Quote from Nick_ll :

Just a little point here for some people:
In the UK and some other places, LFS costs 2/3rd of a full game for an (almost) 2/3rd developped game. What many of you reply to Delerue is that previous line. Has it EVER come to your mind (those who reply the "game is cheaper" argument) that somewhere else in the world, with the exchange rates, the 2/3rd completed game might cost 100% or 75% of a full game? That's 3/3 or 3/4, not 2/3.
Here in Canada for example, right now as we speak, 24GBP is 49.56CAD. So let's agree for 50$. I see here brand new games on shelves for 60$.
Do the math: 50/60=83%.
LFS is in version 0.5 and S2 final (what you pay with 24GBP) will be 66% developped. Not 83%. So here in Canada, LFS IS MORE EXPENSIVE.

So stop saying the arguement it's not: IT IS, depending where you live.

How many racing simulations are as complete as LFS will be when S3 Final is released? I can't think of one. So you should be taking something like 66% of 150% IMO.

Quote from Delerue :

I'm doing what the fans don't do: tell the problems, without fear or something like that. But you simply didn't answer any of my questions and thoughts. Strange...

Can you blame them? And as a matter of fact... Your question was "WTF happened with the DEVs?" and they answered that by simply posting in your useless topic... Well, not totally useless... It can be used as a bad example.

Quote :

Look, I like the game, and think it has a lot of potential things, but I can't deny there's still a lot to be done. And things that had to be done a long time ago; that's the main problem. And you (DEVs) thought this is normal, and that you don't have to say anything about it to the consumers. I remember that before you realeased the alpha version, the progress reports were abounding. Strange...

There is a lot to be done, nobody denies that (and the Devs least of all, even in your topic). The progress reports are still there, as soon as there is something worth mentioning, they will put it up. Yes, I'd like a weekly update on the site as well, but since Scawen and Victor keep us pretty much updated here (even with normal house work when they're not working on LFS) what's the use for updating the website with useless information? That's why they have this forum, and you're welcome to use it.

Quote :

I think you know the most important bugs and problems: sound (where's the multi-channel support? where's the gear sound? doppler? could the crash sounds be at least closer to reality? and so much more...); aero bugs; visual body damage bugs; tyres physics (please, it's impossible that you think a car loses grip at such low rates of speed.); force feedback (how about shaking the joystick-wheel as the engine rotation increases? and how about simulating bumps on the track? there are so many things yet to be done with force feedback...). Well, those are some of the things.

You know the only thing that makes my steering wheel in my real car shake is the road? Well... That and the missing leadweight on my rf rim at anything over 130km/h. You know what starts to move when I put the throttle down of all things? My front bumper. And only because the CAI is a little too snugly fit into the frame.

Quote from Victor :

But if you keep repeating yourself like a broken record, this thread will be closed sooner or later.

NOOOoooooooo... Make it sticky! So everyone of us can find a place to vent some frustration when we had a bad day at work (like me now). Once this thread has outlived its usefulness that is.

Oh, and hihihi sounds like highhighhigh in english... I know you're dutch, but don't advertise it so much hehehe (<- which translates to the dutch hihihi *gniffel, grinnik, grijns*)

I think the cost thind depends on how you look at it! Over here new games are around $50, lfs for me was 42$ (s1+s2) but i didnt have to drive to a store, buy a online kit, and i dont have a cd to keep up with and pray it dont get scratched! Ive tried those other "sims" and, imo, there is no comparison! Lfs was worth every penny and then some! If people dont like the game, dont buy it, pretty simple huh?

Btw, if your having troubles driving the gti at 25mph, maybe lfs isnt the game for you anyway!!

Quote from Nick_ll :

*money argument*

So stop saying the arguement it's not: IT IS, depending where you live.

But how many shelf games do you know that let you pay in 3 terms each over one year apart?
Next argument: Some games are far cheaper than other games, but make you pay to play online...

Let's quit the more or less expensive argument, and come to the conclusion that it is very competitively priced.

Quote from TagForce :

You know the only thing that makes my steering wheel in my real car shake is the road? Well... That and the missing leadweight on my rf rim at anything over 130km/h. You know what starts to move when I put the throttle down of all things? My front bumper. And only because the CAI is a little too snugly fit into the frame.

Well that's not quite true - in a FWD car, there is torque steer - torque steering the front wheels - and this can be felt through the steering wheel... I it is very very noticable in the XF GTR, but of course, Deleure being an S1 racer cannot feel any of that. Some of the cars have frantic feedback...

Quote from axus :

How many racing simulations are as complete as LFS will be when S3 Final is released? I can't think of one. So you should be taking something like 66% of 150% IMO.

That's like the old reply of "how many games do you enjoy as much as LFS??"
That's really a fanboyish arguement. What if LFS is not my way of life and I do not enjoy it more than any other game or sim? What if I don't spend more than 2 or 3 hours a week at most playing LFS (just the time for some races in the weekend)? You can't use that arguement. Here in Canada, LFS costs 83% of a full game for a 66% finished product: FACT.

