Modding is damn fun and creative especially doing stuff from scratch. Sure it can be messy, atleast for rfactor that dont have a good structure for the mods. But with some common sense and guidelines among the modders it should be ok. Sure there will be various quality but people keep improving and learning from eachother and maybe cooperating. Modding is definately not a bad thing.

rFactor is the modders dream atm, and games like Netkar pro and Drivers Republic is made moddable. Its good for the simracing community. And as i
understand LFS will be that too, why be so damn conservative guys?

Quote from frankwer :

Modding is definately not a bad thing.

Maybe not in your opinion, I personally think all modding does is dilute the racing thats available for a given sim.

Say NO to modding

This is all sounding very familiar. I'm pretty sure that's what I said waaaaay back up there ^^

I think the best example for the disastrous nature of people's creations right now is the autocross editor. Since folks found the Blackwood ramp, we've had a huge number of layouts that you can't actually drive because one lap trashes your car. Now imagine you can make an entire new track like that - shocking.

The only way (that I can see) to keep the online community populated is the prefab idea I suggested before, but that would need some serious customisation options. No downloads, no version numbers, just a quick bit of automatic jiggery pokery when you log in and Bob's your mechanic

As a side note, I'm thinking back to old school Car Wars on the Spectrum which had a crazy track editor. And Rock 'n' Roll Racing on the SNES had a similar idea. I'm still considering the list of variables that would be needed to transfer the idea to a modern sim...scary.

Quote from Dajmin :

This is all sounding very familiar. I'm pretty sure that's what I said waaaaay back up there ^^

I think the best example for the disastrous nature of people's creations right now is the autocross editor. Since folks found the Blackwood ramp, we've had a huge number of layouts that you can't actually drive because one lap trashes your car. Now imagine you can make an entire new track like that - shocking.

The only way (that I can see) to keep the online community populated is the prefab idea I suggested before, but that would need some serious customisation options. No downloads, no version numbers, just a quick bit of automatic jiggery pokery when you log in and Bob's your mechanic

As a side note, I'm thinking back to old school Car Wars on the Spectrum which had a crazy track editor. And Rock 'n' Roll Racing on the SNES had a similar idea. I'm still considering the list of variables that would be needed to transfer the idea to a modern sim...scary.

Again, you are basing this to uncontrolled environment (autocross layouts) that actually has prefab components, that is not how to avoid problem.

Some sort of rating system with central repository is only way that I can see it could work, when it is done together with tools that are not allowing stupid values to put in.

Big problem with rating is that one have to actually research as much data as when making mod or track, only then can be checked how accurate and good it is. Maybe it should be standard procedure that with track/mod all researched material/sources would be put into system where those who like to rate would download and check different parts of it, spread the work. This is just raw idea, not thought very throughly.

Anyway rating should not be made so that everyone can just click that full points to mod he likes etc. that is not too well working, there have to be some verification that rater knows what he is doing. Also rating I'm thinking is not very traditional as traditional does no good here.

Here are few things you needs to look at before making LFS moddable:

Problem 1:
For LFSworld to be able to store hotlaps and online data on certain track and with certain car, the object x itself cannot be updated "little by little"
Problem 2:
A system in LFS that detects and verifies that that 3rd party tracks and cars and that they are indeed the newest/valid version before you join on a server running with the mod. This system should also include somekind of master check to check that the server is running a valid version as well or, again, the stats in lfsworld are no use.
Problem 3:
Who and how it is decided what is a quality mod and what is not. Is it based on superior 3d-models with gorgeus looks and good performance on slower computers? Could a boxy drifting mod make it through with superior simulation specs? What if someone wants to make a mod of the topgear soccer? It could be great fun, I admit but in the end it has nothing to do with racing sim. Reviewing mods is a lot of work and in the end it is just the public opinion and racers online that make a good mod worth to use. After all, a moon buggy racing sim with moon gravity and very bumpy offroad track can be very fun as well.
Problem 4:
Mods need support. You need to be able to download mods from somewhere, you need info where that place is. You want to know that you are getting the latest version which is valid. You may want it to work with lfsworld and you want it all for free. Can the devs take money to provide support for a Ferrari mod? Probably not. Would it make sense to do it for free? No.
Problem 5:
Everyone needs to start somewhere and everybody wants to test their creations online. The mods need testing before releasing. Should it be done by having a beta stage where the updates are coming as they come or is it just that only finished mods can get through? To make the mod work online do I need to spends hours and hours to get it to work on my own server.
Problem 6:
Tools?
Problem 7:
Testing?
Problem 8:
Bugs?
Problem 9:
Support inside LFS. Setups and replays. Installing and removing mods. Making it possible to create different rulesets for different types of events. Physics, using some base variables&constants that all mods must use or allow mods to tweak everything.
Problem 10:
Last but not least: Documentation, helps and tutorials.

I don't mind that idea in theory, it's just how well it'd actually work in practice that worries me. You're either talking putting quality control in the hands of the players (a scary thought in itself) or you're giving the dev team an extra job to do when they have to stand over and make sure the tracks are actually worth using.

