Preload in a factory car? Never knew it was that big of a deal, most cars I know of are open diff. anyways.

the Race cars would benafite from this but Preload alone isn't going to make LFS any better. Slow/fast dampening rates would help with the addition of the "third" spring into the formula cars. Then taking ideas from GTR having an option to increase or fdecrease brake ducting and having the brakes fade, I could keep going =)

dynamic weather =)

ok I will shut up, we have all heard this before.

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

But seriously, how is some preload going to drastically affect all the cars in LFS?

Preload keeps the diff locked during no-power-no-brakes situations. Currently, when you approach a corner with no acceleration you are driving a open diff. The car was set up considering that the locking of the diff creates understeer. This understeer is gone in such situations. The car is oversteery. In real life it wouldn't be.
In LFS everyone started to 'stabilize the car on the throttle' by pushing the throttle to ~20-40%. That's a basic LFS-technique to lock the diff in all situations where you want to increase grip on the rear. In real life you'd decrease grip this way.
It's of no importance on Aston National. It only matters where you enter difficult corner-combinations when few acceleration/deceleration is required.

Vain

Quote from Viper93 :

the Race cars would benafite from this but Preload alone isn't going to make LFS any better.

I assume this is because of the cornering forces?

Edit @ Vain: It doesn't completely lock it up though. Preload on a regular salisbury type diff is just there to stop it from staying open with "one wheel low traction" conditions... I understand your point thought, but without trying to approach a very tight corner at good speed I can't see it making much difference on a road car & with road tires. If you had massive preload then I get the point, so this is likely to be a larger issue with race cars IMO. (still feel free to prove me wrong though)

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

I assume this is because of the cornering forces?

prevents the diff from seperating under corners that really don't need it while still allowing the diff to open up easy for the tough corners like a hairpin which if you set pressure alone wouldn't open as easy if you didn't have preload and set the diff to say 90% in LFS terms.

If there was preload you could set the diff to say 40% letting the diff open up earlier in the hairpin allowing the car to turn easier for longer. While preventing the diff from unloading the power in a faster, less radiused corner. At least this is how I interpet preload. I could be totally wrong.

Quote from Vain :

Just look at the diff and you know it's way off.
In that sense all LFS cars are unreal, but on the BF1 it's most apparent, because a real F1 car has a very sophisticated diff.
Oh, and our TC is way off too of course. I don't even have to mention aero.

Edit @ Testpatchthread:
I think Scawen knows very well that LFS is far away from being completed and that there is a long way to go. He is one of the persons who decide which way to go to 'LFS 1.0 final'. Of course other people will have different priorities along this way than Scawen does, and they will lay down their opinions and reasons for those. Why that is worth a 'this makes me sad'-post is beyond me!
Scawen wants to spend his time on InSim, I would have spent my time on differentials. No reason to go all .


Vain

this man knows whats going on
I wont even use clucth pack lsd's in lfs utter crap, only the viscous lsd's are pretty good, most race cars besides F1 run so much pre load on diffs, they may as well be lockers anyway, but yeah F1 has electronic diffs, schumacer was notorius for changing his diff for different sectors of the track, im dreaming for the day, the F1 is just like the real thing, traction control for low and high speed corners configuerable from the car while driving, the TC when used , shouldnt slow the car down to zero, u see the F1 cars of today they keep going forward, in lfs the put out barley 50hp when its on,
and camber and proper suspension phisics would be a load blower for me, atm in the gtr's ui cant even run - 4 degrees camber , after 1 lap the tires are fried, and shouldnt be

Quote from seinfeld :

ok, then you havent even got a clue

2nd is lfs lost the F1 from intel, because well its utter crap, the rfactor sauber f106 is amazing in phisics, lfs needs a lot of work, or even a small amount of developing , it has the ability to be good, but i want, exact of the real thing, including electronic diff, high &low speed traction controll,the TC atm is pathetic, when it comes on u literally only get 50hp thru the wheels, brake biasing, also brake travel, better tire phisics, like u cant even run 3 degrees neg camber without 1 lap making the temp go thru the roof, lfs rushed thir sauber and are paying for it

I am glad I wore my belt as I fear my sides have split

The ONLY reason that rF got the BF1 is that the LFS devs would not agree to all the requests from Intel. Scawen has even stated so on this forum when it was first announced. When the devs did not agree Intel knocked on the rF door.

