I think LFS is missing a bunch of important set-up options for the GTR cars and for the open-wheel cars as well. Coming from GPL and also using GTR2 and R-factor on occasion, the setup page in LFS looks kinda weak...
LFS is the best sim (for me) at giving a feeling of driving and also a feeling of the changes I make to the cars setup. Theres just some things missing! I'm sure the dev's have contemplated nearly everyone of these, and I hope they take them all into consideration. What do you guys think?
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-Differential Pre-load
-Fast Bump/Rebound damper Adjustments
-Suspension Packers
-Specific corner adjustments, ie; tire pressure,camber,toe etc.
-Suspension Spring stiffness that isn't so directly related to ride height
-Brake Duct (requires brake wear)
-Radiator Duct (requires engine wear/temp.)
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-"stock" cars have too many adjustments
-types of differentials shouldn't be an option
-parallel steer should be referred to as ackerman
-Online setup database ala GTR2, would be beautiful. Look at all the threads in the setup section just looking for a base setup!
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Previously suggested changes:
-locked differential issues
-setup folder's for track/car (possibly customizable folders ie: base setups, specific track setups, sub-folders like; qauli set,short race,long race etc etc.

I can adjust every corner tire pressure and camber.

Differential pre-load and 4-way dampers are not adjustable since they are not yet modelled. I'm sure they will be adjustable once they are modelled.

Do you have a good link to what packers actually are?

Tire pressures and camber are already adjustable per wheel, I can't imagine why you would want toe adjustable per wheel.

I don't understand what you mean by spring stiffness and ride height. A spring has a fixed length and a fixed stiffness. Changing the stiffness does not alter the length of the spring, but of course it will alter the spring deflection when the vehicle's mass is resting on them.

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Not sure on the differential type choice, I don't know many types of diff than can actually be adjusted (electronic ones aside for a moment, since we don't have those in LFS) without replacement, if you can replace a diff, why not with one of a different type?

I agree with you about the Ackermann / parallel steering issue. I always use them around to the other way to LFS.

An online setup database exists, no idea what the GTR2 one is like but the TeamInferno one is used by many and seems to serve the purpose well.

Quote from Bob Smith :

An online setup database exists, no idea what the GTR2 one is like but the TeamInferno one is used by many and seems to serve the purpose well.

GTR 1 at least had in game browsable server directories with setups, anyone could send theirs there and well, um, it was bit mess there, imo. Would work if planned properly, don't know if they did changes to that in GTR2.

http://sify.com/sports/motorsport/fullstory.php?id=900962

Quote :

Packers: Packers form part of the suspension assembly and adjust the position at which the bump rubbers become loaded.

Check also http://www.f1technical.net/articles/39

So hmm, bump stops I know, also I know what packers do, but can't get picture to my head.

Reading that makes it sound like they act like a bump stop that comes into play before the spring is fully compressed. So adjusting them is just removing the bottom end of the motion range on a spring? So, in an ideal world, you wouldn't need them, but since everything is a compromise they can be useful to prevent something hitting the ground - right?

Quote from Bob Smith :

Reading that makes it sound like they act like a bump stop that comes into play before the spring is fully compressed. So adjusting them is just removing the bottom end of the motion range on a spring? So, in an ideal world, you wouldn't need them, but since everything is a compromise they can be useful to prevent something hitting the ground - right?

Hmm, like a shim, adjusts bump stop length and sits between body and bumpstop?

After reading some more I have come to that conclusion, so instead of changing bumpstop design you add material between bumpstop and body and this is called packers then.

Spring packer

5th and 6th photo from top, he makes packer, I guess?

Never have had need for such, even bump stops I did lost at front, not my fault well, kind of there was one only at other side and even that I forgot to put back in when assembled front end with new shocks, it won't need any and got 50mm more suspension travel, which actually made rear inside wheel to loose even more traction, but that is problems with super soft suspension.

I know some of my suggestions couldn't happen ATM because of certain modeling/physics limitations, I'm just suggesting them all, easily implemented or not, because I thought they are all other possible and realistic options that are currently missing. As I stated "I'm sure Scawen already thought of all of this"


This is my understanding (not sayin' I know what I'm talking about)

Packers are a soft bump stop....they allow you to run alot of downforce with softer suspension by not letting the springs compress all the way, giving you (at a much suspension higher rate) suspension travel down the straights with out running out of ride height. They are adjusted because in slower corners you would like to use the whole spring so you would want a smaller packer. At a track with many fast corners and many slow corners, you could still run a soft car by using the packers to save you from any damage when bumps are taken at higher speeds.

