I agree but the reason for LFS not allowing you to make your own car models and tracks is the WIP state of the physics - ie. things keep getting added and it would be messy with tracks having to be updated with every patch. AFAIK, the devs do have some intentions to make LFS moddable once complete.
BTW (and I know someone asked this question some time ago, just wondering if anything changed since then) have you managed to give LFS a spin albeit only in demo and if so, what are your thoughts?
The Liscense levels correspond to the development of LFS. S1 was the original, we are currently in Alpha of S2. After Beta is released for S2, there are plans for S3. That there are only 3 developers, along with the ambitious scale of the goal of LFS (all-encompassing simulation), nothing will come without there tremendous dedication. I believe I heard once that S3 is completed, LFS Might be opened up to 3rd party add-ons, mods if you will, where the community can design and bring in there own vehicles and tracks, Possibly.
That said, A Forumla SAE team brought their vehicle to LFS a year (2 now?) ago, and I believe was able to use it to test suspension ideas before doing it for real.
Dennis, out of curiosity, how are you funding the development of this project? Are you just swallowing the bill and hoping the consumer version will pay for the development in the end, or is there something we don't know about? :P
I'm also curious as to your opinions on PIR itself. I've driven it in several games, and I know they are not exactly accurate 100% to the real thing, but I never liked the track personally. I found it a little too flat, and too stop and go fo my liking. I personally like more flowing tracks that use large elevation changes to test you (like Mosport). What kind of tracks do you like the most from your experience?
[EDIT]
Maybe closer to three years, actually. Remember, S2 has been out for around a year and a half now
to try LFS i'd want at least a steering wheel and preferably pedals too. i'll get around to getting a set (been meaning to for some time now) but right now a lot of projects are taking up time and energy. if the devs decide to include the dp1 in the sim then this would definitely get bumped up in priority
and yes, playing with cars, motorcycles and such takes a high priority for me because it's something that i truly enjoy. as for funding dp1 it's basically a field-of-dreams thing looked at as a matter of priorites, it's actually cheaper than putting a kid through 4 years of private college and LOTS of people manage that. i choose not to have chilren, therefore i can put the resources towards the only kid in my life - myself
Classic! Ah thats awesome. Please keep up the good work.
Before Bikini completion, which do you think will be faster round PIR, Bikini or DP1 Prototype? I would guess eventually they'd be close around PIR, with Bikini being a little faster (hmm, slicks on DP1 proto...)? Tighter tracks the DP1 proto would win, and once you get DP1 V8 production version.... Game Over.
Anyway, your site is about the best ever, and you seemingly have the ability to cover about every type of sports car(and non sports car) I've ever considered. Your Megabusa was awesome, the equivelent LX cars of LFS are the reason why I bought LFS. The Cooper S and XB were both cars I loved for apparent lightness and quickness, again you own(ed). The M Coupe was a too personal favorite when all my friends thought, "wow, thats ugly!" I think the Atom is perhaps one of the purest modern interpretations of what sports cars should be (albeit you're crazy with close to 400hp). I've never really lusted after M5, but curious just what all that power would be like. Elise's(es?) are cool but never Really made me go all burnt clutch... Thanks, You've been an inspiration to a lot of people to go for it.
dp1 proto vs bikini will actualy be a very interesting comparison. i'm very curious to see the outcome myself. dp1 proto has decent power/weight (about 5 lb/hp), bikini is significantly better at about 3 lb/hp. of course it'll be very traction-limited. but power/drag of the dp1 proto is not what i'd want. i can definitely feel acceleration diminishing at 120 mph but of course i wasn't using all of the power either (short-shifting at 8K). straightline speed feels subjectively only a little better than a 245hp atom so a 400hp one would probably prevail there. cornering-wise dp1 is much better than the atom. others have recorded a peak of about 1.3g in their atoms on r compounds, which is roughly the same as the elise (makes sense). dp1 is closer to 1.7-1.8g on same tires so i think that will be a big factor because a lot of time at PIR is spent in the turns despite the long straights. this is down to much lower cg, wide track, almost no roll, better camber control, more tire and 30% less weight.
my rough guess, the dp1 proto should get into mid-to-high teens (i.e. 1:15-1:17) wherease bikini will stay in the low 20's (1:21-1:23). when both are fully sorted and when i'm calibrated for the speed, that is. the first few trackdays of the year will be far short of that. actually in the first dp1 proto outing my goal was 1:35 and i managed to just get under 1:30 with only two clear laps in the whole day, so it's encouraginig. and this was taking turn 10 7mph slower than i do in the mini
for reference, 1:15 is a typical ALMS GT2 race lap at PIR.
it will definitely be a year of much learning. stay tuned
I have a 20 meg jpg of PIR. I patched it together from about 30 individual photos. I was thinking about developing a track model for it, but I am not that talented with 3DS. If anybody wants a copy, just let me know.
Good luck with the project and maybe I will see at PIR one of these days. I am hoping to do some lapping days with the local BMW club this year.
one thing that makes it easier is that there is virtually no elevation change (about 5 feet, literally). there ARE some subtle off-cambers that make driving it a lot trickier than one would think. they make the car do things you wouldn't expect and leave you wondering 'wtf was THAT?'. running a bike there makes you wonder even more. it took a couple track walks for me to figure it out. so if anyone is actually going to try and build it, email me through [email protected] and i'll be happy to share whatever i know.