Right now the first option isn't bad. I trust the majority of the licensed players to choose tracks that are good to race on (although at the same time I'm reminded of the endless list of GTR/AS3 servers).

However, as the game expands and the community becomes less "close" (for want of a better word) it will be the most populated teams who control what tracks are kept live, because they'll have the most people to vote their tracks up.

I'm enjoying this conversation a lot

On my prefab idea I'm now up to 6 sliders per track section, with a whole seperate part for bumps/potholes

Will master server be server forever? Surely not.

I would say that in some stage LFS master server model should evolve to something that is not depending for single machine, but is more like P2P network where users can host nodes. Similar way mod hosting could be arranged that are different people again and simple script would connect these repositories to these nodes, clients connect to this network of nodes and this way no load or dependency of devs no more, but surely this will be only last stage of LFS development as modding in general.

Well just one possibility. I sure like load sharing

dajmin, prefab idea is nice, you sure know that game Spore? Have you seen creation tools of that? Imagine same thing with tracks, you take corner, then you can twist and manipulate that and attach to existing part of track, with some good designing would work with cars too. Also suspensions etc, you take wishbone and move manipulate it to right shape and size etc. There is of course limits as in real world objects. Very good

Spore character creation video

Quote from JTbo :

Will master server be server forever? Surely not.

I would say that in some stage LFS master server model should evolve to something that is not depending for single machine, but is more like P2P network where users can host nodes. Similar way mod hosting could be arranged that are different people again and simple script would connect these repositories to these nodes, clients connect to this network of nodes and this way no load or dependency of devs no more, but surely this will be only last stage of LFS development as modding in general.

Well just one possibility. I sure like load sharing

I'm sure it is safe to say that as long as LFS is being developed the master server stays. And imho it works very well. Of course when the end is coming closer after S3 being finished () things will probably change. How? Not really important atm.

Drivers Republic use peer to peer sharing. The clients have an option if they wanna share their files or not. Quite irritating if they dont if there is no alternative download location

Quote from Hyperactive :

I'm sure it is safe to say that as long as LFS is being developed the master server stays. And imho it works very well. Of course when the end is coming closer after S3 being finished () things will probably change. How? Not really important atm.

True, true, but I believe that it is convenient to have new system ready for S3, it would be very large change and I'm sure that would be quite interesting to make, *winks to Scawen that is lurking there*

Quote from JTbo :

you sure know that game Spore? Have you seen creation tools of that? Imagine same thing with tracks, you take corner, then you can twist and manipulate that and attach to existing part of track, with some good designing would work with cars too. Also suspensions etc, you take wishbone and move manipulate it to right shape and size etc. There is of course limits as in real world objects. Very good
Spore character creation video

Yes, I've been watching Spore for a few months now. The idea sounds like a lot of fun I do think that this method would work for track design as long as the tools were dynamic enough to cover every possible shape.

Oh, and as for the master server - It's our only protection from crackers so I don't think it'll be going anywhere

I see a lot of people talk about mods quality in rFactor in particular so you should see here how people vote on certain mods http://www.rfactorcentral.com/index.cfm

Quote from Serbman :

I see a lot of people talk about mods quality in rFactor in particular so you should see here how people vote on certain mods http://www.rfactorcentral.com/index.cfm

Here you can see example how not to make voting/rating system, all kids vote 5 for damage realism only because they think mod is cool. That is reason why it can't be made so that everyone votes or that way that you could easily just vote without actually checking how things compare to data etc. Takes time and can't be tied to certain persons very easily, there have to be rules etc. many things to consider.

Quality control is not easy for a sim open to mods. It' not possible yet to restrict user modeled cars to real physical behaviour. In a perfectly simulated environment, bad mods would behave badly and unrealistic ones could not be used at all. I don't see that kind of simulation being feasible on home computers for the next ten years.

Maybe somwhen inbetween, premodeled parts could be made avaiable to build cars, but then it's more of a building simulation. After S3 is finished, the developers may start creating "Live to build" and then start an online engineering community that builds cars for S4.
Even with premanufactured parts, it's hard to avoid bugusing... this would be rather hard to achieve.

It's a shame that so many people out there would certainly build unrealistic, overpowered cars that will ruin the whole LFS experience to others. It's also a shame that there are people out there who can build better cars than the ones included in LFS (more time, no money considerations, ...) - that effectively can't be used because of the more or less crappy other mods.

One possibility to solve this is to allow only approved mods to race online. But then again the approval process would have to be very strict, leading to frustration on both sides and endless flamewars on the forums. Doesn't sound too convincing to me.

I don't think that real cars should be included in the game, if that costs money. That money should be used to improve the simulation. I bet that when S3 comes out, some more (small) manufacturers actually want to be included in the game

No, not more real cars, but more realistic (and detailed) models of the ones we have now. If they appear to be real, they become real. Then people wish to have those cars in front of their house, and not only in the computer.

All in time.

Crashday has track creation using 'prefab' units, and has user modded cars. Its also crap.

I prefer the status quo, since its enjoyable and ballanced, and future changes will continue that trend. As stated, there's many track/car combinations that don't get used much - LFS is far from tapped as it is!

