No worries, I just know that the demographic for sim racing is somewhat different.
And I know many 'elders' who game - the thing is that they are too intelligent to waste their money buying the same game over and over again with slightly different content... so the corporations concentrate on the kids and the gfx card geeks
And it seems that even when folks do grow out of mainstream games, they don't grow out of sim racing... in fact, I would imagine that many gamers are more likely to find sim racing attractive as they get older and start to see things differently and appreciate the depth and value of a really good sim as opposed to the glitz and immediacy of a well produced arcade game.
Personally the only thing outside of Sim Racing that really gets me interested in the gaming world is what Nintendo does - they seem to be the only company that has anything of real value to offer gaming in the long term. They are the only folks willing to take chances and push the envelope.
Well, I have been playing games for far too many years (who here remembers rogue, elite and frogger on a hercules pc/xt? or more on topic, the first accolade driving games, test drive and grand prix? )
Part of the reason I decided to get involved in this game is BECAUSE it is an independently developed game. Modern games have become an industry comparable to the music industry or the movie industry. Big money, major marketing, crap content. LFS has the feel of the old, fun games that I used to enjoy, before the industry decided that I was just a consumer, boxed into a specific demographic for them to throw their marketing at me.
In Game Advertising (IGA) is another reason why I don't want to play any of the new ea or valve games. I don't own a tv, because I don't like the advertising on it, and I certainly don't want advertising thrown at me while I am playing, or to install the IGA spyware with my games...
(examples of games infiltrated by the IGA spyware include Race, BF2142 and Valve have recently signed a contract with IGA as well to place dynamic advertising into counterstrike)
I am happy with the content that this game/sim has already. Every update is a bonus! It is the most fun I have had playing since quake 1.
I'm sorry col, but you were the one insinuating that higher poly isn't actually better because "bigger the better" is not right in video games? Uh. Yes, it is. More poly means less edges, more rounded looking. And there's a reason for that; real cars are not made out of poly, they're not made out of edges, but smooth plates, and the best way to achieve that is by making adding more poly. How many poly do you think a sphere would have?
Else, I totally agree with XC, and I don't think that LFS sucks either, it's just that it's not in the mood of the current video gaming community AS A WHOLE. It's true that LFS is not primarily about fancy look (and by that I mean realistic), it's about feeling, but as far as I know, when someone is in a car, there's not only the car on the road, there's also how they look, how everything around looks, and what sound everything makes. The goal of a simulation is to make something as close as the reality as possible, and that, LFS is only achieving in certain precise ways.
Again, I don't dislike LFS, it's a great game, but we all agree that it would win a lot being worked on by a bigger team. We also all agree that certain things are just not right; Scawen probably agrees too, I don't think a second that he believes car interiors are fixed, it's just that they're 3, and whatever time they put in LFS will always be less than a team of 20 or 50 person could do.
Edit: let me enter in edit mode to quote my brother, from about two months ago in an improvement suggestion topic:
"Scawen takes care of the physics, Eric takes care of the look. Normally, Eric working on better models or textures should not slow Scawen down, unless he's done with everything, and since this is not the case, we can say that at the moment, graphics details are just as important as physics.
That said, the wheels have no bolts...
..."
This, basically is a resume of what is wrong in LFS and why we somehow can ask questions. When have we seen the last major graphic update/improvement? Well, the last big one was the BF1, which is like... one car in a couple of months, not really a good rhythm. Oh yes! We got some new wheels for the single seater's, and even some sidewall markings! Is that all? In months, it's all we got, there's nothing in patch V that is related to graphic improvements. What's Eric doing? I'm wondering really, because he'd need to throw a complete patch of graphical updates to somehow catch up.
I think LFS is taking way too long to advance ,the point i was making is that reading an endless stream of crap would not inspire me to work harder or produce anything any faster.
Well, you get a load of crap if you're not doing what the people want you to do, it's the way life works, eh! In my opinion, Scavier can't really complain that we're moaning all the time, because they just don't really have contact with us. That's yet another thing lacking to LFS, better contact with the dev team. Apart from a couple of patch per years, some messages by Scawen that are most of the time related only to the current test-patch and from a huge message once in a while from Scawen, basically telling us to shut the hell up, we get nothing.
Taking up from what I said in my previous post, it's been ages since we heard of Eric, we have just NO idea on what he's been working.
Scawen doesn't communicate much with the community? Now I've heard it all! Again I guess you'll say it's a case of "better than anything out there, but not very good nonetheless". It seems to me that we have the most vocal developers on the planet, at least in terms of sims Scawen does have well over 1000 posts, not sure how many but... Just do a search for his posts and see what you've missed.