And you can't ask me how many games will be as complete as LFS WILL BE when it reaches S3 because you don't know. There are titles like NetKar Pro and First Racing (maybe even GP Lengends if a miracle happens) that might get released in the meantime, and then you don't know what will happen with LFS. I personally have absolutely no faith at all in the sounds in LFS getting any improvement at all because I don't remember any reply of the devs saying there will be work on it. What I do remember tho is that a poll on RSC showed that like 50% of those who voted thought the sounds needed work, and when 50% of your userbase think something is wrong with your product, as a business you're supposed to consider the problem very seriously and move it at the top of your to-do list. Not respond to the fanboys demands. The fanboys will say what is released is awesome anyways, no matter what is done. You don't need to gain those customers they are already hooked and don't plan to move. What you want is to get more customers, so on that note, the language patches were a good move.
Then I will agree you can ignore the complaints of some (like Delerue) about the Force Feedback. That's just a matter of how things are simulated and there are no "effects" in LFS. Decision taken. BUT, the sounds need improvement ASAP and not in a future patch somewhere eventually. It is THE weakest point of LFS IMO and I know I'm not alone thinking this. Noone asks to scrap what's been done and go with samples, but dammit, add gearshift sounds, differential sounds, brake hiss, backfire and ambient sounds! It's important for the immersion feeling of LFS. When that's done there will never be other complaints or bad reviews about sounds.

Quote from axus :

Well that's not quite true - in a FWD car, there is torque steer - torque steering the front wheels - and this can be felt through the steering wheel... I it is very very noticable in the XF GTR, but of course, Deleure being an S1 racer cannot feel any of that. Some of the cars have frantic feedback...

Torque steer? That's not a vibration, is it? I can feel feedback in my wheel, no problem... But none of it is actually a vibration like he seems to want.

You are all completely wrong when you think I can't play it or say anything about it just because I don't have the license. I thought you had read what I said about it.

I'm only trying to read this thread, but it's difficult sometimes.

BTW, Victor answered some of my questions, but I think that the most important thing is that he gets my main point (or I hope so).

I don't really understand the discussion. No one forced anyone to pay and this is what you get for your money. The issues are known. It will probably get better but you don't have to believe that. Take it or leave it. As simple as that.

Quote from Nick_ll :

Here in Canada, LFS costs 83% of a full game for a 66% finished product: FACT.

[..]

And you can't ask me how many games will be as complete as LFS WILL BE when it reaches S3 because you don't know. There are titles like NetKar Pro and First Racing (maybe even GP Lengends if a miracle happens) that might get released in the meantime, and then you don't know what will happen with LFS.

[...]

The fanboys will say what is released is awesome anyways, no matter what is done. You don't need to gain those customers they are already hooked and don't plan to move. What you want is to get more customers, so on that note, the language patches were a good move.

Quote from Delerue :

I'm doing what the fans don't do: tell the problems, without fear or something like that. Thanks for you cooperation, and don't lose your mind, man. You have an image to be uphold.

look u worthless piece of troll shit:
who da **** are u to think u know how the devs react to critics? you aint a critic. a critic supposedly understands (almost to an empirical level) the medium u are critical about. at the very most u represent an opinion. and crap one at that.
this info wont enter your narrow autistic mind, but i can inform you loads of the names in credits screen are from people that spend their time pinpointing to much deeper degree of what your limited knowledge allows, the "whats wrong", " whats incomplete" etc, trying to understand why it is wrong and constructively and resource-fully trying to construct a critic. and i can tell you its a headache many times. and its an invisible work. if u cant feel it in the game progression over the years then u should do a lobotomy.
lfs was born on critical fluid. lfs itself is a garage coding statement against stupid gaming corp establishments. its community deved also to a certain degree. feedbacked to the max. who da **** are u, little monkey shithead, to come here and insult everyone, including the ones that most care and do for this game.
i dont have fear to say ANYTHING. nor should you. you are an **** and you havent been banned coz this game is different. i dont have mod rights but i hope they dont ban you. we allow ****s here. look at me. im spending my time speaking to one so that makes me one also. see? its great.
this game has for over 3 years been built inside the community and is a reflection of its community also.
this game has a to-do list just comin from me, that we could ALL except devs go to bahamas for 3 years and come back in 2010 and scawen would still be coding. now imagine other internal testers, own devs to-dos and community to-dos and bug/improvement reports.
**** off

please all calm down there's no reason for all of that, please!

Right on Kid.

Quote from Honey :

please all calm down there's no reason for all of that, please!

He's taking the pain for the DEVs. I'm relaxed.

well said kid!!! hes just trying to start ****! just look at his lfs world stats!! hardly even played it!! stick to your gtr or whatever!