It looks like Intel wanted a private version of LFS for their use and they allow some of the content in the public version when they decided, just as it happened in rF after the BF1 was announced in that sim. Intel wanted to hold it back in the public version until after their show.

BTW... Do you REALLY believe that the rF BF1 is accurate? I mean REALLY believe that?

You do know that the rF engine is the old ISI engine, it does not even use the FF techniques that ANY serious sim uses in the modern world but instead just plays effects when it thinks they should be played.

Any REAL sim since RBR has worked the FF from a virtual steering column that has the forces from the front wheels applied to it.

Yep RF was based on old ISI physics platform that was modified. The FFB is done with pure effects and nothing is calculated, I have the game but it's nothing to write home about, nice to have real tracks, couldn't be fussed about real cars though as long as the cars handled realisticly.

Quote from Woz :

BTW... Do you REALLY believe that the rF BF1 is accurate? I mean REALLY believe that?

He believes because he thinks it's real because it has all those advanced setup options that F1 teams use for setting the car. But the fact that it handles like poo, that doesn't matter? Because the pit stop is real..
So, having those options, having the fancy pit crew that can hold you back in the pit stop, like in real life, weather changes, and other "real" options means that the sim is real?? It's a nice addition, don't get me wrong, but you first have to make the basics right, and that is the realistic car behavior and realistic behaviour through the Force Feedback mechanism, the only feadback you can get sitting in you room chair.
Thank god that Scawen chose to do it right way first..

Quote from Whitmore :

Why do some LFS fans keep trotting out this crap? Of course the FFB in ISI sims is calculated. What it doesn't claim to be is the torque at the steering column or whatever LFS FFB is claimed to be.

What else is there to be calculated?

1337 effects!!111

Quote from Whitmore :

Why do some LFS fans keep trotting out this crap? Of course the FFB in ISI sims is calculated. What it doesn't claim to be is the torque at the steering column or whatever LFS FFB is claimed to be.

We were on about someone claiming that rF offers the absolute best implementation of the BF1 and that rF is "more real" than LFS.

BTW, its not crap. The ISI is crap effects based FF and however you want to word it will not change it. Its the same with the physics simulation, rF is bad once you step outside the circle of grip for a tire, it all breaks down. This is also a KNOW issue that hardly ANYONE will dispute.

BTW. LFS does not claim to be it IS a virtual steering column that has the forces from the fronts applied to it just as RBR and the new wave of sims such as DR will be. Its the ONLY was to simulate FF so that it does not feel like a pile of poo BTW

Quote from Boris Lozac :

He believes because he thinks it's real because it has all those advanced setup options that F1 teams use for setting the car. But the fact that it handles like poo, that doesn't matter? Because the pit stop is real..
So, having those options, having the fancy pit crew that can hold you back in the pit stop, like in real life, weather changes, and other "real" options means that the sim is real?? It's a nice addition, don't get me wrong, but you first have to make the basics right, and that is the realistic car behavior and realistic behaviour through the Force Feedback mechanism, the only feadback you can get sitting in you room chair.
Thank god that Scawen chose to do it right way first..

im not saying its perfect at all quite from it, the general feel of the sauber in rfactor is a lot nicer then the lfs one, thats all im saying
yes the ffb is utter shit as well.

@Seinfeld, can you please precede all of your posts with this sound, otherwise I won't read them.
Some canned laughter might help too.

well, I might quote (again) BMW F1 Testdriver Timo Glock: "Wow, that really gets close to the real thing, I wanna play with the setups" after playing LFS. And honestly, if no one comes up with something at least comparable by one of the 4 guys that drive a BMW F1 irl about the rf-sauber, this is the ultimate judgement atm.

Quote from Vykos69 :

well, I might quote (again) BMW F1 Testdriver Timo Glock: "Wow, that really gets close to the real thing, I wanna play with the setups" after playing LFS. And honestly, if no one comes up with something at least comparable by one of the 4 guys that drive a BMW F1 irl about the rf-sauber, this is the ultimate judgement atm.

I never heard that before. That's pretty interesting!

Although; we could use the standard "race drivers know nothing about sims" argument against ourselves :hide:

edit: When was this comment? What are the details surrounding it?

