General principles for good setups
(17 posts, started )
General principles for good setups
I keep seeing sets that I download from inferno and that other people give me that have weird settings, so I thought I'd make a list of often overlooked things that good sets should have, in my opinion. I'm not a famous setup maker, but I get rave reviews from my sets that I give people. I'm also a PhD astrophysicist, so I have some physics knowledge.

1. Ride heights should be high enough to not bottom out on the straights. Cars with downforce will be pushed down on the fast sections and will actually bottom out before you hear the scraping sound. The only way to know your bottoming out is to notice a top speed decrease. Set your ride height high then lower it until you start to lose speed on the straights, then raise it back up to just above that.

2. Ride heights should usually be lower in the front than in the back. For now, using a lower ride height on the heavier end is a good way to get grip, but when LFS starts including ground-effect aero, we will need the front lower than the rear to get that downforce. So make your sets realistic now, and the physics patch that fixes that will reward you.

2. Front toe-out is highly overrated. Toe out in fast sweeping corners will scrub off speed, and since LFS has a parallel steer setting, always use that not quite realistic, but very effective). Use 100% parallel steer unless you are understeery in tight corners, in which case you decrease it until you have a good balance. In general, parallel wheels are a good compromise between fast corners and slow corners. Also front toe-out heats the inner tire edges and prevents you from running higher camber, which can hurt front grip.

3. Choose soft tires and high pressures over hard tires and low pressures. At most tracks, the softest slicks will last an entire fuel stint as long as they have high pressures. Once the tires start to wear they will cool down so don't worry about a bit of overheating. If you have massive overheating, like red everywhere, then switch to a harder compound. Brown patches in the F9 display are OK, but more than a few laps of red is bad.

4. The distance between gear ratios should decrease as you go to higher gears. For example, so if you set 6th and 5th to be 1.00 and 1.05, respectively, then 4th-1st should be 1.15, 1.35, 1.75, 2.55, respectively. Notice that the gears go up by 0.05, 0.1, 0.2, 0.4, and 0.8. The difference is being doubled each time. In a perfect world, you'd set the ratios with a computer and an engine dyno graph, but this gets you close. You can then tweak the ratios to avoid upshifting 20 ft before your braking zone and such.

5. Maximum downforce is usually not the fastest. Since most LFS tracks have long straights, you lose a lot of time in a high drag, high downforce configuration. Plus, more downforce causes more tire wear and heating and can sometimes keep you from running softer tires.

6. Spring rates should be roughly proportional to the percentage of weight on each wheel. If you want neutral handling over bumps and curbs, your suspension frequency needs to be similar on the front and back. This usually means that the end with more weight needs stiffer springs, since the frequency is proportional to the square root of the spring rate divided by the mass on the wheel. This is modified a bit by the suspension geometry and the lever arm effect, but for most cars this works fine. So a GTR car with a 40/60 front/rear distribution should start with 120 kN/m springs on the rear and 80 kN/m springs on the front as a baseline. Then tweak to remedy handling problems.

7. Front and rear downforce should have similar levels, with slightly more on the rear. If you car is neutrally balanced at low speeds, then you should keep it that way at high speeds. This means having the downforce on each end stay equal. I often see too much rear wing, which makes cars massively understeery at high speeds. Also equal downforce levels keep the ride height where you want it. At little excess rear downforce is good for stability, since cars are inherently unstable at high speeds, but don't overdo it. For most cars, the rear wing slider should never be equal to or further right than the front wing slider.

Let the discussion begin ...
Quote from petrichor :Let the discussion begin ...

All I can "discuss" is that what you put down in text is nice, but the inferno sets are the world record sets and I think the lap times speak for themselves .

Not everything that works out on paper perfectly will transfer over into the real world, or the virtual world in our case here.
I think I agree with most of it except the ride height business. High ride height is great for dealing with bumps and curbs and doesn't compromise overall handling very substantially.
How do you know that the setups listed are the actual setups used? Just curious.

I suspect that the weird settings on some inferno sets are compensating for quirks in the driver's style. In any case, I'm not here to question WR sets, since they obviously found out how to make the sim cars fast, but to give beginners and the doomed and lost a baseline for setups, so that they can narrow down possible settings are start making progress. Looking at WR sets to learn how to setup a race car is like looking at Picasso to learn how to draw a stick figure.
I'll jump in for discussion!

-Sometimes when you are using soft springs in the front you have to have a higher ride height setting in or to get the front and rear level or at a reasonable pitch. So, you could have a higher front ride height when really, its lower than the rear. (which I don't think is right, ride height is ride height....spring stiffness shouldn't effect it more than a very small amount)


-Higher ride height front or rear also reduces tire wear by letting the roll forces put more force on body roll and springs/shocks/ARBs than the tires themselves.