This kind of thing always comes up time and time again, but... when people are saying we have been getting a lack of information, I think those may be referring to the usual teasers of information for what is to come. Back when S2 was first going to debut... we had screenshots, videos, etc etc... and any kind of developer information that was a WHOLE LOT more informative than what Scawen has been posting. Perhaps the things they are working on are not 'definite' features that will be added into S2... it seems a lot of the things being done are just miscellaneous finishing items to push S2 final. A but unfortunate because a lot of our expectations for what was going to be put into S2 has now been tossed away in the 'for later' bin.
But of course, that also demonstrates another reason why they could be so quiet. A lot of times in the past they "spoke too soon" about things, and well, that has ruined it for fans because now they know those things on their to-do list are simply not feasible, neither on their agenda for development. Quite a fair list of things they've created hype with, and in the end, there always seems to be concern from fans... whether or not they really think LFS is going to last into the future at this rate of creeping developments and loss of expected features packaged for S2 final.
Could you think of things that you thought was coming in S2 (past and present), but never made it... and still waiting for?:
-Rally pack? (not going to happen obviously)
-LX8
-New Cockpits
-Balancing?
-Track scenery updates (as stated on their site coming soon for the 'final' version)
-Car Model updates (as stated on their site) (specifically outdated RB4, LX4, and LX6 needed to be finished for skinners a long time ago (since late 2004!))
Those are the two other things I thought would be worked on frequently for S2. I know how you feel richo
--I wont say much else
Of course, things change, the scope of work turns a different direction... and we can't always get what they say they will have for us. That said, I think the somewhat unspoken nature of the devs (versus pre-S2 era) is due to the fact that they don't want to get into the issues of false hope/expectations for fans. Though, if they truly know what is next in line for release, a bit more previews and fan material wouldn't hurt -- and THAT is where they've fallen for the past 2 years or so.
They can pick it all back up again, they just need better connection like they once had. Progress reports, screenshots, the lot... it was all beneficial at the time... and they can still keep at it for the website.
For what it's worth, David Kaemmer (co-founder of the now defunct Papyrus) has some interesting thoughts from an insider's perspective about some of the issues which are being discussed in this thread; namely, the market for simulations and non-simulation racing titles. Read them here: http://www.gamespot.com/features/6103365/p-8.html That is just one section from a much larger article about the history of Papyrus which is worth a read.
Here's what he has to say:
"... interest in simulations, a category somewhat different than most games, hasn't grown at the same rate as interest in games in general. Simulations are more difficult to market, since the fundamental enjoyment you get out of them is learning a difficult skill. People buying a toy--which is how people think of computer 'games'-- apparently don't expect or want to master a difficult skill. ...
The computer game business is really becoming a toy business, especially with the popularity of console gaming. That's not the right market for a simulation. ...
The real problem is that we're reaching the wrong customers. If Papyrus were to have dumbed down the experience in order to make a console game, they would have had no competitive advantage. There are a zillion driving 'games' out there and many of them look really nice since the console budgets allow for a lot of flash. But none of them are true driving simulators, despite what they say. They don't need to be. They are being sold by the licenses. ...
For auto racing simulations there has always been a disconnection between the experience as a participant, which is what we were providing, and the experience as a spectator, which is what has always been used to sell the game. Auto racing is far more exciting for the participant than for the spectator, but people who haven't participated in it don't realize that. They are more interested in the soap opera that is professional racing, in the personalities of the drivers, and the paint schemes on the cars. That's why we've always had to rely on big licenses: NASCAR, IndyCar, F1, Porsche, Ferrari, and so on. Unfortunately, those licenses are getting more and more costly, and now it is absolutely necessary to be making console games to be able to afford the licenses. ..."
Well, it seems to me Eric was never very, erm, vocal (I'm not sure how his post count is, but I bet it's looooow). That said, it's really not much of a surprise that we don't hear much about his work. However, it seems people are somewhat forgetting that many of the graphical changes that we have been waiting for cannot be done in a compatible patch. That goes for new cockpits just as much as for changes to car models. And most people certainly wouldn't want hotlaps to be deleted, replays going out of sync and setups becoming more or less useless everytime Eric has finished a graphical update, right?
