I would like to hear your explaination, if only so I can take the mickey when you bring specific 4x4 models into your sentences. It's not that much of an over-simplification at all.
Silly ban? Care to expand? Why was Ferrari usually quicker with the recent engine specs if it had less torque? Remember the days when people remembered that the Renault's corner exit and starting performance was more to do with rearward weight bias than outright engine torque?
It's no more stable now that it was, it's just that climate change, a natural phenomenon, takes places over thousands of years. And of course 'major celestial bodies' like the sun have more effect on global warning - without the sun it'd be pretty cold. Really, you do say some silly things whilst trying to look clever!
Clearly you haven't been doing the ice core research. I don't think you'll find the 'latest' is much different to the first, but as with any 'data' it's how you interpret it that differs. We've known for [at least]fifty years that ice-ages occur periodically, and that we're coming out of one. The latest research hasn't changed that opinion. In fact, I doubt you have read 'the latest research', unless you happen to read geology papers a lot, and even then it's the interpretation and not the raw data you'd see.
Not a certainty at all. If some models are correct global warming could trigger another ice age and cause massive temperature DROPS in the atmosphere. And besides, there is no such thing as 'scientific certainty', and that's a fact
Are we talking about truck racing, or have a missed a season of Diesel F1 cars somehow?
You can build torque into a petrol engine by using a longer stroke and smaller bore (amongst other things) without too much trouble but its a bitch getting a diesel engine to rev. Plus they smell bad, headgaskets are a PITA, bleeding the fuel system is a ballache, they make the oil go all yukky and they smoke after comparatively few miles.
The cleanest fuel (environmentally) for internal combustion is Propane (aka LPG), with lower toxic emissions accross the board. But its not suitable for use in smaller low-torque engines.
It's nice all of that diesel vs petrol stuff, and I'm on the petrolhead crow I'm afraid
But now I think of LFS and fun and I must say that a diesel would be actually nice, cause it would bring new challenges in long races and competition against equal-level petrol cars.
It seems that hard core racers don't want to change anything. They just want to do the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over again.
I was going to write something witty here but can't be bothered.
Let's see now... AUDI R10, check! VW toureg 2.5L turbodiesel dakar rally racer, check! 1.9 turbodiesel VW that goes 6000rpm, check! VW toureg V10 diesel that goes to 60mph in under around 8 seconds, check!, BMW 120ci (I think that's the right number, though you can easily check that out), check!.......
Note some here are RACE cars.
BTW, if car tech doesn't change, what else? Race drivers aren't going to change much, unless we're heading into mutant/cybernetic supermen??? No tech improvemnet, no change. Simple logic/ common sense. Of course, this won't compute for guys who enjoy the same old outdated boring and pointless/obsolete tech over and over and over...
And tristan should really visit a psychoanalyst/psychiatrist, this guy has a serious attitude problem. Seemed pretty ok for quite a while, and now he's back to his same old silly patterns.
And of course, major ice ages do come, but not before a major warming period, if the earth sticks to its usual pattern. Temperature rise can't simply be considered bad, as it negatively affects some but positively affects other areas. As on sun's influence, it's a multitude of factors, from sunspots to solar flare emmisions to proximity (thanks to the earth's nototriously wobbly orbit over geological history). And yes, I read the journals, not the tabloids.
Speaking of geology, do you know that the earth's magnetic field is also notoriously unstable? Check some records on magnetic north and you'll discover that its quie different from today's. In fact, there were times when north was south and vice-versa! BUT the worse times were when the poles are swapping aka transients). Imagine what could go wrong in this modern era when grow more hopelessly dependant on GPS, etc.
Audi R10 - only competative because of equivalency rules
Toureg Dakar car - Diesel required for torque and fuel economy on part throttle
A V10 that's slower than my 1.6 MX-5 to 60mph, wow, must be good
BMW 120ci isn't that much of a performance car, just a daily runabout.
But none would be better than a petrol engine of the same size, except perhaps the Dakar car
Tech does change, but diesel just has the wrong characteristics to make a decent performance car. Great for towing caravans, not so great for amusing race car drivers.
I'd love for you to expand on that. I stopped having a problem with you when you started posting sensible stuff, and stopped the CONSTANT 4WD references in every post. But now you've started making silly suggestions about diesels and geology.
Sunspots, Solar Flares and the eccentric orbit of Earth is not journal material (it probably was 100 years ago though). Read 'A Short History of Nearly Everything' and you'll find an American tourist has written a book that covers this, so it's hardly groundbreaking science.
