I'm not sure that enforcing a rule that doesn't exist is going to make racing online any better. As many have said, blue flag just means there's a car approaching that you aren't fighting for position with.

Quote from duke_toaster :

DWB, the Wikipedia article is pretty much wrong on a lot of things. NASCAR and so-on are NOT sanctioned by the FIA.



Totally separate. Black flag for penalties, black and orange for a dangerous car

Appendix H, should you be bore ... h to read the whole thing

Hah, alright.

Most of the series I've followed for most of my life use the black flag for what the black and orange flag is used for in FIA-sanctioned leagues. In fact, I don't think I've ever seen a black & orange flag used.

...but since LFS is largely UK/EU-based I have no issue with using FIA flag rules.

Might be tricky to display a black and orange flag in text the way flags are currently displayed, though.

Its true blue flag is too early... however; it should be obeyed. Even if you are coming out of pits or for any reason. If you are behind, you know your going to be lapped without blue flags if you are paying attention to the map. Let the leaders thru. Personally; I think if you refuse to obey blue flags, you should be banned. Those people only cause accidents... n worse; take out the leader (which is unforgiveable).

I'd love to see black flags, though the yellow does seem to work quite well in game. In Yellows; if you pass under yellow; you should also get black flag.

If your cars totalled; you should Shft-S to pits rather than try to drive there; regardless if its your fault or not.

V

Well before you can enforce flag rules the entire comunity needs to agree on what each flag means and what the approate reaction to it is or this needs to be defined by the devs.

The blue flag is one of those that really has a lot of different meanings to different people. To some it means get out of the lapping drivers way, to other it means hey there is a lapping driver approaching, drive a predictable line and give them room. I do not think you are going to get everyone to agree as the comunity is split down the middle. Because of this defining a "Black" flag is going to be diffacult if it pretains to blue flags.

My personal take on this is that the blue flag is nothing more then an indication to a driver that lapping traffic is approaching, drive in a predicible manner and leave room. With that definition the lapping driver then is responcible to safely passing the laped car when safe to do so. Now under a system like this I would define the rule that if the laped driver blocks or un-nessasarily delays the lapping driver then they should recieve a black flag resulting on a drive through penalty.

The problem then become how does a program detect the intentional blocking or delay of a lapping driver? I do not think it can. I have raced for several laps flirting with a blue flag and not had a lapping driver get close enough to effect a pass. In this case I am not delaying the driver nor blocking him. Another thing to consider is that taffic and slower drivers are a very real part of racing. They can and do become part of a smart racers strategy.

A smart racer can use traffic to effectly block another driver they are racing for position with, at the same time if a you are racing for position and a lapping driver approaches and you slide over to allow them past its very easy for the driver you are in a position battle with the slip in behind the lapping driver and pass you. In which case allowing the lapping driver to pass cost you a position battle. This happened alot to me in F12k2, the AI would even use this technique and it sucks hard.

The point is that very carful though needs to be put in to this. The people making the decision need to look at alot of different perspectives and how each rule can be exploited or how it may effect every one in every situation. If done without enough care and though it may cause more problems then is solves.

Quote from Gimpster :

My personal take on this is that the blue flag is nothing more then an indication to a driver that lapping traffic is approaching, drive in a predicible manner and leave room. With that definition the lapping driver then is responcible to safely passing the laped car when safe to do so. Now under a system like this I would define the rule that if the laped driver blocks or un-nessasarily delays the lapping driver then they should recieve a black flag resulting on a drive through penalty.

This is how it should be. Why drivers who are overtaking a lapped driver thinks that a blue flag means they have complete right of way over anything else is an indication to me how self absorbed some people are.

Hey, if you're fast enough to be lapping folks, good for you. Don't think it gives you the right-of-way to the point that overtaken drivers have to bail off track for you.

And for those of you that shout BLUE FLAG! BLUE FLAG! and blow your horn maniacally, let me suggest to you where you can stuff that blue flag, wrapped around that horn.

