...From the CRC. we are going to, over the next few months, be improving the CRC ten-fold, and it will all be based on ideas and opinions from the community. The CRC is a club for the community, and only they can tell us how to make it better.
so what could we do to improve?
what would you like to see happen?
if your not a member or applicant, what is stopping you from giving 2 mins of your time to sign up?
how could we improve this?

please, add all of your ideas, opinions and critisism's, but please, no slagging off the CRC. CONSTRUCTIVE CRITISISM ONLY PLEASE, as we cannot gain anything by being told we are crap, or that you can be bothered to sign up.

thank you
v4

kev, mate, i know you have, or have had problems with certain crc admins or members, and they may have problems with you. but i am personally doing this my way, i think. im gonna listen to all ideas, as long as they are constructive. so please, make a constructive critisism, or dont make one at all. thats all im asking.

thanks
v4

ps, if anyone would like, you can PM me your suggestions and ideas/critisms. i will then submit them by no-one, so if you have or have had problems with the CRC, or any representatives of the CRC, these will be over looked as there will be no name attached.

Well, IMO CRC got obsolete since the S2 alpha release, atleast for S2 users that is. It was fun during the demo and I think you should also concentrate on the current demo community. I mean, even those cheap stakes should get a chance to race cleanly and fair

The main thing CRC did in the demo days was providing a place to have clean races, with the addition that the racers followed a certain racing etiquette. Now in S2, the first and main point is already given and real wreckers don't have a chance anymore, so the base for a clean race is already there. Just the fairness seems to suffer a bit sometimes when racers don't know or don't follow the racing etiquette, but mostly it already works pretty well, alteast after the start/T1.

So, the CRC for S2 would "only" provide a place with a higher chance of T1 survival and maybe fairer overtaking sometimes, which is not enough (for me) to warrant the hassle and amount of work to run CRC.

I loved CRC in the demo days, but now I don't see any use for it anymore (for liscensed users).

[size]PS: Actually I completely lost track of how CRC works after S2 alpha was released, so I don't know if that ^ makes any sense *g*[/size]

Quote :

Anything else I would say would only be reiterating the criticisms I made shortly before being banned, so I'll leave it there

Ditto!!!!!!!!!

apart from th's comment, 'ditto', thats all usefull. i have heard alot of it before, but i am going to take everything on board this time, as i do want to improve the CRC. i realise that the whole concept of the stock cup is questionable, and i have been considering things for a few weeks now, but i have yet to decide anything.
we are trying to get into the demo server alot more, and to offer more to them, while ocntinueing with the current S2/S1 members.
one of the features that we are trying to get working, albeit slowly, is a racing and driving school, to allow less experianced drivers to develop their race craft with approved instructors, in safe environments. this will help bring the level of 'dangerous' drivers down, hopefully, and improve the level of racing found in the LFS community.

now, to kev and th.
i was not involved in, nore did i venture into any of the disagreements on the CRC forums, so i dont know what went on, but i want any and all constructive ideas, opinions and critisisms to be put forth, even if you have said it a million times.

please, continue.

v4

If the day will come when CRC will be useful at all, I think it should be enough to get into CRC once. The basic principle didn't change with the "new" CRC and neither did the persons who were previously accepted.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

I've never thought that this would work, and still don't. There's a world of difference between being told what to do in a "safe environment" and being able to do it in a full race. I think experience is the key, and so I think CRC should be giving people valuable race experience. Hence my criticism of the full-contact racing events they're always organising.

ok, i agree with the experiance bit, and it is something that we need to think about, and see what would be best, and in what light to show it.

Quote :

First up: Criticising anything on the CRC forums generally resulted in condescending responses from the admins suggesting the complainant was too thick to understand why things were done the way they were done, or the classic "If you don't like it..." blinkers-on approach, and a blacklisting for whoever was doing the complaining, as evidenced by the constant references to every criticism I'd ever made during my final argument with the admins and references by several of them to me showing my "true colours" - like I was some sort of wolf in sheep's clothing. These threads would then deteriorate due to poor handling by the admin team to the point where they would eventually be closed and deleted, with the issue never actually getting resolved, in order to save face.

i personally listen to all the suggestions, but when it gets into arguments, i dont listen, as this is not the best way to do anything. i agree that personal feelings have, in the past, gotten in the way of settling disagreements, but in the future, i will personally make sure that this is not done.

Quote :

Second: There isn't enough of a distinction between the ATC team and the CRC, made worse by the fact that most CRC admins are members of ATC, and vice versa. This results in a closing of ranks by fiercely-loyal ATC members whenever CRC is criticised, because they take it as one of their own being "attacked". This does not make for a situation conducive to resolving problems.

yes, the majority of the admins are atc members, but the majority also divide the 2 brands. i personally wear the atc badge and the crc badge seperatly, and neither describes me. i agree with what the crc is doing, and i find the atc guys friendly, but as a rule, i race for my self, unless in a specific team event. standing up for your team is important, and can sometimes be seen as something else, but these are the issues that we are trying to address.atc and crc are 2 seperate orginisations, and they should be viewed that way.

Quote :

Third: The applications process doesn't work. I signed up for it myself eventually, and lapped with CRC admins and members on numerous occasions over several weeks but was apparently deemed an unclean driver as I never became a member. I know I'm safe, have never wrecked, make no more silly mistakes than anybody else does, so I can only assume that either the applications procedure is broken or there is some unspoken rule that I personally was not to be accepted. I am certainly less accident-prone than Stoney, who is supposed to be running the show, so it can't have been anything to do with my driving.

the applications system does work, but only as much as the members are willing too. we encourage the members to vote, and try to keep that up, but if they choose not too, then we cannot demand that they do. something i have found, is that it is a 'right place at the right time' case with alot of people. we will continue to encourage active voting, but this cannot garentee(sp) people becoming members, as only the current members can do that.

Quote :

Fourth: The CRC appears obsessed with bureauocracy. There are pages and pages of rules, regulations and written procedures dotted around in various locations of the website, all of which each individual is expected to have found and studied. There are also unwritten rules and procedures which are only quoted when they become necessary to shut someone up (like the official procedure for making a suggestion, for example).

every racing orginisation has a large, detailed set of rules, and we at the crc are no different. as far as the unwritten rules, im not sure i understand, but i will look into making sure all rules are put into one place, and that they all are outlined, with no 'unwritten' rules being called into play.

Quote :

Fifth: The CRC is terribly inefficiently run. There are how many staff, a dozen? More? And they're still asking for more people to help run it. Given that there are less than fifty people who could be called "regulars" there, and many of them are on the admin team, why are so many man-hours required to keep the place up and running? This results in animosity towards any suggestion that changes are required, because apparently a dozen people are voluntarily working their arses off achieving very little and the thought that they might be wasting all that effort doesn't make them happy bunnies.

firstly, there are only 6 staff members. accordingly to other sources, in previously run version of the crc, there were 20 admins. with the number of regulars, we cannot regulate who visits the sight, we can only encourage them. i personally dont see the point in signing up, and then not posting, or visiting the sight ever again.
about the work load, we do work, and alot of it is behind the scenes. maintaining the site, pruning through the irrelevant posts in sections and keeping other aspects, such as events, up to date. the suggestions towards the changes required...well thats what this is for, so i can take a hand on what people in the community that we are trying to work for wants.

Quote :

Sixth: The XFR. Nearly all of the racing on CRC servers is done in the XFR. Quite how touring around in one of the easiest cars to control is going to prepare anyone for driving anything other than the XFR safely I've no idea. The CRC should be offering people a range of different experiences if the intention is to help people race cleanly.

i agree. i have become kind of sick of the xfr, and will make sure that different settings are availible to other racing pedigrees.


dont worry about the language, i can take it, im a big boy, lol.

thank your for your honesty, as suger coating never helps people and companies develop.
i hope i have answered your questions or gave suitible comments kevin. if not, please address then one at a time, as i get bored writing long posts.

thanks
v4

If wreckers become an issue in S2 when I will probably consider joining CRC, but as the ban commands are so beautifully implemented I don't see a problem as it is...

I also tend to agree with a lot of thisnameistaken's comments. During S2 Demo it was absolutely 100% necessary to get CRC up and running ASAP, and a great was job doing this. Unfortunately, S2 Alpha was released not long afterwards, making it suddenly pointless.

I don't want to get drawn into the 'politics' of the running, or systems in place, as it's not something I am particularly interested in. One question: The CRC always seems to be needing help. What with? People joining? Running the servers? As far as I can tell, one or two people need to be in charge of monitoring votes, and the rest should run itself. All the people in CRC are, by definition 'clean racers' (whatever that really means), so they don't need admining...

Personally, I'd say scrap CRC for registered peeps, and solely run it for the demo users, who are far more likely to suffer wrecking problems. The hassle isn't worth the gain for people who have paid money for a fixed username...

Besides, it's just another password, or set of passwords, to remember. There are plenty of 100% clean, well admined servers available in S2 where you don't need to be a member of an organisation to race/practice/mess about in.

With regard to the 'Stock Car' club/league thingy, I also can't see how that can work with even the slightest mention of CRC. If they were two, 100% seperate entities, then yes the stock car thing sounds fun. But how can you nudge people if you get banned from the system that runs CRC at the same time :S

I kinda liked the idea of the "stock cup" i thought it was a good way to loosen people up and enjoy some friendly "bumping"! I think the main propblem with the CRC is the attitude of certain admins. They just dont seem to take suggestions/critism well. It seems that they take suggestions as personal attacks on the work they have done. I think the CRC is made up of mostly good people with the best of intentions, but the ones that make it bad, make it real bad! The CRC, as a whole, are trying to do some good things to make peoples racing experience a little better, ive always thought it was needed and still do, just not by me! I think if people just take a more open-minded approach to peoples comments and suggestions and dont turn it into the crc community vs whoever made a comment, it will make for a much more pleasent place to visit!


Good luck, v4, in all u do!!

hi guys!!!

hows things.
v4 could you explain something to me. i am interested in the stock cup and was on this forum sp i thought to post it here.
in the stock cup, bumping is alloud but is it like touring cars bumping or distruction derby bumpimg. cuz imo if it was touring cars bumping then it wouldn't really be incouraging wrecking but incouraging bumper to bumper racing and we all know that if you are only inches away from the car infront, then of course there is gonna be bumping.
we all get hit alot in T1 so i think we all already know what it is like to feel a "destruction derby" bump.


did a few laps in the rb4 last night, ohh she handles like a dream, even when you loose it it still comes back.

and getting on the xfr thing i don't think it is as bad a car as you guys are saying. but variety(sp?) is the spice of life. i like to test other cars/tracks offline and then i go looking for a server that has that car or track.

"it's quite breathe taking, you should try it some time" Dr Evil

touring cars. if you or anyone else reads the introduction page for the stock cup, it says i got the idea after watching the brands round of BTCC

Quote from v4forlife :

if your not a member or applicant, what is stopping you from giving 2 mins of your time to sign up?

After ATC took over CRC and removed all former members (apart from ATC members that is), I've been told they wanted a "small active group of people" rather than lots of people which were in CRC at that time.

In my opinion CRC was not established for personal purposes of ATC team. It's suppose to be a club for clean racers. The original members were just that - clean racers. I don't really have any intention searching for ATC members online and proving them I can race clean, just because they took over CRC. Definitely not after I've seen them driving on various occasions. Honestly their involvement in CRC is a joke (in my opinion).

This is my first and last post here in this thread.


This thread was started by a CRC Admin for the purpose of hearing your thoughts and opinions, and suggestions on the CRC and the future of the organistation. Some points to clear up.

Quote :

After ATC took over CRC and removed all former members (apart from ATC members that is), I've been told they wanted a "small active group of people" rather than lots of people which were in CRC at that time.

In my opinion CRC was not established for personal purposes of ATC team. It's suppose to be a club for clean racers. The original members were just that - clean racers. I don't really have any intention searching for ATC members online and proving them I can race clean, just because they took over CRC. Definitely not after I've seen them driving on various occasions. Honestly their involvement in CRC is a joke (in my opinion).

The above posted by Rumkio..

The CRC was never taken over by the ATC team, infact the ATC team has nothing to do with the CRC. The CRC is an independent organistation and runs independently from the ATC team.

We want to hear your opinions and suggestions, but please, the CRC is not the ATC and never will be anything to do with the team.

The ATC team is a Team within LFS. The CRC is an organistation.

Quote :

The ATC team is a Team within LFS. The CRC is an organistation.

I know nothing of ATC, nor the CRC (I have serious problems with how "organisations" are setup in communities that end up only working as a way to support power hungry idiots as I've seen time and time again on the internet so I steer clear of them), but judging from the previous posts it seems there's something not quite right with the way the CRC is run.

You say the ATC team is just a team, and the CRC is an organisation. Reading the other posts it seems that the CRC is an organisation that is run by mostly ATC members, and that is never going to work.

My opinion on how an organisation like the CRC should be run is very simple... Make sure nobody would think about 'taking over' or being an ass. The only way you can accomplish this is by democratic voting for all top positions. I'm not judging anybody, but it seems that if the CRC is 100% created for the community and not for personal benefit of the boardmembers this shouldn't be too much to ask. Yes, 1 person can be the CRC owner, sure... But his power should be limited to making sure the essence of the CRC isn't corrupted by the board, instead of making decisions himself.

It seems to me that the problems as I can make them out from this thread are dead simple... A good organisation works like a democratic country. Why? Simply to make sure there's no wrongful concentration of power with any one group of people.
1. parliament - they make rules, and set up the different protocols for managing the organisation. They cannot enforce rules or punish people, but decide only on what rules there should be.
2. executive forces - they enforce the rules and decide on how to implement the set rules, they cannot punish people, but can bring them on to the 3rd power.
3. justicial department - they test the rules, and the enforcement of the rules, and have the power to pass judgement on rules and people... In short, they have the power to punish people, and the power to remove rules, or send them back to parliament for adjustment (they cannot change the rules themselves, only accept or deny them).

All of these are independent entities, and should be elected in a fair and democratic way.

My $0.02... Use it if you want.

The CRC is about more than just clean racing, it has had to grow and be more than it used to be as there is a real punishment for crashing and wrecking now with S2. It’s about building a community, starting more and more racing series for people, providing help and guidance for people.

I’m truly sorry that people felt like they were left no option but to leave and stand up for something that they felt is important and that wasn’t being handled correctly. The people on both sides of this have not dealt with it in the best way and I don’t want to get into an argument again over what happened.

I didn’t want anyone to leave and I still don’t but lessons have been learned and it will improve things, I only wish it didn’t have to happen like it has.

The CRC is my home and it has made S2 much more enjoyable than any other games I have played. It’s made me feel part of a community and given me new friends and racing, then beating friends and then gloating over how much you beat them is much more enjoyable than beating a stranger.

I hope you have a place that makes you feel like that and to me that’s what the CRC is about.

gAg|CRC and CRC admin.

Maybe it's just a coincidence that ATC members were given a tag they obviously don't deserve, similar admins, similar websites, CRC Co-Director promoting ATC as a good team, etc, etc.

We've been here once, I won't bring up this issue again (just answered your question in 1st post).

I agree with garph though. There were more things that gone wrong I guess. No point arguing about it now.

I joined CRC back in S1 days but never really saw active servers for it. Then CRC was taken over and all members were deleted. I tried to sign up but the system did not work and so I ignored CRC.

I agree its prob more use on demo only servers.

I would prefer to see a server option that means you have passed the tests for a given car as it means you had to pass the test where you overtake the AI without contact. Enough to give new drivers an idea why they have been shouted at/kicked/banned if they drive like an idiot on S2 full servers

Quote :

I didn’t want anyone to leave and I still don’t but lessons have been learned and it will improve things, I only wish it didn’t have to happen like it has

My last post on the forums there consisted of something close to that! If changes are made, then it is all worth it! I too wish it wouldnt have happened in this way, but honestly i saw no other choice! My problem was much more about a personal issure with a certain member of the CRC rather than the CRC as a whole! Its a great community with great people involved in it, the leaders just has alot to learn about leadership!!!!!

I think if people give it a chance, most of them will be pleased with there decision!

And theres my........... $0.50

i think you should read the thread title and reconsider your last post. this is starting to look like the other thread on crc.

f.y.i.

i understand where you guys are comming from about the amount of crc admins being atc but if you think of it like this maybe you might understand the possible reason for this.
here goes, stoney is a part of the ATC team and also he is the head of crc (i think, don't really care who runs it, i am there for the racing). so as he would race mostly us and would ask his team mates for help when needed. me myself have mothing much to do with the running of crc but it is one of the main servers that i would join and i visit the site every day to keep up to date with events and races. they have a race in there banger racing. now atc are doing it and as a great way to have a bit of fun and not worry about hitting the other guy. now imo crc only promote this race because as i have said it is good fun (same for cops and robbers not my game but hey).

my point bieng this, as crc grows their will be more admins and they probs won't be atc (hehehe).
and events/races that crc promote that aren't really clean might not have much to do with the driving and maybe it might be something about fun and building a stronger community.

that basically my bit. i loose no sleep from what happens online.

thisnameistaken, please try not to make this another mud slinging session, although that is an idea but not me or you or any one here, what about 2 hot chicks and some mud?

i hear KFC do something like that


p.s. i am not a crc admin. i know it is hard to believe that you have actually met an atc member that is not a crc admin but i didn't believe this bickering is still going on but there we go.

Wow, that was something...

I'm having a hard time figuring out how to actually race with CRC members and get membership. I've done all the paper work as an applicant, a process which I considered far too convoluted. But now don't feel comfortable asking anyone I see at a public server to watch. For all I know, the CRC|M that just joined the race is taking the first and last ten minutes of his/her spare time for the week to enjoy a little LFS. The CRC server is of no help to me as a) there is never anyone on it when I look in, and b) FWD. That being said, I haven't really tried that hard.

Also, it would be nice to see the CRC organize league against league races. It would mean everyone in the league becoming CRC, so the applicant process would have to be more efficient. But in the end, leagues racing leagues in a "trusted" environment could be very cool.

so, the basic jists are:
1. there is not a definate enough divide between ATC members, and CRC admins.
2. with the above in mind, the ATC is not looked upon as being a 'good' team(take good for whatever you decide it may or may not mean)
3. as there is a username ban, there is no need for the CRC in S2
4. the application process doesnt work as people are not voting for the applicants
5. more variety:the only visable car used are fwd cars.
6. the above point wouldnt be as much of a problem if the servers were used sometimes
7. personal differences with certain member or admins(can/cannot be resolved)
8. original members shouldnt have been deleted(nothing can be done now, sorry)
9. the CRC seems to be involved with too many leagues, events or server choices that do not promot the clean racing that the name suggests.
10. democratic leadership, what we says go and if you disagree, your banned/muted

ive jotted down what i could remember from the above posts, but i have prob missed something. if i have, please, tell me, so i can put it in here, and have all the points in one place.

thanks
vfour

Quote from v4forlife :

...From the CRC.

I'd love a big-mac and fries please!

wow, that helps me so much. thankyou

Quote from thisnameistaken :

Look, your buddy v4 is here doing good work, he's got our attention, he's gathering opinions and listening to people's complaints, and he seems genuinely interested in improving matters. If you had any sense you'd leave him to it, because he's much better at it than you are.

you then went on to post this : " It turns into a mugging every time, as you're well aware because you've seen it in action several times already. Have you ever seen a single suggestion or constructive criticism upheld and actioned at the CRC? I haven't."
imo it seems that you are telling crc to stop with the mugging but yet you insist on doing some yourself.
as i said b4. try to keep it civilised.
if i had my way i think we would be sitting disscussing this over an ice cold beer and have few smokes. but i tried to send a beer to someone b4 and it killed my kb

Quote :

I'd love a big-mac and fries please!

two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, pickels, ahhhh screw it, gimmie a McRib !!!!!!!

Quote :

imo it seems that you are telling crc to stop with the mugging but yet you insist on doing some yourself.

well this is a thread on how to improve the crc, and mugging people who make a comment or suggestion is, imo, one of the crc's biggest faults!! if u do, u risk getting banned for expressing your opionion!!(which is ok by me!)
random ip's are a beautiful thing!!

Quote :

Have you ever seen a single suggestion or constructive criticism upheld and actioned at the CRC? I haven't."

i havent either!!!

Last post here!! i like this forum, and would hate to get banned!!! :P