Old news - I'd like to think that 99% of the worlds population have known about inverting poles for several years now. It's even been in Hollywood films, and therefore does not demonstrate that you have any special grasp on the topics of global warming. Sorry if that makes me sound like an arse, but I know 8 year olds who know about solar flares, inverting magnetic poles etc. If you were a pilot you'd know what calibrating your magnetic compass to 'true' north is something you do every day as the magnetic pole is that mobile. I think it's somewhere in Canada at the moment.
There were a few race only models of diesel BMWs based off road car chassis and engines, though I just can't seem to remember the codes right now... Just check it out.
Who said anything about special knowledge what? And dude, you still have some really weird issues with silly drivetrain and engine type irrational hatreds. I appreciate diesels, so do petrols, LPGs, gas turbines, etc. All drivetrains have their place, though 2wd cars are such a known quantity, with 4wWD being a relative latecomer that they've just begun to reap its full potential, especially for performance road car apps.. I'll still like them if they achieve their design goals though.
Silly suggestions? Hmmm..... Didn't know the AUDI QUATTRO was a silly suggestion..... No wonder tristan hates 4WDs so much. A bunch of macho men beaten by a... gasp... woman driver! No wonder you're pissed. BTW, I think I've just performeed some simple but remarkably good psychoanalysis.
Still remember that in the early 20th centuries that MANY other power plants were vastly superior to petrol otto cycle units we're dogmatically forced to acept as the only way to high performance. heck, there was an electric car that went 160mph in a land speed record! Way before computers and hybrids. (Silicon chip? What silicon chip? )
Conclusion? Any drivetrain and powerplant with fundamentally sound design could thrive and dominate given a chance to develop and reach their potential. As for FWDs whopping RWD asses on quite a few moderate to lower powered race series, it just goes to show that hating certain drivetrains is pure stupidity. BTW, FWDs rule gymkhanas, no contest.
The problem isn't me talking about 4WDs. On the other hand, it's all about your impossibly to reasonably justify hatred of certain types drivetrain and engine.
I'd rather you presented me with evidence, rather than asking me to do the research for you.
I don't hate different drivetrains, I just think they have their places. Diesels, FWD and 4WD are not for performance cars in my opinion, they are for every car cars and farmers.
You didn't mention the Quattro. Scroll up and look. I have no problem with women beating men, as long as it's on a level playing field. I don't like women doing 'girly' pressups, or having separate athletics events, unless they admit they aren't as good at them But there is no reason a women driver can't be as good as a male driver really, it's just that most women can barley operate the pedals Anyway, your remarkable psychoanalysis that I don't like 4WD cars because a woman once did well in one is a bit lame really don't you think. I can see why your not a practicing psychoanalyst.
Indeed. For years horses were deemed the best. But at the moment there isn't a decent alternative to the OTTO cycle engine for performance motor cars. That will change. Diesel and LPG won't be the replacements, except if politics 'forces' it to, on the bad science that diesel is somehow better for the environment...
Conclusion? You didn't write anything to draw conclusions from! Any drivetrain can dominate if developed? So, if you develop them all, how come all of them don't dominate? Wait, that's impossible! FWD's might beat the odd RWD in the odd race series where power is limited, but that's not because FWD is inherently better, more because a series' rules give FWD advantages that even RWD can't overcome... I don't hate certain drivetrains, I just find all FWD and 4WD cars extremely boring to drive, although granted some can make crap drivers seem like gods. I'd rather a car told me I was crap and threw me into a tree, rather than pretending it's me being amazing...
Trust me mate, there was a time when every post you wrote, even if it was about windscreen colours or something, would sing the praises of Evos and Imprezas.... on and on, with no regard for the topic or the discussion, you'd just bring 4WDs into the equation. I'm not the only one who noticed, but I am one of the few who answered back knowing that your basic jargon won't scare me or confuse me. You changed, began answered topics sensibly, but in this one you've started being daft again, hence my replies.
You accuse me of diesel fanboyism. Now you're acting like a complete petrolheaded dogmatist/propogandist? Beats me. More like ou refuse to accept anthing but petrol even if competitive and possibly superior overall alternative pops up. And a driving style that copes with nothing but RWD.
When was the last time I said FWD was superior overall? It's superior for packaging, economy, and some speciallized competitions, or is it just too hard to accept that RWDs are fallible?
And why would you compae the V10 Toureg to an mx-5? A sensible guy would have compared it to something more like a Range Rover/RR sport. What were you smoking? So I'm supposed to be the unsensible one....
And was i trying to confuse anyone? Didn't know my "jargon" that confusing.
Right... so a couple of, basically, clubman diesel race cars and you think that's enough to satisfy the argument that diesel is a better race car fuel than petrol?
No, I didn't. Can you point to where I said that?