-Higher ride height can also add grip because of a raised CoG it transfers more weight, but at the same time it can reduce grip in faster corners. This is because the inside wheels play a more important role in fast corners as they have more weight on them because the corner radius is larger and because of the downforce at higher speeds.


Don't take these for facts, but I've noticed these things from 5-6 years karting and 4-5 years playing LFS,GPL etc etc etc.
Quote from petrichor :I keep seeing sets that I download from inferno and that other people give me that have weird settings, so I thought I'd make a list of often overlooked things that good sets should have, in my opinion. I'm not a famous setup maker, but I get rave reviews from my sets that I give people. I'm also a PhD astrophysicist, so I have some physics knowledge.

1. Ride heights should be high enough to not bottom out on the straights. Cars with downforce will be pushed down on the fast sections and will actually bottom out before you hear the scraping sound. The only way to know your bottoming out is to notice a top speed decrease. Set your ride height high then lower it until you start to lose speed on the straights, then raise it back up to just above that.

2. Ride heights should usually be lower in the front than in the back. For now, using a lower ride height on the heavier end is a good way to get grip, but when LFS starts including ground-effect aero, we will need the front lower than the rear to get that downforce. So make your sets realistic now, and the physics patch that fixes that will reward you.

2. Front toe-out is highly overrated. Toe out in fast sweeping corners will scrub off speed, and since LFS has a parallel steer setting, always use that not quite realistic, but very effective). Use 100% parallel steer unless you are understeery in tight corners, in which case you decrease it until you have a good balance. In general, parallel wheels are a good compromise between fast corners and slow corners. Also front toe-out heats the inner tire edges and prevents you from running higher camber, which can hurt front grip.

3. Choose soft tires and high pressures over hard tires and low pressures. At most tracks, the softest slicks will last an entire fuel stint as long as they have high pressures. Once the tires start to wear they will cool down so don't worry about a bit of overheating. If you have massive overheating, like red everywhere, then switch to a harder compound. Brown patches in the F9 display are OK, but more than a few laps of red is bad.

4. The distance between gear ratios should decrease as you go to higher gears. For example, so if you set 6th and 5th to be 1.00 and 1.05, respectively, then 4th-1st should be 1.15, 1.35, 1.75, 2.55, respectively. Notice that the gears go up by 0.05, 0.1, 0.2, 0.4, and 0.8. The difference is being doubled each time. In a perfect world, you'd set the ratios with a computer and an engine dyno graph, but this gets you close. You can then tweak the ratios to avoid upshifting 20 ft before your braking zone and such.

5. Maximum downforce is usually not the fastest. Since most LFS tracks have long straights, you lose a lot of time in a high drag, high downforce configuration. Plus, more downforce causes more tire wear and heating and can sometimes keep you from running softer tires.

6. Spring rates should be roughly proportional to the percentage of weight on each wheel. If you want neutral handling over bumps and curbs, your suspension frequency needs to be similar on the front and back. This usually means that the end with more weight needs stiffer springs, since the frequency is proportional to the square root of the spring rate divided by the mass on the wheel. This is modified a bit by the suspension geometry and the lever arm effect, but for most cars this works fine. So a GTR car with a 40/60 front/rear distribution should start with 120 kN/m springs on the rear and 80 kN/m springs on the front as a baseline. Then tweak to remedy handling problems.

7. Front and rear downforce should have similar levels, with slightly more on the rear. If you car is neutrally balanced at low speeds, then you should keep it that way at high speeds. This means having the downforce on each end stay equal. I often see too much rear wing, which makes cars massively understeery at high speeds. Also equal downforce levels keep the ride height where you want it. At little excess rear downforce is good for stability, since cars are inherently unstable at high speeds, but don't overdo it. For most cars, the rear wing slider should never be equal to or further right than the front wing slider.

Let the discussion begin ...

I agree with all your points. But sometimes certain tracks require certain strange settings. For example, if you use a lot of kerb you're gonna need lots of ARB to stop the car jumping up in the air when you take the kerb. This has all sorts of effects on the other suspension settings and if you are using ARBs to balance the car over kerbs, then you need to use the dampers and springs in a slightly different way to usual.

At the end of the day being good at making setups is all about practice and time. If you haven't spent time making setups you won't know what the changes you make feel like behind the wheel. So there are no shortcuts to successfull setups. I can drive a circuit in a car and tell immediately if I need different spring rates, damper values and ARB settings. I often think, not enough lift off oversteer - reduce front bump damping and rear rebound. Or I think, I can't control this rear wheel drive out of the corners, I need one more click of front ARB. Or I might find, I'm understeering over small bumps - I need less front rebound.

One thing that most people overlook is the importance of brakes. I can be fairly quick in a car with bad suspension settings but a car with bad brakes is impossible to drive fast.
#7 - nihil
Seem to be useful starting points, Petrichor. Cheers.

Quote from Gentlefoot :
One thing that most people overlook is the importance of brakes. I can be fairly quick in a car with bad suspension settings but a car with bad brakes is impossible to drive fast.

I think it was Mario Andretti who said that there are even F1 drivers who still believe that the brakes are for slowing you down....
Quote from Gentlefoot :
One thing that most people overlook is the importance of brakes. I can be fairly quick in a car with bad suspension settings but a car with bad brakes is impossible to drive fast.

What do you mean by that? Could you give an example of good and bad brakes?
Quote from mikey_G :What do you mean by that? Could you give an example of good and bad brakes?

Sure - too much front brake bias and you cannot get the nose to the apex and you may even have dramatic understeer at corner entry. Too little front brake bias and the back will snap out violently as you brake for the corner entry.

To be fast you need just enough rear brake bias so you can get the back light and moving slightly at corner entry without having it step out so much that you need to put in a jab of opposite lock, which costs you time and changes your position and attitude of the car on the circuit slightly reducing the amount of space you have for the exit stage of the corner.
#10 - JTbo
I think WR setups utilize some bugs or some incomplete things in game engine, I don't know what to think about it, but I'm using too low pressures too to get more grip.

I set springs and dampers by paper, then fine tune if needed, usually not much is needed and when racing I have found out that this way I can make most balanced car and balance is everything, 5 lap races are something where you won't see me so naturally my sets are designed such thing in mind

Set which give you fastest time is not very likely giving you victories.

What setups I have tested they seem to be over stiff, without dampers and way too low, specially from inferno I haven't found single good setup (maybe because what I drive) most of them are weird and not suitable at all for long close racing, maybe works for some and good for them, maybe also gives best performance with this sim, but try to make such su IRL and still manage to do one lap.

I guess I'm sacrificing some of speed over to realism, but that gives me control and stable lap times.
Quote from Gentlefoot :Sure - too much front brake bias and you cannot get the nose to the apex and you may even have dramatic understeer at corner entry. Too little front brake bias and the back will snap out violently as you brake for the corner entry.

To be fast you need just enough rear brake bias so you can get the back light and moving slightly at corner entry without having it step out so much that you need to put in a jab of opposite lock, which costs you time and changes your position and attitude of the car on the circuit slightly reducing the amount of space you have for the exit stage of the corner.

thanks for the explanation

and wr sets do exploit bugs like locked diff and ultra stiff front ARB. I always try to search for sets who don't have those exploits so I know for sure the set is predictable and fast.
Whas is the front ARB bug? That would explain why I see a lot of sets with ARB rates that are 3x as high as the front spring rates.

Yes, ride height does need to be adjusted to handle curbs, if necessary. LFS has tons of evil curbs where there is a sharp edge on one side or the curb is really high. If you catch the car body on those you go airborne. Cool, but not fast.

I think the setup guides out there do a nice job of explaining brakes, and it takes a lot of experience before a racer can use brakes as a turn-in aid. It also takes a good setup to withstand the slight entry oversteer without wearing out the rear tires or completely spinning out. Strangely enough, that is another reason to forgo toe out, since the rear brake bias will turn the car faster (in my opinion) than toe out, and toe out will just make the car twitchy while you're trying to whip it into the corner with the brakes. I think the tight turns on Westhill are a good example of where this technique is fast.
Petrichor (and others) thanks very much for the advice in this thread; really useful.
Quote from petrichor :Whas is the front ARB bug? That would explain why I see a lot of sets with ARB rates that are 3x as high as the front spring rates.

I'd love to see this explained... lately I've gone to very low / 0 roll bar settings and find the cars much nicer to drive. Can run lower power side settings on the dif and still get power to the ground effectively, so don't have such a horrible snap when the loaded wheel loses traction...
#15 - Davo
Locked diffs and stiff front ARBS are expolits for the FWD cars. Instead of causing the car to understeer like it should, they actually make the car oversteer and 'pull around' better under throttle. This is why many of the WR sets for FWD have a locked diff, very stiff front arb and soft rear arb.
Ah fair enough. I find an 80 power side clutch pack with a moderate front / rear roll balance provides more consistent cornering under both throttle on and off conditions, without the big pendulum swings the locked dif can produce...
It is true that stiff front ARB will tend to make a car understeer during steady-state cornering. The high weight transfer at the front (instead of the rear) causes less front grip.

However, under power the high front weight transfer combined with locked differential mean that higher torque (and foward thrust) are being applied at the outside wheel than the inside wheel. The foward thrust on the outside wheel causes a yaw moment that rotates the car into the turn. Therefore, what you have observed in the game is consistent with real world physics.

Note that if the differential was open, the outside wheel thrust would be no greater than the inside wheel thrust, so there would be zero yaw moment due to thrust (assuming small steer angles).

General principles for good setups
(17 posts, started )
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