I was going to offer myself as a test driver but when I saw Vain's post (above) it struck me that we could actually be able to pull this off on theoretical stage in form of computer models. Making all the drawings and calculations&part lists and putting it into "LFS car" package might get some positive attention.
Building a real life car with all bits and parts is huge task for a community like LFSforum. It just isn't possible, unless the people involved know each others well (=group of friends). But building a virtual car with all the information to make it real isn't impossible.
All it needs is some basic guidelines to start with...
I like this idea but there needs to be a person to head it who can say "right, you're not qualified so you're off the team" but motivate the rest well enough. Apart from genuine managerial skills, he'd also need some engineering knowledge just to keep the car going on target for the original idea. On top of that, this shouldn't be done by assembling a team first and then asking via poll "ok, so what would you like to make?" because half of the people will not be happy with what they're making and that's not how it should be. A small group of people should start by answering the general questions that Tristan asked above. Then these people must come forward and ask "ok, so who would like to help us with this and how?" in order to get the team together. I know I wouldn't be interested in working on an MRT thing because I simply despise it but I'd love to work on a small, closed top RWD sportscar.
Sounds awfully complicated this project. If you want to compare simulated and real car we already have three, the BF1 is of course impossible, and that leaves us the MRT and the RaceAbout. So it could be more easier to get your hands on those than build your own. But of course if that is not the purpose, may I ask what is it? For knitting the community closer together it would be a rather complicated and difficult and most likely an expensive task. Making a car to LFS would be something more realistic, but that of course would still need participation from the Almighty ones (the Scavier). And while it would be extremely cool, the point of the car would had been lost, as it wouldn't have it's real counterpart if that is what matters here?
It's a nice idea, but wouldn't really serve a purpose. If you can get a real car maker or other organization interested and then have their car to LFS like it's been, it's much better. They have some, maybe a promotion/testing platform, some advertising and we have a car. But with this project, when it would be finished you would go testing and say "Woah, LFS is dam close". And leave the car gather dust
I'm not saying you shouldn't, not at all, I wish you good luck!
oh...and I wonder who would like to do the 3D-modeling? *gough*
*shrugs*
I'll start giving my opinions:
Wheelbase:Track ratio
The car needs to meet, among others, two requirements: Be light, and have two seats. Thus we have a given width, and can only make it short. The graphical design needs to follow the idea of maximum wheelbase at minimum car lenght.
The vehicle shouldn't be wider than 1.6-1.7 meters, and no longer than 3.5 meters. Height should be a function of seating position, which is determined by the position of the engine and the wheelbase. Something like 1.3 meters should be achievable.
Top Speed or Acceleration
Top speed needs propulsion and low wind resistance, which costs both much time and money. We don't have that.
Road, Road/Track or Track
I said earlier, that if we want to design a racecar we could just join the local FSAE team. My idea is: We design a car that is, in it's concept, basically able to be modified to be a proper roadcar. To prove that point the car needs to meet the requirements of motorsports. It needs to be performant, reliable and efficient in terms of cost to performance.
The general concept is that, in the end, we could give the CAD-files to a manufacturer and all they'd have to do is stick a proper frame and a proper interior into it and that should be enough to make it a road-legal series car.
Engine position - Front, Rear, Mid? Longitudinal or Transverse?
If it is supposed to be reasonably quick I'd go for a longitudinal 4 cylinder mid-engine.
Gearbox position
If it's a mid-engined vehicle and the rear wheels are driven there isn't much space between the crankshaft and the rear axis to choose from. :smile:
Gear ratios - quick change box, or pre-selected gears from a road car?
Gear ratios are a function of wind resistance, power and aimed top speed. I'll add a paragraph about taking already existing parts.
Gearbox type - h-pattern, sequential...
To find financial support the vehicle needs to be 'sensible'. An H-pattern gearbox would meet that requirement.
I add the following point: Engine capacity - forced induction or NA?
I'd either go for a 2 litre NA or a ~1.5 litre turbocharged engine.
Already existing parts versus self-made parts:
This project has an excessive likelyhood of stalling during it's development.
Thus I'd suggest the following design-procedure:
1. Requirements and engineering design
This is basically the questionnaire above. Of course it needs to get a lot longer in the future before we can regard this as finished.
2. Graphical design
How is it supposed to look? Which dimensions does the car have?
* After this point the car could go into LFS. The first success of the project.
3. Alpha-Prototype development
To make the transition from design to physical parts easier we should attempt to build a proof-of-oncept vehicle. That means we build a chassis that can accomodate standard-parts that are already available. This is a quick and easy solution to make the car become reality very quickly. We can already build a driveable vehicle without having developed our own engine. It proves that we can actually produce a vehicle.
The Alpha is built with the financial support from a university and perhaps possible sponsors (f.e., approach BMW for the engine or suspension parts).
4. Beta-Pototype development
We have proven that we can develop a vehicle and we have experience and a 'known issues'-list from the Alpha. We can now make the transition from bought parts to self developed parts. At this point support from univerities should be easy to achieve, because we hold something in our hands other than a ppt-file.
The support from universities is important, because that way we can reach engineering-manpower and financial support to tackle the more difficult things that require advanced production techniques.
5. Finished vehicle
:rally_dri
Legal issues:
Nothing may be contributed to the project until the project has officially started. To join the project every member agrees that every contriution is considered equal among the contributors. Everyone agrees to never claim to own more of the project because he has contributed more. This is to prevent legal issues and claims in the later stage.