No, I'm not refusing to accept it, but I am refusing to pretend that diesel is that alternative, because it isn't. I don't think that makes me a dogmatist nor a propogandist, and the term petrolhead is usually meant to mean 'car-nut', not a preference for one fuel type...
Of course they aren't infallible. But we are talking from a motorsport point of view, and packaging/economy have little place in that argument...
You were showing me a performance diesel, and I was just saying that it is slower to 60mph than a 1.6 four cylinder hairdressers car. Doesn't sound like a performance car to me. Maybe grannies would like a diesel Taureg, but I'm sure no one under the age of 75 would put one on their list of 'must have performance cars'.
Benson and Hedges, why?
And each post you make confirms it.
Ah, but the way you use it is obviously designed to impress. Throwing fancy words needlessly around, trying to make simple facts complicated... that's just my psychoanalysis of you.
Can you remember what the topic was about mate? I can, but I think you've moved off to another subject...
Edit: It's shown James as replying to this thread for 20 minutes now. Clearly not a fast typer
Interesting test on 2 similiarly weighed and identically powered (245hp, about what the TBO classes are close to). Done by people who could actually drive, of course, which makes it even more interesting.
Note the FWD was setup JUST like the FXO. BIG tires front and rear. The RWD was setup in classic FR fashion, with relatively narrow fronts and wider rears (typical RWD staggered set). Basically optimized for each drivetrain. The results are REALLY interesting and may not be what many RWDers might think. (I pretty much expected exactly the same results as they came up with ) The way LFS tracks are, no wonder the FXO is dominating.
Just one factor as to why I absolutely refuse to oversegregate and overclassify, simply condenming something just because of some personal preferences and opinions.
Fancy words? I was just trying to ensure precision for as well as the english language could provide. And it's one thing to simply tell the simple conclusion and another to understand what happens exactly. Like how roll bar induced roll stiffness isn't absolutely the same as that derived form stiff springs.
Anyway, anyone else got more on topic stuff to say? Actually, I'm kind of surprised that this thread has somehow revived itself after so many eons of LFS time. (Note: time counted in miliseconds. )
Not read it yet, other than the first page, but how do you know they can drive?
Of course you did, because you are amazing. I'll read it later, and reserve judgement for now. I also know the result, but only because it's you that posted it...
No, FANCY
The trouble is that you neither have precision, and nor do you use the English language or terminology (you use the Aussie form of English which is markedly different, and use backwards terminology ). Sometimes it's better to use simple words to get meanings across, especially when figures of speech, terminology, other language users and what have you are about. I've lost count of the times I thought you were right, only to realise that your understanding of a certain term means you are wrong.
You mean roll bar stiffness is different from spring stiffness? Well I never. I'm glad I realised that. Just think how rubbish cars would be if you hadn't realised that very simple fact... Next you'll be saying that springs and roll-bars work TOGETHER during roll conditions, and effect both static and transient conditions? Well f**k me, you ARE clever...
Erm, one of the few things you DO do is oversegregate and overclassify. And you have been condemning things based on opinion. Like all that geology stuff you pretended to know about, and the bullshit snippets of 'cleverness' that are, on vague inspection, not in the slightest bit clever or insightful... If that isn't opinion (because it certainly isn't fact), then I don't know what jelly is.
Nope, the FWD one had skinny tyres at the rear, and the RWD one had the trans on the back axle. Perhaps you should go read the complete article ... which funily enough has been on my website for a while now The author openly states that he is not a racecar driver, therefore you get an unbiased opinion of the differences.
Probably output, emissions, usage (low boiling points make using such fuels a bit of a pain)... I don't know enough about either to give a definite answer.
Diesel engines have the same breathing capability as petrol engines but are usually beefed up with weightier components due to the knocking nature, and very high compression, which is why they don't tend to rev very high, and the whole point of compression ignition is low down chug, so that's what they exploit. This is why they peak lower down IIRC.
You'll also still get the same turbo lag from a turbo diesel, as a similar designed turbo petrol. Most modern turbo cars have very minimal lag.
You're diesel usage will also increase with increased boost as otherwise the engine would make no more power.
I loved the R10 at Le Mans, and have nothing against TDI's but you're telling porkies
Yeah I didn't think of that. It mkes you wonder why they don't adjust "ignition timing" by injecting the fuel earlier? Like a slow injection as it's compressing up, or inject in stages or something?
I'm sure I heard something about the R10's engine and a revolutionary way of injecting fuel. I think it may inject in stages or something? Perhaps for this very purpose.
I have nothing against a 'token' Diesel car, although it would be there just for the sake of it. The game certainly doesn't need one.