Quote from Vykos69 :

well, I might quote (again) BMW F1 Testdriver Timo Glock: "Wow, that really gets close to the real thing, I wanna play with the setups" after playing LFS. And honestly, if no one comes up with something at least comparable by one of the 4 guys that drive a BMW F1 irl about the rf-sauber, this is the ultimate judgement atm.

=) These are the comments that usually get buried =)



Vykos69 This isn't the best place for this but I wanted to publicly say Sorry for any harsh words that I have said previously. It was nothing against you or anything that you work on and I was being immature (hmm go figure)

MoE is a great league, Muroc has tried to field cars before but we have always fell short and had to pull out. Goes to show what kind of caliber of teams enter MoE, that or how poor Muroc is at attending league races, I would guess a bit of both.

Hi

In LFS I can normally have smooth animated multiplayer racing (and that's the only realistic racing anyway in my opinion) without the slightest dropouts.

Anything else, content, graphics, tire model, damage model, you name it, doesn't interest me in the slightest way, as long as it is programmed in a manner which I can call realistic. This is fulfilled in LFS and it gets better.

Bottom line: The main aspects of a good race, in my opinion, are not perfectly designed graphics, highly diverse or licensed cars and tracks or a absolutely perfect physics engine. It's a bunch of good, partly cold blooded, partly hot headed, racers who don't give anything about a perfectly modeled engine sound.

It's about racing. I can do this here.

Greets,
JPursey

Quote from Whitmore :

Why do some LFS fans keep trotting out this crap? Of course the FFB in ISI sims is calculated. What it doesn't claim to be is the torque at the steering column or whatever LFS FFB is claimed to be.

now rfactor also has "the torque at the steering column or whatever". And somehow the ffb feels a ton better with some cars like the bmw m3 e46,F1 07, and panozes.

Quote from Gabkicks :

now rfactor also has "the torque at the steering column or whatever". And somehow the ffb feels a ton better with some cars like the bmw m3 e46,F1 07, and panozes.

Is that in the latest version (1.150, I believe)? That's the one I have and I still feel oddly detached from the car, but I heard that it's possible to tweak the ffb-settings to make things a little better. Would you know how to make rfactors ffb feel more LFS-like, Gabkicks? I'd appreciate some help, as I'd like to learn the Nordschleife a little better. (DFP is my wheel).

I believe the new forcefeedback effects for rfactor are supplied on a separate plug-in. It only works on the cars that have been designed around it though.

it works well with the cars i mentioned above. Instructions are all here.
its a WIP still... it feels okay with the wtcc cars... I am not sure what to say about the 1979F1 cars you can really feel the camber in the roads... i havent bothered tweaking the realfeel settings much.
http://forum.rscnet.org/showthread.php?t=291072

Quote from Platinum pete :

I believe the new forcefeedback effects for rfactor are supplied on a separate plug-in. It only works on the cars that have been designed around it though.

it works on every car with a suspension geometry that is based on reality rather than having been pulled from somebodys arse (which appears to be the case for most rf mods)

Quote from Linsen :

Is that in the latest version (1.150, I believe)? That's the one I have and I still feel oddly detached from the car, but I heard that it's possible to tweak the ffb-settings to make things a little better. Would you know how to make rfactors ffb feel more LFS-like, Gabkicks? I'd appreciate some help, as I'd like to learn the Nordschleife a little better. (DFP is my wheel).

1.250 is latest version of rFactor.

Quote from Platinum pete :

It only works on the cars that have been designed around it though.

As Shotglass pointed out, that's not entirely true. As in real life any errors in the suspension geometry that would cause strange forces on the steering will do the same when using the RealFeel plugin. Use the plugin with suspension geometry and tyres that work well and the result feels extremely similar to LFS (i.e. good ).

The way the plugin works is very simple - it takes the SteeringArmForce provided by the physics engine and applies it to the FFB. The most complicated parts of the plugin are the code to read & write the ini file, check for hotkeys and provide speech feedback to hotkey presses. The FFB code itself is a simple bit of maths.

welll i fyou think about it....the ratio of chavs, to racers is about 100000-1....meaning, rFactor it likely to be 100000 better than LFS, considering LFS is the real simulator game, and rFactor is for those chavs who put big gay wings on their car, even thought there is no need. I think lfs Should re do the car shells a bit though, im bit tired of having the same cars for over 3 years now, i like the car handling, but not the body.