I think its a great idea but sadly an idea that would be very hard to put into reality. The main problem would be with the managing of a project this scale especially when we are scattered all over. People would have to come together to work on this. Also the financing of a project this scale would be a problem as I would imagine people travelling here and there to meet up also wouldn't be cheap.
I guess it would be possible if someone owned a scrapheap full of cars which then could be recycled but that would still need all of the engineereing brains to get together.
But i guess you never know, this may get off the ground somehow and if it ever does it would certainly be interesting.
What it really comes down to is budget. That will be the limiting factor and will influance other decisions. The next thing is access to machine shop and a qualified machinest. If you don't have that then you need to adapt existing parts instead of building custom parts. If you are going to be adapting exiasing parts to a new purpose then the choice of parts will determin the size of the vehicle.
Then the decision has to be made to build the car to conform to some existing class of racing, some LFS class, or be somthing in its own class. I know of an interesting suspension design but it does not exist in a full scale car and would have to be scaled up, machined from scratch and modified a bit to work but it allows for maximun adjustability.
If this project ever gets off the ground (which would be a fantastic thing to see, and possible with the kind of petrolheads we have round here!) it'd be so cool if the guys could add it to the game
I know nothing about engines or mechanics, but if you want someone for 2D design and body paint after it's made, I'm your man. And I'm also pretty good in a kart
I think a couple of guys (ie. XCNuse seeing as it was his idea and people he nominates) should get together on a group convo on MSN with Tristan. Tristan has to be there so he asks the "300 questions" . XCNuse, you have to be pro-active about this if you want this idea to not go to ruins (and to prove that you're not nuts ). Then answer the questions as a group, and provide some ductability for some based on price and accessibility of the components required. Then this info should be made public and people who offer help with access to components and/or design can help out. That will insure that the car has a strong character and get the project going. So, gogogo! Chop, chop! This thread isn't going to get the project going.
Well, I have access to a basic manual machine shop (no CNC I'm afraid), and I'm a machinist by trade (though I hold no formal qualifications, but I don't see any merit in having any either). But keeping things simple and using as many 'standard' components as possible would be the way to do it. Steering rack from here, uprights from there, that kind of thing. I have some of the prototype Elise front wishbones and uprights I was going to use, so that's the route I'd personally advocate.
But as I said before, I don't have the time to do something like this yet. Maybe later in the year once things have calmed down a bit. Hell, I don't even get time to play LFS anymore, let alone build a car with LFS people!
Budget: The larger the number of supporteres the less hard it becomes to raise the money. That's why Fund Raisers exist. If we have to we can sell candy bars
Just a thought like that. Instead of working on a real car, and then asking the LFS gods to add it in game later, why not just work on a fictional car? I'm sure we've got designers, mechanics, drivers, and motor fans plenty enough to do a car that's pretty well balanced and good looking.
The idea to bring the community together is not a bad idea, and working on a virtual project like that, while basicly being a lot easier to manage than the creation of a real car, Iono, it could almost be made as a contest. Teams of designers making a car, and the 3 best entries being included at some point in the development of LFS or something.
Unfortunately the community as a whole propably lacks the education.
We're not talking about taking some pipes, welding them together and bolting the engine from someone's garage to it.
Beside the graphical design all contributors should have at least one or two years of engineering studies under their belt. Everything else is just too much guesswork.
Well, I don't see why 'non-engineers' aren't allowed to suggest ideas, as long as they accept the decision of said engineers when their idea is rubbished
And I will probably hunt down and kill/maim the first person to suggest Nitrous Oxide or anything remotely ricery.
I was seeing this competition thing as a way to include more people, because you don't need 300 to make a car. On a project, too many is just as bad as not enough. But I can see how the competition veers away from the original idea.
Anyway, this would be interesting. I'd hop in with my notions of architectural design
Oh man.. you guys are great. I've almost fallen off my chair from some of the posts you guys have made This is why I love this community; you guys rock!
OT: Great idea, it'd be really really neat to see this come to fruition. I have zero engineering ability (I can look at a suspension model and interpret how it might work, mechanically... sometimes :P) but I don't think I can design those parts. Bodywork, that I can do. Paintwork? That I can also do. Naming... well... not as such, but paint and bodywork design I can do
I think what needs to happen first is a decision on what sort of machine to make. (small, open wheel, prototype, aero aids, power supply, N/A or Forced Induction, etc...) Once that is decided, rough ideas can be sorted, and initial designwork/engineering can be done.
I guess the big question is not 'would it be cool?', but 'can it be done?'
three main resources to consider
time, money, expertise
If there is enough expertise in the community, do those experts have the time to at least do some detailed resource analysis?
work out:
how many man hours (engineer, mechanic, designer etc...) will be required (multiply by 3)...
how much money will be needed (multiply by 3)...
at least then we will know how crazy an idea this is
I guess folks who don't live in the 'base' country could go on a 'Build a LFS race car'' holiday... so with a couple of dedicated skilled permanent project leaders and a steady trickle of willing workers...
of course then there's travel expenses etc. to deal with...
If it worked, it would surely get some media coverage...
). Then answer the questions as a group, and provide some ductability for some based on price and accessibility of the components required. Then this info should be made public and people who offer help with access to components and/or design can help out. That will insure that the car has a strong character and get the project going. So, gogogo! Chop, chop! This thread isn't going to get the project going. 