Staged high pressure injection that is I believe, modern electronics now it is possible to do that as there is enough speed. But you can't adjust it as well at with ignition as fuel mixture still needs to be compressed and heated in process to get it detonated, not sure if it is air in most modern ones that is hot and fuel is injected to hot air so it detonates as it is injected, could be that way too, but still adjusting is more limited than in petrol engines, imo.
But does it really matter for LFS? Different engine braking, revving, engine inertia, fuel consumption and power curve, oh yes and sound, would not need much more?
I'm not sure if that's something feasible or not, I am not very studied on Diesels at all. I do know that the pressure fuel is injected at is very high, and I think that's due both to the timeframe is has to be injected (one precise point during a stroke vs the better portion of an entire stroke) and also the physical properties of Diesel fuel. It won't ignite properly until compression (and therefore heat) is high enough, and it has to be really fine atomization to work well IIRC (well, just like gasoline I guess....)
Anyone heard of diesel pilot injection? Fine, high perssure atomized sprays of fuel ignite relatively easliy. Pilot injection is mostly to reduce knock and clatter, but as revs go up it could also be used as a sort of pre-advance. BTW, I've not seen or worked on any diesels that inject fuel at TDC or latter. All have somewhere between 6 - 15 degrees (case dependant of course. Variable for today's eklectronicly controlled disels) advance. How else do you get the fuel to burn in time?
Fine atomization is of course always good for all ICEs. Maximizes power per unit mass of fuel. Current F-1 engines and latest FSIs and GDIs all run high pressure injection to more finely atomize fuel. Hence the trend fo higher pressures and even finer holes...
With modern piezoelectric injectors, control is better than ever. BTW, imagine all the nifty stuf one could achieve by manipulating fuel spray patterns too.
Well, at least some here admit they don't know diesels much, and I'm glad that some here might be happy to know more rather than just bashing one engine type over and over and over..... (gets old)
BTW, when the torque output band to the wheeels simply isn't there, large peak power values do no good, not without super-close ratios or CVT. Given 2 cars with very similiar specs and similiar peak power levels and a given track, the one with the flatter torque band wins, even if its something like say 245hp(peaky) vs 250hp(broad).
There are 3 ways to obtain power, both equally valid. One is via high rpm but small torque levels coupled with high revs. The other is via moderate to low revs but MASSSIVE torque. Ideally, it's with massive troque band AND relatively high revs, though yet to see that happen on too many reasonably priced cars. The torque engine might be heavier, but the torque band would easliy compensate for the fewer but stronger gears. The high rev, narrow powerband engine needs more close ratio but smaller, lighter and weaker gears. The final result is very dependant on the nature of corners encountered.
Durability wise, let's just say some people have trouble trying to break them (turbodiesels) in prooperly. They just don't rev and use them hard enough. In the hands of a short shifter (whilst avoiding knocking, of course), some thake up to 100,000km just to break in.
BTW tristan, some of us got more things to do than louninging around in this forum. Multitasking, anyone? When was the last time I started personally insulting this nutacase first anyway?
Just waiting for you to admit the same, rather than stating basic facts as though they are some sort of amazing technological secret.
But of course, you never bash anything. As long as it's a 4WD diesel you'll be happy. And bored.
This sentence doesn't make sense
Erm, gears won't change the power. If you have no torque, you'll have no power unless you have lots of revs. SO this sentence doesn't make sense either.
Yes, this is true. But you are making the mistake of even bothering to look at the power figures - they tell you nothing, other than roughly being able to guess a top speed... What you need to say is the one with the greatest area under the used part of the torque curve wins, taking gearing into account. If you do this, then no diesel yet conceived beats a petrol engine on the track in fair conditions.
I love how you say there are three ways, then only mention two. Nice. The two you do bother to mention are very very over simplified.
They same can be said for any engine. People pussy-foot around for 5000miles doing no more than 3000rpm, and then wonder why the piston rings never bed in....... To say poor break-ins are limited to turbodiesels is deluded and wrong.
Sorry I didn't reply earlier. I was out, firstly making parts for my F3 car, then I went out of a meal with some friends, then went to see the girlfriend, and have only been able to check the forum this morning. If that's lounging around then I obviously feel nothing but envy for you. Oh, and the insults, both from you and me, started a long time ago. The difference is that I don't pretend I haven't insulted you, whilst you are always trying to falsely make out that you are the angel in this 'relationship. As for multitasking, the fact that you have been bitten by this modern buzzword speaks volumes for how impressionable you are, and is why I suspect you jump on every 'new' technological bandwagon. Next you'll be saying that wind power is good for the environment, or that water-based paints are a good thing...
But there is no reason a women driver can't be as good as a male driver really, it's just that most women can barley operate the pedals 