I got a list of things from a forum that you can change on a F1 car in one of those other "sims"

TIRE PRESSURE
ANTI-ROLL BAR
FRONT TOE IN
SPRING RATE
SLOW BUMP
SLOW REBOUND
FAST BUMP
FAST REBOUND
PACKERS
RIDE HEIGHT
CAMBER
CASTER
BRAKE DISC-disc width, rotating weight vs. cooling/wear
TIRE PRESSURE
TIRE COMPOUND
GEARS
RADIATOR SIZE
BOOST MAPPING -no idea
ENGINE BRAKE MAP
FRONT DOWN FORCE
REAR DOWN FORCE
STEERING LOCK
BRAKE BIAS
BRAKE DUCT SIZE
BRAKE PRESSURE
PUMP%
POWER%
COAST%
PRELOAD
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Originally Posted by Bob Smith
Not sure on the differential type choice, I don't know many types of diff than can actually be adjusted (electronic ones aside for a moment, since we don't have those in LFS) without replacement, if you can replace a diff, why not with one of a different type?
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-Good point, but Formula cars and the GT cars are usually restricted to rules that govern what kind of diff. they use(I'm guessing)


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Originally Posted by Bob Smith
I don't understand what you mean by spring stiffness and ride height. A spring has a fixed length and a fixed stiffness. Changing the stiffness does not alter the length of the spring, but of course it will alter the spring deflection when the vehicle's mass is resting on them.
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"Ride height (ground clearance or simply clearance) is the amount of space between the base of an automobile tire and the underside of the chassis"

- You can adjust spring stiffness, but the ride height setting stays the same in LFS. In the sense of the term, it should stay the same unless you change it. You can watch the car move up and down if you stiffen the suspension. Now I do understand that soft suspension will let the car lay further down, but then the measure of the ride height should change accordingly...(again I think)


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Originally Posted by Bob Smith
An online setup database exists, no idea what the GTR2 one is like but the TeamInferno one is used by many and seems to serve the purpose well.
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It is in game, and fairly organized. It separates setups by track and then by car, thus if you went to say, Blackwood, you could go to the online data base and scroll through a bunch of setups that were uploaded by other people. Read a small description of a few and view its rating (community rating). That way your easy to drive setups could be easily accessible to every LFS player with proper recognition and a popularity factor of 10!


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Originally Posted by Bob Smith
Tire pressures and camber are already adjustable per wheel, I can't imagine why you would want toe adjustable per wheel.
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You're right about toe. But I do think it is quite realistic to allow for separate spring/damper settings for each wheel as they are separate spring/shock assemblies. An oval racing type suspension pops to mind, but even on a road course, I'm sure I would take advantage of the option to adjust maybe, say, for a different rear stiffness on one side to counter a series of fast corners that are the same direction.
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Again, I know I don't know what I'm talking about....

About the ride height, it's essentially just mis-labeled in LFS, it's the spring length you're actually adjusting, but due to the way LFS works internally, you don't set the spring length directly, rather some weird figure. The trouble is changing it to raw spring length (which would be logical) means braking compatability with all existing setup files, unless extra measures are taken.

Ahhh, ic.

Quote from Bob Smith :

About the ride height, it's essentially just mis-labeled in LFS,

No, LFS has no true ride height adjustment as far as I can tell.

Quote from Bob Smith :

About the ride height, it's essentially just mis-labeled in LFS, it's the spring length you're actually adjusting, but due to the way LFS works internally, you don't set the spring length directly, rather some weird figure. The trouble is changing it to raw spring length (which would be logical) means braking compatability with all existing setup files, unless extra measures are taken.

I think Ride Height should be changed to spring pre-load. I think that is what we are really adjusting.

Well, wouldn't that be a matter of editing a few strings? Surely that can be done...

Quote from Gunn :

No, LFS has no true ride height adjustment as far as I can tell.

Isn't that what I was saying?