Thx kid, you're the man to get my thoughts onto the screen In those times I sometimes feel a bit offended by people calling me a blind fanboy etc. and then I have exactly those thoughts in my mind...

Hmm..... I've waiting for my own personnal **** reply......considering I've driven 47 500 km in LFS so far you can't really tell me to go back to my GTR (which I've only ever played the demo of).

Quote from Delerue :

You are all completely wrong when you think I can't play it or say anything about it just because I don't have the license...

At least that explains why he "never" is online...

Mild post there, Kid.

Quote from Vykos69 :

Thx kid, you're the man to get my thoughts onto the screen In those times I sometimes feel a bit offended by people calling me a blind fanboy etc. and then I have exactly those thoughts in my mind...

and you are proud of it?

O_________O

...bah...
why can't people just talk? the thread started with wrong foot, but it does not mean that everyone must try to make it worse and worse, i personally dislike insults, please if you have to discuss do it, if you have to insult, please do it on another forum, i would like lfs forum to be the lfs forum, not a wild arena...please!

Mahlzeit.....

@Nick_II - Sometimes I feel like being an elephant because I seem to remember things that no one else 'wants' to remember.....reading your comments about the price of LFS made me think of a statement that the Devs postet before the release of S1:

Quote :

The content of the S2 and S3 stages, and the times when our many planned features will be added, are left undecided now. So much depends on the S1 release, our full focus is on making it as soon and as good as possible, we remain flexible about the future after that. For that reason we ask people to consider the S1 release as a product in itself when they are deciding to pay for it.

To me this makes perfect sense as I enjoyed S1 more than I enjoyed any other Computer or Console game since Frogger or Pong (GREAT GAMES BTW).....and same goes for S2.....

I payed 18€ for S1 and had fun with it for about 1 year and 8 months (17.07.03 - 05.04.05) - I consider S1 to be a full product fun-wise!

I payed 18€ for S2 and have lots of fun with it - in fact I have GTR, GTL and rFactor on my HDD but they just do not cut it for me - I consider S2 to be a full product fun-wise!

To me LFS S1 and LFS S2 were a bargain.....

Well.....that's just me

Quote :

I personally have absolutely no faith at all in the sounds in LFS getting any improvement at all because I don't remember any reply of the devs saying there will be work on it.

Well.....that's just you

CU, Sebastian

Delerue is a shame for our brazilian LFS comunity.I had a extensive experience against him 2 or 3 months ago in a brazilian forum.He is not a LFS racer. He plays cracked version of S2, he has his own taste about certains things, and I swear we don't know why he insist to flame foruns against LFS.All the things you said here we have said to him many many times, about the efforts of the devs, the WIP stage, the compatible price, but he always came with the same arguments that the game is old, the same bugs and blablabla.It will be a great act just block his account, turn back his s1 payment and lock any post he try.Believe me, he doesnt worth the trouble...Sorry for him.

Mahlzeit.....

I think this thread is huge fun.....can't take his posts seriously has he did not even give a single valid argument

I personally hugely enjoyed reading KiD's reaction (thanx for that dude ) and most other posts....and Nick_II seems to be a guy you can talk with.....just the opposit of Delerue.....even though Delerue always tries to form a union with him

Seriously.....no one projects Delerue's attitude to the Brazilian community in here.....You should just not care about him.....because we don't care about him

CU, Sebastian

PS: Of course this post only reflects the highly subjective and lightweight opinion of the author

Yeah ok but if we consider that statement from the devs from before S1 (which I did remember, yes (but apparently am the only one appart from you)), it makes us consider both S1 and S2 as separately complete products. In this case, both products are cheaper than other games available on the market today, so if I take into account that statement from Scawen (he was the one who originally posted it), I have indeed to agree that S2 does cost less than other games.
However, if we take that into account, we must also state that S2, in many respects is not up to par with current industry quality standards. The sounds are one thing, but also the wheels of many cars don't look ok. It's mostly details, nothing that makes it unplayable as Victor said it's not like "omg this sucks" but it could easily be better.
Heck I'd model new wheels for all cars, with bolts and all, taking into account a max polycount budget they give me, texture them and GIVE THEM FOR FREE because I like LFS and I like modeling, BUT THE DEVS DON'T WANT MY HELP!! I'd also give them racecar seats models or stuff like that if they wanted, just like Kid made the skies, and I believe I've already told them I'm willing to help, but they don't want it, so I'm just left with complaining about such things until they get updated in a couple years.

Edit: oh and no I won't form any union with him. He's got valid points in terms that LFS can be improved and I indeed don't like fanboys, but I don't like them because they always say everything is marvelous and therefore are not constructive. Delerue isn't constructive either in his criticism, just the other way around. Fanboys say LFS is marvelous and everything is perfect, Delerue says LFS sucks and everything is crap; neither are constructive and will make LFS better by any means.
As I said I'm here for a while, I just want LFS to be best and I don't believe telling the devs what they do is perfect will make that happen.