Quote from sinbad :

They aren't all perfectly flat in LFS, many of them give a thud-thud-thud if you go over them(the one into T1 proper at SOclassic for example), they have to be functional in both directions though, so they're not aggressive saw-tooth curbs/kerbs.

yes i know i was exaggerating a bit but it gets the point across

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

I agree on the points about the downforce cars however, and I 100% agree with Shotglass's observation that it's likely due to aero modelling at the moment.

lfs also has some additional issues with longitudinal forces (as also confirmed by 'the todd') which might or might not be entirely the cause of the strange diff behaviour so its hard to say if the lateral tyre behaviour is spot on therefore it might be that the tyres are a teesy bit too forgiving (they certainly are when applying thottle due to the longitudinal curves)
but whichever way you look at it they are magnitudes closer to a real tyre than in isi sims

Quote from Hyperactive :

This is nice. The basic thing with sim "community" has been this:

ISI guys like their stuff but aren't really interested about LFS.
Papy guys have GPL and nascar, but other sims aren't really worth anything. GPL is old and nascar is old too. iRacing looks nice but it is from teh devil.
LFS people have LFS. LFS is the best and nothing can touch it. ISI sims are looked down and laughed at. S3 will save the earth.
Nk pro guys just like their sims best but 20 people doesn't exactly make a crowd, so they have to use lesser sims. And it is soon to be developed!!!11

And now then there is Richard towler who drives nascar and GTRs and looks down on LFS because the cars look simple and the physics are just physics. It gets even funier when I say that I'm a LFS fanboi and agree with him

j/k

Oh, and then there is the RBR folks who think their rally sim is word from god. No one has told them it is the only rally game that tries to be a sim.

Make a 3-line version of this, so it's short enough to be put as signature

I agree with your POV Ball Bearing Turbo.

And my point wasn t to bash LFS since i think it s really good at most aspects.

I just hoped that most of the drifter kids in LFS doesn t think the reality is like LFS because like i said sooner,the reality is way more brutal (can t explain it very better because of my bad english but most of the real allday drivers will understand my point).

Quote from Shotglass :

lfs also has some additional issues with longitudinal forces (as also confirmed by 'the todd') which might or might not be entirely the cause of the strange diff behaviour so its hard to say if the lateral tyre behaviour is spot on therefore it might be that the tyres are a teesy bit too forgiving (they certainly are when applying thottle due to the longitudinal curves)
but whichever way you look at it they are magnitudes closer to a real tyre than in isi sims

Indeed, this has been known for ages. Particularly in power-on applications, as you alluded to. I never clued in this this could be a reason for the locked diff (especially) behaviour until Scawen mentioned it last week; but it makes perfect sense. I'm looking foward to it being addressed hopefully sometime relatively soon. Starts will be a blast, and there will be some fun involved in drag racing with false starts and proper longitudinal behaviour.

Quote from GHOSTRACER1 :

I agree with your POV Ball Bearing Turbo.

And my point wasn t to bash LFS since i think it s really good at most aspects.

I just hoped that most of the drifter kids in LFS doesn t think the reality is like LFS because like i said sooner,the reality is way more brutal (can t explain it very better because of my bad english but most of the real allday drivers will understand my point).

I think everyone here knows it's not perfect by any means, but the important aspects are better than any sim I can think of. I guess the best answer to the original question is simply one word: Priorities. What makes LFS better than other sims in my view is priorities. LFS happens to share my priorities when it comes to sims, and that why I like it the best.

I know what you mean about reality being more "brutal". If most of the drifters in LFS (not saying all because maybe some do it IRL? who knows?) tried in IRL it would probably scare the poopoo out of them, and their adrenaline would pump, heart would beat, and they'd likely smash the first time out. Give them some time with an unlimited budget and lots of wide open space, and they would probably learn to do it sooner IRL than someone who never did it in LFS, but it would still take time for sure.

Quote from Hyperactive :

It feels the most like you are actually driving a car

...on a pc

+1

Also that you can adjust the FOV, I feel claustrophobic inside other games cockpits.

s!

Why are Richard Towler so much against Live for Speed? Look at what that the traitor have done:

http://rtowler.gamefaction.com ... deos/mostrealisticsim.wmv

Quote from deggis :

Make a 3-line version of this, so it's short enough to be put as signature

That is unpossible

Quote from frankwer :

Why are Richard Towler so much against Live for Speed? Look at what that the traitor have done:

http://rtowler.gamefaction.com ... deos/mostrealisticsim.wmv

He's just mad because Biggie whoops his butt

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

Indeed, this has been known for ages. Particularly in power-on applications, as you alluded to. I never clued in this this could be a reason for the locked diff (especially) behaviour until Scawen mentioned it last week; but it makes perfect sense.

assuming that both the braking and the accel curve are too high past peak an explanaition could be that (and i think this is the todd take on how locked diffs can create oversteer or netral steer on fwds) the outside wheel is operating at or past peak and the inside wheel is braking past peak
obviously this will create a moment that turns the car through the corner => not the expected understeer
now if both curves are too high past peak the moment will be greater than it should
additionally there might be something wron in the load sensitivity that further amplifies this effect