So, the rest of the suggestions....what do ya all think?

packars are bumpstops, adding more decreases the stroke of the shock, but maintains ride height

as far as suspension changine ride height that is real like, when u go softer naturally the car is gana be lower

id like to see more metric units of measurment like in spring strenth KG cm2 is used, Kn is never used EVER !

better explaination of the units of measure to as the test speed 40ns? i mean wtf is that, use KM per hour

dampener adjustability, springs adjustability for all 4 corners is a step in the right direction as well,

radiator ect is a bit over the top, I mean most race teams, need the car cooled as much as possible so adding a function that lets u put in a thinner radiator is kinda worthless IMHO

a live dyno to see gear gap spaces ect, without having to leave garage would be good as well, fuel map changes, good for stratagy, timing boost,, when reliabilty becomes a big factor will be good as well

data logging and aquistion is a big thing that is needed as well

Quote from seinfeld :

id like to see more metric units of measurment like in spring strenth KG cm2 is used, Kn is never used EVER !

better explaination of the units of measure to as the test speed 40ns? i mean wtf is that, use KM per hour

dampener adjustability, springs adjustability for all 4 corners is a step in the right direction as well,

radiator ect is a bit over the top, I mean most race teams, need the car cooled as much as possible so adding a function that lets u put in a thinner radiator is kinda worthless IMHO

a live dyno to see gear gap spaces ect, without having to leave garage would be good as well, fuel map changes, good for stratagy, timing boost,, when reliabilty becomes a big factor will be good as well

data logging and aquistion is a big thing that is needed as well

What's wrong with the units in LFS? They are the ideal units for car setups. Since most LFS units are SI units (KiloNewtons, meters, etc), what's wrong?

If there's one more thing that LFS lacks but should have (besides what's already mentioned), it's the use of progressive springs. Settings should include initial(soft) rate and the final (stiff) rate that activates when the spring in series gets bound. And do allow specification of rate changeover point (e.g. rear springs on a powerful RWD car gets stiff after 10mms of initial travel).

Why progressives? It's use is getting more popular by the day, especially those who need better comfort AND handling. From a racing context, extra "comfort" actually translates to extra grip, since it allows the tire loads to fluctuate less over time (keeping tires in contact of the gorund helps too). In fact, the 4WD aftermarket has been generating suspension packages with progressive springs that more comfortable than OEM while still increasing on and off road handling and stability (this of course excludes those stupidly excessive lift kits).

Kg/cm2 to Kn/m is rather easy conversion, roughly the same number, but as Newton is not 10 but 9.8something it is that 1kg/cm2 is 0.980665 kN/m unless my brain is not mixing units as I just woke up

Sure few alternative units to choose from could be nice, but not very important.

What about dampers, you should set valving, say 275/78 Bilstein, of course that would be bit hard to understand but that is used IRL, well that would be 2750 newtons rebound and 780 newtons bump both at 0.52 m/s.
Now if we take Koni, it is told differently again so we should need many different units of valving.

But seriously dampers are adjusted in 100N increments, is this bit rough, 10N or at least 50N might be good, imo, but of course hard to feel difference of 100N also.

OK, i've just got to say something.

People alwys complain that Car A shoudnt have Adjustment B, because it's real life street variant wouldnt have it.... Bugs the hell out of me, because it lacks any kind of intiutive imagination. With a little thinking one realses that these probably are NOT ordianry street cars, but street legal CUP cariants of thier plain jane counterparts. Or simply that the class in which they are entered in ALLOWS all of those adjustments.

Want settings a certain way in a league? Feel free to hold tech inspections after the race. Collect everyone's setups, and take a look at each. Someone could even make a program for doing that.

I have to disagree with you, Keiichi. The road cars in this game are just that - road cars. They are not cup cars and not race cars. They have no rollcage and full interiors. As such, they should have only a very limited adjustment. Say, perhaps, three ride heights, five levels of damping, three ARB settings, and three final gear ratios (transmission ratios locked).

Not only would this be more realistic, but it would also help even the playing field and make it easier for newbies to learn the basics of car setup. And even full blown race cars don't have the near infinite adjustment of things like LFS has. Not even Sauber can change their final gearing by .01% or alter every single transmission gear for every single race. There are a limited number of input and output teeth which are used to determine ratio. This is how it is in the real world, and this is how LFS needs to be as well. Car setup is all about compromise and right now LFS misses a lot of that, due to the huge rate of adjustment it allows.