Eric... talk? not anymore lol, i even recall Scawen saying Eric didn't talk much at one of the LFS get togethers in the UK
as for him talking on the forums.. here.. never i believe (goes and checks) yep.. nothing
as for him at RSC (which i've seen a few of his posts before) ah yes.. he's racked up 2 pages 86 posts lol
weird that i still recall his avatar as being a GTR Viper
omg i keep looking through his posts which tend to be more of just little chat and little info (good stuff) every... post.. he has a smily at the end hahaa
Hmm, I don't know about the sims only, but just look at other games that are constantly in development (mmo's are probably the best example of that). The websites are updated a couple of times a day, there's in general a much more elaborated system. They have a precise way to work, something people can count on, not like LFS. The only thing that LFS has is a more personal approach since Scawen is basically alone to talk to the community.
Personally, it doesn't bother me THAT much, I think I'm just used to see the same web page for about 5 months before it changes, but still, I think I'm not alone that would like to see another approach. And think about it, of the people on this forum, only a few will eventually quit the game, we're the ones who will stay the longest. But we're not alone playing this game, there are a lot of people that get bored not to see updates on a regularly basis, and even thought we know that the point of the game is not to see itself by the million, it's not a good thing to let people go away like this.
In MMOGs it's the CMs communicating with the players, not the people who actually design and write the code. Examples would help It can get frustrating to wait for updates but remember: quality over quantity . I do think LFS has a decent amount of _dev_ communication versus other games I've played.
lol we get loads of updates, and compatible patches - Scawen has explained that he is working on non-compatible code but that when he codes something that can be added to a compatible test patch he does so... He has also mentioned that Eric is working on content for future non-compatible versions.
I'm sure Eric is working hard, and I think your insinuations are totally out of order - Anyway, why should they change the way they work to suit you ? They are developing a very good piece of software - it's already the best available, why would they change anything in their approach... if it aint broke, don't fix it...
(and if you think it is broke, you certainly havn't provided any justification for that belief or proof to back it up)
Their approach has changed over the years.... are they (errr Eric) doing anything that even 'suits' us? Apparently from reactions in threads like these, they aren't. Time taken to make content is what some of us feel can be held against their progress, and it's not like we are pulling this stuff out of the hat, we have been sitting around hoping some of the things expected are going to be at our front door "soon". Yet we get more fans that fail to see the big picture, and you can come back in here saying we are forgetting they are "hard at work" and "give them a chance". Come on now .
S2 hasn't been all that is hyped up to be from the past, so we have to stick with what we got coming That doesn't exactly give fans the motivation to play much anymore.
How do YOU know what they have or have not been working on? let's have some evidence.
...
Yes people fail to see the big picture, but what annoys me is that they continue to refuse to see it even when it is explained over and over again. (Although there seem to be many times more people who do understand and are willing to be patient than there are complaining about the dev process or the devs workrate)
What hype did the Devs present about S2 alpha that S2 alpha has not lived up to ?
Originally, S2 was not even supposed to have ANY damage. I've always gotten the impression that S2 is turning out to be more than it was planned to, but that's the nature of have no concrete development plan... (I guess that sounds stupid , but you know what I mean)
Here's my 2 cent's, let Intel jump in bed with Rfactor - it means absolutely nothing. As big companies like that will switch alliegances software wise many times.
We all know that LFS is the far superior racing simulator, I can only compare the situation to the entire catalogue of lesser known titles by the public such as Albatross18, Silkroad Online, Pirate King Online etc.
It's just not LFS's time yet but bask in the glory when LFS's time does come because you'll all have been on the bandwagon before it went mainstream
Can you tell I just typed that up ad-lib...hmmm
P.s. hello to all sorry I haven't been around - trying to get a job and a move sorted down so i can live in englandland
That is just so arrogant approach to anything. "We know better". It may work as an opinion but not as a fact. By using the "we know" you have put a lot of people in one group. I very much dislike how people use that "we know better" phrase with anything. It is FOX news stuff...
Ever thought that LFS may never hit it big? Maybe it's too hardcore to attract a lot of poeple (in commercial sense).
I mean I showed LFS to a lot of friends and also let them drive. Most of them were amazed of the car feeling. But they would never buy it because it's a simulator where you actually have to "work" to become better. Not like NFS or TDU where you actually can jump in for a race or two when it pleases you and where you can have fun right away.
For most poeple it's frustrating if they don't get a success experience (don't know if you say it so in english) right away.
Scawen does have well over 1000 posts, not sure how many but... Just do a search for his posts and see what you've missed.
86 posts lol
It can get frustrating to wait for updates but remember: quality over quantity 
. I do think LFS has a decent amount of _dev_ communication versus other games I've played.
, but you know what I mean)