Quote :

I'm looking foward to it being addressed hopefully sometime relatively soon. Starts will be a blast, and there will be some fun involved in drag racing with false starts and proper longitudinal behaviour.

ive got a faint hope well get false starts with the multiplayer patch

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

Give them some time with an unlimited budget and lots of wide open space, and they would probably learn to do it sooner IRL than someone who never did it in LFS, but it would still take time for sure.

one of the things which makes drifting so popular in lfs is that every real life technique works as expected or other way round you can train real life techniques in the sim

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

He's just mad because Biggie whoops his butt

unfortuatly for biggie, he's never spanked my wonderful ass! People pay for that. I made that as i was talking about this post and LFS with some ppl on IRC, and it was like talking to a wall, so i drove LFS into a wall and made the video, as i had been making some tiny videos to show some things in lfs already.

http://rtowler.gamefaction.com/media/videos/curbs.wmv

Just showing how 'easy' the car rides them.

http://rtowler.gamefaction.com/media/videos/lfsover.wmv

And some fun oversteer in the F1 car.

Regarding the oversteer video. Look at the driver's arms. Would you be able to do that IRL? I doubt it. With a sensitive enough controller, you'll be able to pull off a lot of "impossible" stunts like that.

Quote from Shotglass :

curbs in lfs arent serated ie theyre perfectly flat and thus give you about the same grip as a normal road surface

lateral tyre curves DONT drop off ... its a myth thats been around way way too long and its about time it got erradicated form the minds of sim player once and for all

the reason why df cars in lfs drift safely at speed (not while driving slowly) is probably mostly due to the aero physics being very incomplete and the cars not losing nearly enough df when theyre sideways

What? You sound like a Virgin talking about Sex. So have you ever braked hard in a Formula car? Or are you just talking out of your imaginations? The car gets unstable under heavy braking even IF YOU JUST HAVE TWO WHEELS ON A SMALL WHITE LINE you very likely off the track immediately, the way we can brake without problems in LFS while having two wheels on the curbs is ridiculous.

Quote from RichardTowler :

http://rtowler.gamefaction.com/media/videos/curbs.wmv

Just showing how 'easy' the car rides them.

In the previous page you were talking about the tracks lacks lots of things which I pretty much agree. In addition to the actual track design, I also think that much of the "soul" of the tracks is simply lost due the holes in the physics. Certain kind of corners are not simply driven like they should be. Best example are the chicanes (curbs) and "slow" corners in general, you don't need to really brake hard, fastest way is always to maneuver the car in a weird kind of oversteer and just ram over the curbs.

Quote from deggis :

Certain kind of corners are not simply driven like they should be. Best example are the chicanes (curbs) and "slow" corners in general, you don't need to really brake hard, fastest way is always to maneuver the car in a weird kind of oversteer and just ram over the curbs.

Perfectly said. I cringe when I see cars flying over chicanes on two wheels. You might get away with that once or twice, but it should beat the crap out of the car far more than it does right now.

As for the BF1 flight; it has nothing to do with car handling, and everyone knows the collision model hasn't been done, ever. The oversteer video is a combination of silly hand movement speed (somehow I doubt that was done with a comparable amount of wheel rotation, unless he has bionic arms) and poor downforce modelling under yaw.

Quote from Shotglass :

assuming that both the braking and the accel curve are too high past peak an explanaition could be that (and i think this is the todd take on how locked diffs can create oversteer or netral steer on fwds) the outside wheel is operating at or past peak and the inside wheel is braking past peak obviously this will create a moment that turns the car through the corner => not the expected understeer now if both curves are too high past peak the moment will be greater than it should additionally there might be something wron in the load sensitivity that further amplifies this effect

It may have more to do with the way lat/long grip is combined then, since the faulty longitudinal slip alone probably wouldn't be a problem. Slow motion tire footage from drag races shows considerable longitudinal slip before the tire loses any bite, and in fact it's necessary for a proper launch. LFSs problem seems to be with extreme situations. I doubt the longitudinal behaviour alone is responsible since the amount of slip we're talking about is pretty minimal whilt turning with a locked diff - in which case probably no longitudinal grip should be lost, so possibly the way it's combined is still to blame? (waits for Todd to give a dissertation)

Richard, just a question, how much real motorsport experience do you have? Whilst I do agree with you on many points, I'm almost sure that you've no idea what driving a sliding F1 car feels like. And I'm almost sure that you don't know enough about tyre physics and aerodynamics to make a good educated guess. If you do, please feel free to correct me, but otherwise you're taking your guesses a bit far. I see almost nothing wrong with the sliding F1 car's behaviour. That's not because I'm a blind fanboy either, I do have a fair share of research to back what I'm saying here, though I can't share it.

Wait wait!

Before richie da'noogle goes away I want to try the best LFS phrase we have got: "You just don't get LFS!"