+1 for that. Good ideas Add an advanced/basic setup option so, the noobs can use simple method, n others can use the full blown asymetric setup options

V

Quote from Venus :

+1 for that. Good ideas Add an advanced/basic setup option so, the noobs can use simple method, n others can use the full blown asymetric setup options

V

agreed, grand prix used to have the simple and advanced setup options.

re individual wheel toe adjust, my road car has this as standard and it has been known for it to cause serious problems in the hands of some people, however it would be usefull to alter the handling balance between left and right hand curves but to be honest its probably a feature that woudlnt get used very much

Cue-Ball, you can assert that when you can go buy yourself an XF GTi at the local Scavier Dealership. Lack of a roll cage mean lack of one being requird by regulations. Head over to your locl Auto cross met and you'll see lots of cars with no Roll Cage, and lots of adjustments that thier stock counterparts dont have. Just because it doesn't come from the factory like that Doesnt mean it shouldnt be made available in a racing sim environment. If i could go down to the local speedmart and buy 3-way adjustable shocks for my hot hatch, i shoul dhaev the option to do so for my XF GTi. Camber/Caster/toe plates? you betcha. Adjustble gearbox? Bingo (i'll admit the kind of precision available in LFS would be nigh on impossible for you ro get with off the shelf gears, but anyone with a machine shop could get pretty close.) Adjustable differential? well, you'd have to take it out and replace it with another one, but if you can do it, you can do it. Brake Bias and pressure? hell yes i can get the parts for that at Jegs for less than 200 bucks. Spring rate? Coil springs are a common commodity, not hard to get and actualyl pretty cheap.
Swaybars? hell yes, you can even bolt late model stock car swaybars under your car via an adapter kit (watch sports car revolution)

and you know what? if i wanted to spend the money i could even bolt a set of slicks on my crappy Mercury Sable.


And the last time you saw a car in racing team paint that was bone stock?

I don't disagree that these things are possible. But, they are not common and I don't believe that such modifications fit the devs vision for the road cars. I've seen a twin engine Hyundai before. Since that's *possible*, I suppose we should be able to do that in the game too, according to your logic? What is possible and what is plausible are two different things.

Like I said, if they were meant to be full-on race cars they would have rollcages and no stereos. Yes, you can take your grocery getter to an autocross and not worry about a rollcage. Yes, you can put on aftermarket suspension (which is why I suggested somewhat adjustable ride height, damping, etc). NO car can get the granularity of gear ratios and diff ratios that LFS offers right now. "Road cars", such as the ones in LFS, shouldn't have such things adjustable either. Who in their right mind would spend the money on a custom transmission or diff and springs that are EXACTLY the perfect ride height and stiffness for a particular track, but then not bother with a roll cage, leave the stereo intact, leave the engine bone stock, and keep the car on street tires?

I believe, as I think that most LFS players do, that the road cars are meant to be lightly modified daily driver cars. While some adjustment would be welcome, they should not be treated as race cars or cars with huge amounts of money in the suspension/transmission/diff/etc. This just isn't a likely scenario and is the whole reason that we have multiple classes for each car.

Simply put, LFS needs some cars that are less adjustable and easier to setup, to make it easier for people who are just starting out, to keep the fields even, and to stay true to what a road car is. Not to mention the fact that limiting setups could go a long way towards balancing the classes. I would certainly welcome a new group of cars though. Something between mostly stock road car and the all-out GTR cars that we have now. I would also support opening up all the cars to use slicks, as you mentioned. I think this would be good for everyone, even though you'd very seldom see the street tires used if that were to happen, IMO.

And we still need forced setups, or at least some way to have a "showroom stock" class race.

Quote from KeiichiRX7 :

Head over to your locl Auto cross met and you'll see lots of cars with no Roll Cage

Only in club level stuff, the old 'showroom stock' Solo 2 competition autocross required a rollcage.

Even with considerable modification you can't adjust by the amounts/increments LFS has, not by a long shot! As an example look at the Baby Grand cars; they have a custom motorsport hot-swap diff setup, but only have a half-dozen or so final drive ratios to choose from.

Quote from Cue-Ball :

I have to disagree with you, Keiichi. The road cars in this game are just that - road cars. They are not cup cars and not race cars. They have no rollcage and full interiors. As such, they should have only a very limited adjustment. Say, perhaps, three ride heights, five levels of damping, three ARB settings, and three final gear ratios (transmission ratios locked).

Not only would this be more realistic, but it would also help even the playing field and make it easier for newbies to learn the basics of car setup. And even full blown race cars don't have the near infinite adjustment of things like LFS has. Not even Sauber can change their final gearing by .01% or alter every single transmission gear for every single race. There are a limited number of input and output teeth which are used to determine ratio. This is how it is in the real world, and this is how LFS needs to be as well. Car setup is all about compromise and right now LFS misses a lot of that, due to the huge rate of adjustment it allows.

cue I think this game is for racing drivers, say for instance u owned a XR turbo and was a track car, of course ud have fully adjustable suspension on it, wouldnt you, this game is a perfect world simulation where u have already spent the $$$ and now ur ready to race