Well, Dennis.. I think the first step in getting PIR would be to approach the management of PIR. Kind of like we approached you. As the others said though, S3 is a ways off still. Who knows though, we got the BMW-Sauber F1.06 in the middle of S2 development.
To be completely honest, when joen and I started this thread, I didn't expect such a warm welcome for the car, but once again this community has managed to impress me.
(PS, have you got your own CFD program or do you use someone elses?)
PIR, now that's a place I've been to a few times! Never got to drive on the track yet sadly (not even for the holiday light shows), but it sure would be neat to have the track in the game. As far as I know the track has not been very well represented in sim racing. But it is one of the USA NW's crown jewels
PIR is a city park (it's owned by the city of portland) so it's pretty likely there won't be a problem if there is desire to add the track. next month i'll be talking to the guy who runs it (in regards to dp1 testing) and can mention the possibility if you like.
on the subject of PIR - the track is under attack by some people at city hall and now there is an organization formed to protect it. we are looking for more members (there's strength in numbers when it comes to politics!) so if some of you would join it would be awesome - there is no cost and you won't be spammed. http://www.friendsofpir.com
i too am impressed (and honored) by the support shown by the lfs community for the inclusion of dp1. actually one of the greatest benefits i've found in sharing my development process with the world is that people get interested and sometimes offer to contribute. for example all the various CFD runs were done for me by several different people who just wanted to be a part of the project and to learn something in the process.
Support a local Raceway? I'm there. What people don't realise in some areas is that a legitimate raceway like PIR is the best way to fight street racing: Provide a legal outlet. From what I hear the track fees are to high to be effective though. If there had been a road-course anywhere near Corpus Christi most of the motorsports club I was part of would have raced there instead of the streets.
If PIR's a city park, getting support shouldnt be hard at all. This is especially true in the preservation aspect, since once you put something on the internet you can never kill it. I've been concidering approaching Mid Ohio Sports Car Course for the same reason.
I've just run the car through my analyser (guessing what figures aren't available), it looks like it should accelerate blisteringly fast. The only car that's given faster numbers was a top fuel dragster! I'm getting the fastest acceleration with the torque split around 25% (my program can't handle dynamic torque splits caused by a central LSD).
I just caught on to this thread but I'd also like to say that I'd love to see the DP1 in LFS. It looks like a awesome vehicle and it would be alot of fun in LFS, and in real life I imagine.
About PIR, I was actually wondering if there are Public Track Test days or can you only get on the track if you are part of a club? I live about 20 minutes from it and I'd love to do a few laps.
Bob, that pretty much matches my own calcs the actual gear ratios are:
2.42
1.71
1.3
1.08
0.92
final drive is 3.889. tires are 225/45-13 (20" OD). a fixed torque split is a reasonably good way to model the driveline.
Micaoct, you can run with any club. all brands are welcome and every club has a novice run group and provides instructors (i instruct for porsche, bmw and lotus clubs). some require you to join but you can do it on the spot. costs range from $125-175 for the day depending on the club and whether you're a member. typically that gets you about 100-140 miles of on-track driving. the schedule is at http://www.portlandraceway.com i'll be at the alfa day on march 24. what car(s) i bring will depend on weather and how much i get done by then
i hope you can come out - it's a lot of fun (but be warned, it's addictive!)
only requirement is that you will need your own helmet and it should be SA2000 or SA2005 rated (some clubs accept motorcycle M rated helmets but many don't).
for alfa day just show up at the gates at 7:30 am (there is no preregistration). for porsche and bmw (and some others) you have to pre-register and those event fill up early, especially in novice group. there is club contact info on PIR site, you can get in touch with each club directly for details.
I hope it isn't a bad subject DP, but I was wondering:
The initial timeline goals for DP1 creation/production proved overly ambitious. Do you think you just underestimated the level of involvement for 1 man to actually design and create his own car?
it's very difficult to plan something when you don't know what you're up against yet. too many variables. even when you've been down the development path a few times you can still really only set targets and have contingencies, rather than actual plans. that's why new product delays are routine, even from companies sitting on a few billion in cash given that this is my first car design (i'm a software geek by education) and factoring in the fact that i have to rely on outside vendors and also somehow pay the bills, there is a big variance on when things actually get done. yes, it was technically feasible to get it done in under two years. but i'm still pretty happy with five. the important thing is not to give up and to keep moving forward. there are some products where if you miss the window it's yesterday's news. something like the dp1 will be relevant for a while to come and i have big plans for follow-on projects
I had never seen or heard of the DP1 (or Bikini) prior to this thread. I must say, after looking at your site I'm amazed, Dennis. Both cars are just unreal in the specs department, and the commitment and artistry you show towards building is just incredible.
If you're ever in the Seattle area shoot me a PM. I'd be happy to give you some seat time on my big screen sim cockpit. Especially when/if the DP1 gets added into the game.