Quote from Serbman :

LFS 3 should be open to modding community

1. LFS S2 is still in alpha phase.
2. It's premature to make suggestions regarding S3.
3. Is there somewhere an official dev statement that the final retail version of LFS S3 will not be open for modding?
4. Please use the forum search feature, an add your thoughts to existing threads. Unless you are simply reiterating what has already been stated.

:\

Quote from JTbo :

dajmin, prefab idea is nice, you sure know that game Spore? Have you seen creation tools of that? Imagine same thing with tracks, you take corner, then you can twist and manipulate that and attach to existing part of track, with some good designing would work with cars too. Also suspensions etc, you take wishbone and move manipulate it to right shape and size etc. There is of course limits as in real world objects. Very good

Spore character creation video

afaik the only scener on the team is victor and he was tracking not coding thus i doubt scawen has the expierence to get a properly good procedural modeling engine up and running any time soon ... plus those are very limited in the shapes they can produce

About the scariest modding I've seen recently is coming out of the Trackmania United game. People will just use every block in the box just because they can- it's nuts I tellsya! 95% of the tracks I've raced on so far are just terrible- no sense of flow, or economical design, most tracks don't make sense and you're left wondering where you're supposed to be going. I don't remember Trackmania being like this before- it's really bad.

Seems like many people here think modding is about using a legobuilding tool, well it could be, but 3D Studio Max is the way to go or some other alternatives. Infact its not that hard to make a track or car in a 3D program when u know the techniques, but sure it`s alot of work.

IMHO it should generally stay closed. But, take the DP1 just as an example - if there are some people on here who could make it, they could contact and work fairly closely with Scavier, and when they're all happy, release it. That way you would have very slow releases of cars/tracks, not much (if any) quicker than we have now, but hopefully very high quality, and keeping the 'feel' of the sim. If people can make stuff that's good enough, then they can.

If anyone approves something, it should be Scawen, Victor or Eric - or one or two other highly trusted people. They know what everything should be like, and that would keep it as an extremely high quality sim. It could be difficult with other people because one person's great is another person's crap.

If it's opened up completely, there will be no control over anything any more - yes, you will probably have some great mods, but the rest will turn into rFactor. Like the games themselves, they can look beautiful, but that doesn't mean they're any good.

The difference with rFactor is, from what I've read (never actually played it), that each mod can change the physics too. In LFS (I suspect) that will never be the case, we will be 'limited' to car and track changes. And as discussed, there will have to be some kind of quality control to make it viable.

Scawen was asked about modding at the LFS '05 meet, by Tristan IIRC, and all he said was he'd watch and see how well it works for games like rFactor.

Quote from Electrik Kar :

About the scariest modding I've seen recently is coming out of the Trackmania United game. People will just use every block in the box just because they can- it's nuts I tellsya! 95% of the tracks I've raced on so far are just terrible- no sense of flow, or economical design, most tracks don't make sense and you're left wondering where you're supposed to be going. I don't remember Trackmania being like this before- it's really bad.

Yes, but then making tracks is half of Trackmania; generally only good tracks get voted for, or get used on servers (at least the ones worth playing on).

Quote from Bob Smith :

The difference with rFactor is, from what I've read (never actually played it), that each mod can change the physics too. In LFS (I suspect) that will never be the case, we will be 'limited' to car and track changes. And as discussed, there will have to be some kind of quality control to make it viable.

Scawen was asked about modding at the LFS '05 meet, by Tristan IIRC, and all he said was he'd watch and see how well it works for games like rFactor.

Not quite physics, you can't touch gravity or anything in core physics, you can change, grip and few other parameters in tires, car weights and other things that are used to build and define a car, but no, not real physics you can't touch.

I find that bit funny that still there are people posting this thread that think that LFS modding will end up like rFactor, even there has been quite good discussion about how such thing is very unlikely to happen, also there has been discussion about ways to make modding so that there are no such possibility.

Besides, I will start crying if it is not possible to make my own car into LFS

Hyperactive has highlighted most of the issues but the other to solve is track conversions.

Track conversions have to be stopped at ALL costs. A huge number of tracks in rF are crappy old conversions from F1C which are in turn conversions from another source. In the end EVRY game ends up with the same conversions of conversions of conversions.

This will put off the hobby modder but this is a GOOD thing. I have no problems paying a few $ for a track if it is original work of good quality.

People mention the FPS world to show how mods work BUT the FPS world is very different from the sim racing world. Most mods and mod teams are established and have grown and learnt through generations of game engines. The teams know about quality control, releases and machine compatibility etc. FPS games also pull a huge user base (Over 100000 concurrent players for HL&HL2) so for any new map/mod to have an impact on the community it has to be VERY GOOD, get noticed and spread by word of mouth. In the FPS world the only place to find crap maps/mods in on the servers run my the mod/maps maker for the week it takes them to realise they have made a huge pile of stinking ****.

This is how it would work out:

Someone makes a track for patch W. Then, patch X comes out! So, the addon section is cluttered with "help teh mod doesnt work"!!!111eleven11