Now, how did it go? Please, someone tell me :gnasher:

Hmm, what does this button do... omg, oversteer

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

It may have more to do with the way lat/long grip is combined then, since the faulty longitudinal slip alone probably wouldn't be a problem. Slow motion tire footage from drag races shows considerable longitudinal slip before the tire loses any bite, and in fact it's necessary for a proper launch. LFSs problem seems to be with extreme situations. I doubt the longitudinal behaviour alone is responsible since the amount of slip we're talking about is pretty minimal whilt turning with a locked diff - in which case probably no longitudinal grip should be lost, so possibly the way it's combined is still to blame? (waits for Todd to give a dissertation)

I'm unsure about the details of how the physics model works and why, but there is some funky behavior with the way tires react. In real life if the back end starts to get loose and you let off the throttle, the car has a tendency to snap back into line very quickly (and often, violently). This never really happens in LFS. The car always comes back fairly gently, and very rarely is there enough momentum when it does to spin you back the opposite way, as would happen in real life.

That being said, LFS is still the closest to reality that I've found. There are still a lot of shortcomings (clutch model, standing starts, etc), but the game is still fun, still requires skill, and still gives the best feeling of actually racing against other people.

Quote from Cue-Ball :

I'm unsure about the details of how the physics model works and why, but there is some funky behavior with the way tires react. In real life if the back end starts to get loose and you let off the throttle, the car has a tendency to snap back into line very quickly (and often, violently). This never really happens in LFS. The car always comes back fairly gently, and very rarely is there enough momentum when it does to spin you back the opposite way, as would happen in real life.

Do you mean in a relatively straight line or during a turn - and what phase of a turn, and how loaded is the car laterally?

I understand what you're saying but I've only had that happen under very specific circumstances in a real car - VERY heavy throttle while cornering nowhere even close to the limit of the car.

If you're cornering near the limit or beyond (as is the case most times in LFS), you're never going to suddenly gain enough grip by letting off the throttle to throw the car back to the inside of a turn... Not to mention the fact that by doing so, you've transferred weight back to the front of the car which could make things worse (ie, all that overcompensating you did that was useless when the front had less grip is now back to bite you in the rear, both figuritively and literally ) IE; unless you're telling the car to do that without meaning to - it's not going to magically fire it's rear end in the opposite direction unless you're overcorrecting.

Quote from George Kuyumji :

I’m wondering,..........

It is maybe true that the grip while drifting is a little bit to high. The grip in uneven tracks is maybe also a bit to high. So i agree what u say´d. But i don´t agree with everything what Richard say´d and i don´t like hes manner to offer hes opinion.

Quote from matze54564 :

It is maybe true that the grip while drifting is a little bit to high. The grip in uneven tracks is maybe also a bit to high. So i agree what u say´d. But i don´t agree with everything what Richard say´d and i don´t like hes manner to offer hes opinion.

uh i've been nothing but polite in this thread thx. l'll post some more thoughts tommorow.

Quote from matze54564 :

It is maybe true that the grip while drifting is a little bit to high. The grip in uneven tracks is maybe also a bit to high. So i agree what u say´d. But i don´t agree with everything what Richard say´d and i don´t like hes manner to offer hes opinion.

I've been following this thread closely, and honestly, matze, you're the only one whose manners are severely lacking. Richard might have some opinions many people around here don't agree with (which is to be expected), but he's certainly been voicing them in a very civilized manner.

I'm pretty sure that LFS does what basically no available sim has ever done: making driving if anything slightly too easy. That is quite a feat as anything from ISI and also the GTP mod for N2003* have at least got some tyre data from another planet, most likely connected to a physics engine with some dodgy aspects..

LFS also has its dodgy aspects, but at least it feeds fairly ok data into its engine. It is a long way off, imo, but I really respect it because at least Scawen seems to have found / used / thought up something that is closer to real tyres than just about any other thing we can drive. So for being so brave I respect it. I don't consider LFS to be very realistic, but I consider the 'rest' to be considerably worse.

The step that has still to be made in order for sims to get really really good is pretty large; if a company like iRacing really does pull it off, it can really leave the rest behind at considerable distance.

But I recall even N2003 wasn't as good as it could be. I remember when first racing it a tiny bit, Grant Reeve (papy dev at the time) said he was by far the fastest on road tracks but 'they' refused to alter the differential to something more realistic etc.. Even the most professional guys can and probably will make some wrong decisions.

Scawen deserves a lot of praise as he's been at it for so many years, showing no sign of giving up, and (slowly but surely) improves the realism. You can't say that for most 'small dev teams' (Nkpro, Drivers Republic for example..)



*I don't know about N2003 nascars, didn't really drive em..

Quote from Niels Heusinkveld :

You can't say that for most 'small dev teams' (Nkpro, Drivers Republic for example..)

Nearly offtopic but I wouldn't bring up DR in this context, at least not next to nKp, because it's not even a product yet

True, I was aiming more at the 'many months of total dissapearing of the dev' syndrome witnessed there.