the hang of FE Black REV with LX4. So far my best was something like 2:55.xx, the WR being just under 2:54. I started with barely being able to reach the 3 minute mark, but after getting used to the track and some fiddling on the setup it got better. It felt awsome doing some changes to the setup that should "theoretically" affect this and that, and lo and behold, it actually had the desired effect while driving
. In general, try soft front tyres to smoothen out the often much too erratic steering inputs and try to eliminate the lift-off oversteer by adjusting front and rear dampers accordingly.The LX cars are also beautifully responsive to your steering inputs, so I guess I'll stick with that combo for a while. I'm just glad I tried the CSR, it helps me immensly with consistency. Not only is the immersion much better, but also the LX4 engine noise isn't that awfully distractive anymore.
Slightly off topic, indeed, I find all engine sounds 'good' but the lx4 has some sort of nasty type sound that is very unpleasant to the ears!
That's why I'm using CSR (that sound remixer) with it 
I just drive the lx6.. most of the time I'm going "YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGGGGGGGGGG" from the insane speeds anyway, not an engine can win from that..
I was about to mention that. Road cars often use toe to correct for
bushing deflection. Porsche's 928 had that weissach rear suspension
which played around with that in order to tame the rear end.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weissach_Axle
A few cars also had similar arangements like the 80's RX7, and isn't that
what the super-hicas on the 240/180sx was all about also ? Race ready
RX7s generally use 'solid' bushing since it gives more predictable handling.
Since LFS doesn't simulate bushing deflection (as far as i can tell),
there is going to be differences with reality. Sometimes LFS is a little
TOO perfect. It's still relatively limited in suspension designs though.
I'm having trouble with a set for Kyoto National and found this thread in my search. I incorporated a couple ideas dicussed here, but am still running in problems. I got the car to turn in nicely, but now I've got big time oversteer on corner exit. Since it's a low downforce track, I'm looking for mechanical grip.
Also, I not heating my tires evenly. On the rears, he inside edge is 80+ while the outside each is still in the 60's. I keep pulling camber out, but I'm afraid I might remove too much and negatively affect handling. I've thought about setting the tires to almost flat, since that seems to be what the temps are indicating.
I started with my AC Club set, which is based upon the ver. T WR set, IIRC. I swtiched to R2's, bled off a ton of air pressure, added front ARB, and took off some front wing. Set it attached.
I thought about decreasing rear spring, but wasn't sure if that was the right thing so do since Kyoto has a lot of curbs to roll over.
Any suggestions?
Thanks
Also, I not heating my tires evenly. On the rears, he inside edge is 80+ while the outside each is still in the 60's. I keep pulling camber out, but I'm afraid I might remove too much and negatively affect handling. I've thought about setting the tires to almost flat, since that seems to be what the temps are indicating.
I started with my AC Club set, which is based upon the ver. T WR set, IIRC. I swtiched to R2's, bled off a ton of air pressure, added front ARB, and took off some front wing. Set it attached.
I thought about decreasing rear spring, but wasn't sure if that was the right thing so do since Kyoto has a lot of curbs to roll over.
Any suggestions?
Thanks
why have you got toe out on the rears? In my experience this produces power oversteer - toe them in for more power understeer.
Run more camber on the rear, increase pressure to compensate. Suggest increasing pressure to max all round.
Run more camber on the rear, increase pressure to compensate. Suggest increasing pressure to max all round.
THey were toe out originlly, but have them toe-in just for that reason. I'll try adding more.
I actually pulled camber out of the rear to even out tire temps. I'll add some back in and see what happens.
The ol' toe-in/out question
(51 posts, started )
FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG