I don't think that any game has ever had proper automatic transmission, it is not only those letters that is needed, also you need to simulate operation of automatic transmission, need some formulas to have clutch slip and how it will lock, also gear changes and kick down must be made.
I would like to auto gears to be that way instead of robotic arm that changes gears.
Perhaps not going to happen as there are people who believe that this great sim should be only racing sim and in racing they don't use auto gears etc etc.
Would not harm to have it done properly as there still is option to use auto gears, maybe some day in future that will happen, when engine model is worked upon more
That's one thing that's bothered me about auto transmission in game since, ever.
(not the lack of PNDR12) but kickdown. Before lfs, i played GTR alot and used auto, yet when low in a gear, if you wanted the lower gear you had to physicaly brake to get it, losing time. But, then again, in racing games no-ones cruising around and then suddenly floors it, its alwasy floored.
Yeah, in LFS having an auto should enable you to choose the convertor stall speed, and be limited to less gears in total ... perhaps that would make it unfair on the manuals though, 'cause if you fit a 5K convertor most any car would fly off the line (players with clutch pedals notwithstanding ).
Hard Drivin' and Race Drivin' back in the days used to have proper automatics. That's the only sim I've ever seen have them incorporated.
Since we are sometime getting false starting, that should make drag racing more popular, and many drag cars have autos.
Assuming all the losses will be modelled, it could be available on almost all the cars anyway since IRL if you REALLY wanted to, you COULD install one in a GTR car for example (although noone would, it could be done).
"Auto Shifting" in LFS should be done by a true auto-trans, or not at all IMO.
Stall speed on the converter would be fine - let's see you use the car effectively around a circuit with a super high stall speed
Besides, everything else is even more wrong compared to a proper auto anyways, so why not fix it? I'm not saying it's priority #1 obviously, but at some point....
I would also like to see/use realistic automatic transmissions. I think this is something many car-based games are missing. Actually, San Francisco Rush Extreme Racing (made in 1996 according to the title screen) simulates auto gears. If I'm right, it was originally an arcade game (had H-shifters and everything when I played it). The N64 version was my number 1 game back then for cruising around, because there's these AI buses on track 6 that cruise around on the roads. Not only that, but the ones in the left lane went faster (around here, left lane is usually the faster lane)! I'm not sure if those buses are on the arcade version, because that could get costly by the time I reach that track, if it's even in there.
From some experimenting I've done, LFS actually does simulate some sort of kickdown (that's the right term, right? when you floor it and the gear changes to the one before); but the biggest problem, I think, is that the gears aren't shifting up to the next gear when you're off the throttle (kickup, maybe?). When I ride in real cars with auto gears, the RPM usually doesn't go above 2.5k during normal acceleration. In LFS, the gear will not change if you're, for example, anywhere between 4k RPM and just below the auto's shift area, regardless what you're doing to the throttle. I have definitely got it to kick into the previous gear at about 3.5k by flooring it, when usually it waits until about 2.8k when off the throttle.
I think it's possible to code this using information from outguage (or was it insim?). For example, in a macro language called Autohotkey, if it was able to communicate with LFS, I think could be something simple like:
loop { if throttle > 40% { if rpm < 5k { previousgear() } } sleep,100 ;to prevent loop lag }
It basically says "if you're both 40% or over on the throttle, and the RPM is under 5k, go to the previous* gear." (I might've actually reversed the < and > signs; I'm never really sure which is which until I try it both ways.) Of course that won't actually work, because you'd need to have the right variables and define the nextgear() function; but it's just an example of how simple it might be to do it! Theoretically, You could also do it in Autohotkey WITHOUT communicating directly to LFS, by color detection at certain coordinates (RPM needle goes below certain position) and throttle axis detection, but that wouldn't work for everybody, because we don't all use the same view. There's ways to make that stuff user-definable, though.
Yeah, I was pretty surprised when I first drove that car, how different it shifted. I bought the car in career mode just for that reason.
Edit: *didn't realize up there, I put next instead of previous gear. Edit 2: I'm taking a shot at the color detection in Autohotkey right now, but I'll have you know it's not practical one bit. It's watching for the RPM needle to hit a certain point, and it'll shift according to your throttle percentage. I managed to get it working, but it has no gear detection, only RPM detection. This means if you're revving in neutral, it might send you flying in reverse. Might post a video up on youtube so you guys can see it in action.
An auto tranny is far more complex than you think. You have to model the power takeup through the slush box how it eats the power, the delays in response, changing gear when you don't want it to, the down change on kickdown only to change back again with a jolt 2 seconds later.
Auto gearboxes are not good for the track. If the time was taken to do them right it would be a waste. People would drive it once and say "yep, autos are crap" and switch back to manual.
Well, shows what I know from only observing and not actually driving. Some really do like auto more than manual, though. In games, I've always preferred manual since auto was usually both unrealistic, and slower. Not sure which I'd like more if there was a realistic auto. What you're about to read below certainly doesn't help the debate, either.
I completed a workable, yet not ideal, compromise, but I'll probably never use it again. Done purely by color detection and joystick axis detection. Similar things like H-shifting mouses/mice can be done in a similar way, but again, not really enjoyable.
if autohotkey can accept network packets, why not use outguage to be more accurate?
its a cool project, even if i wouldnt use it personally. If i ever get to build the LFS coin-op machine i want to (just to see what people think of it in public) i might use something like this to simulate a "manu-matic" transmition, like the one on a pontiac G-6, which if you dotn shift, will shift for you (the automatic has a "manual mode" which just lets you play with the gears a little, but gives you no more performance or control really)
Autohotkey doesn't deal with network packets as far as I know; or are you saying it does? I know it's able to control OTHER programs that have access to the network, but it'd be news to me if it was actually able to itself.
In it's current state, I don't think that little thing I made would want you to shift at all--it'd just shift back down or up by itself. A way to override that would be to map a pause script button on the controller/wheel. In the video, you could see that little GUI was movable, so you could put it somewhere not important on the car (passenger-side dashboard maybe), and have it act as an overlay of its current on/off status, etc. It'd also be a pain to get the coordinates for each car, but that could also be scripted to be easier.
Hmm, now that I think of it, I suppose I could add basic gear detection (reverse, neutral, drive) to stop it from activating while you're in neutral or reverse. Something like "-1 = reverse; 0 = neutral; 1 = drive," and you just make it add or subtract to the variable when you press the gear buttons. I don't think it's really worth working too much more on this, though. Like you said, outguage would be more accurate, and you wouldn't have to worry about color detection, coordinates, and all these cheap workarounds. You could add all the formulas you need to determine when it needs to shift, and then it'd probably be enjoyable.
Sounds like you really don't like Autos ... I've had a few, did grasstracking with one and it was cracking (Renault 5 Turbo I); not had any issues with slow response, kickdown working then changing back again, or unhealthy power consumption. If those are the problems you've had with a car you owned then the box probably beeded a rebuild or adjusting properly :rolleyes: Of course BMC autos were crap, so if it was an Auto Mini thats understandable!
It's not like you can't keep auto's from shifting up when you don't want them to. Most newer autos, especially in sportier cars, also have "autostick" mode where you simply tap the lever left/right to shift, although it's pretty much the same as changing a regular shifter position (D/3/2/1) save for the fact that you can upshift early for whatever reason (starting in 2nd on snow is useful). So it's not like you lose a lot of control over which gear you're in, but rather the control over the connection of the engine to the drivetrain is the biggest difference in terms of control.
The only "modelling" that would take any research is the torque converter's behaviour since the rest is just a fairly basic logic circuit.
Torque convertor wouldn't be hard to model unless you factored in overheating. Old autos can be fitted with a manual shift body too, so you shift up and down similar to a sequential but its a very different driving experience
Its just there are some real issues with Auto gearboxes that just do not mix with racing. People had mentioned that you can get psudo gears and the like with modern auto's etc but in the end you still have far too little control due to the decoupled connection between the engine and the wheels because of the torque convertor (box of slush). It is not and will never be as direct as gears and a clutch.
Every auto I have driven has had the same issues, they take away some of the control you have over weight distribution with your right foot. With a manual the instant you put your foot down the car reacts, with an auto it is just not the same as the Tourque Convertor and gear logic adds lag and uncertanty.
Here is what an Auto does to the BMW Mini Cooper, great hot hatch and very responsive to user input.
0-60mph: 9.1 (Manual) and 10.4 (Auto)
Top speed: 126mph (Manual) and 115mph (Auto)
The auto also does between 10-20% less distance on the same fill depending on the type of driving. When doing more "spirited" driving that figure gets even worse. Every car you look at is the same from family shopper up to high end 911's. In every case the Auto version of the same car is slower, less responsive and uses more fuel.
..............
After writing the above I have changed my mind. I think we should have autos on cars that would allow it and the current "gear help" for manual to be removed on all cars.
It's not like people are forced to use H-pattern and clutch and you can use gear up/down and auto clutch so its is not an issue. Time to let people realise how bad Autos are...
I had an Auto trannie with a B&M shift Kit... It was kinda like an automatic overdrive.
I doubt most a y'all that can't stand auto transmissions have ever REALLY experienced rush hour gridlock before. lol
Also, as a teenager, I leared to drive a car with a Manual trans. It was in a Big truck though.
Also I learned that that damn gear shift got in the way of things with me & my girlfriend.....
BTW what cars use autos in drag racing? Every car I've seen used a 3 or a 4 speed gear box. But those were street, pro street and super stocks.
I never really got to see a modern top fuel Dragster or Funnycar - them?
When I first started LFS, it being the 1st racing sim that I ever played & using the mouse, I started with an auto. I had more important things to do (like not wrecking!) than to be fooling with gears.
That being said, I really don't know why a person would "normally" want to race with an auto trans.
1. it's a heavier transmission, 2. the car burns more fuel and 3. when it's on overdrive for a long time, It'll break down. LOL my big bad B&M eventually
cost me about $400 (?) on a rebuild.
I would like to see a Shifter made that had force feedback to simulate
the "can't find em-grind em" effect. That would be cool.
).