Quote from Venus :

Its true blue flag is too early... however; it should be obeyed. Even if you are coming out of pits or for any reason. If you are behind, you know your going to be lapped without blue flags if you are paying attention to the map. Let the leaders thru. Personally; I think if you refuse to obey blue flags, you should be banned. Those people only cause accidents... n worse; take out the leader (which is unforgiveable).

This is an entirely false statement written as fact. Again, blue flag in LFS means nothing other than there is a car close behind you that is ahead of you in position. It has nothing to do with laptimes, nothing to do with speed, and nothing to do with someone being faster than another. It also has nothing to do with the racing skills of the person receiving the blue flag. People who don't "obey" the blue flag as you've stated there do not cause accidents and take out the leader. You say it as if ALL people receiving the blue flag are crashers. Again, if I or anyone else is the fastest car on the track and pit for any reason (talking normal pitstop during a race) and exit pitroad with the leaders approaching close behind, doesn't automatically mean I or any other faster racer is going to cause and accident. It means simply that the car close behind is a position ahead of you. It is not based on lap time but based on distance behind. The faster car pulling out of the pits will pull away from the blue flag. It may take a bit longer time due to maybe laptimes being the same with the faster driver on cold tires or something.

Until blue flags in LFS actually mean a faster car is behind you and ahead in position, this is simply a mute topic. There is nothing to do about it. I have driven in league races where someone else may have had an incident and done an extra pit or something. All I know is he drove for about 15 laps in front of me in clear view under the blue flag. I was blue flagging him, but I was definitely not faster. We were running similar laptimes and in no way would I want him to slow down and let me by if I wasn't catching up to him.

This is where "the lapping driver then is responsible for safely passing the lapped car when safe to do so" as Gimpster pointed out comes into play. In the situation I said about my league race experience there, I was not catching him and didn't have the opportunity to pass him. Therefore he was perfectly fine to continue his race ignoring the blue flag as it would only have slowed both of us down if he "obeyed" the flag. Had I been catching him, I would have not expected him to deviate anything, but would have made a pass. At that point, I would expect him to lift slightly perhaps, or run the next corner a bit wide leaving me the apex or whatever to allow the pass to happen and not "fight" for anything. Nothing more and nothing less. "Letting the lapping car by" simply means to allow the pass to happen unimpeded and without a fight.

In this same league race I've outlined above there, it was my first time league racing. It was my first time at many of the tracks. Therefore, as I lapped, my times of course improved. IIRC, eventually I did start to lap faster than that guy in front of me and when I caught up to him to where I could pass, he indeed did allow that pass in the proper manor, in that I made the pass just as I would have attempted to pass someone racing for position and he lifted a bit to make the pass as easy and incident free as possible. So there you have it. 15 laps of racing with a blue flag on his screen and when the time came that I caught and could pass, he allowed it.

With blue flag is important the way it is moved:

If it is simply a blue flag not moving, this does mean that is approacing a faster car, and with faster i mean with higher velocity, like when you are exiting pits. However on pit lanes in recent years has been implemented blue lights instead of flags.

A Waved blue flag instead mean that the car behind you is one or more lap in front of you, so you have to let it pass.


If you want to simulate correctly blue flag you need 3d marshals at sides of the tracks, imho.

reading "Waved Blue Flag" is not much immersive, neither simulative

Yeah I'm tired of people thinking a blue flag is a free ticket. Or shouting Blue flag every second. A blue flag does not mean the car being lapped has to pull over. Slam the brakes, drive off the track, etc to let you by. It means you aren't in the fight with them, so don't fight for position if they get by don't challenge it let them pass.

I'm sick of people scream blue flag on areas of the track there is no place to go slightly off line. Or they bump your back end when your trying to make a turn. Not waiting for the right spot to pass the lapped car. I've had people take me out when I was being lapped yet they blame me for there inpatient's for not waiting for a straight, or clear opening.

I've had it in a FOX race being lapped while I was fighting for position, the leader comes up on me I get a blue flag. I don't have any place to go. I'm trying to get up in to 4th place. Yet the leader, can't wait the 10-20 seconds for the straight away, dives in on me in one of the turns because he feels he is more important, hits my right side, I the turn not to hit him. But his bump slams me off track in to the wall. Taking me out of the race because they couldn't wait for a opening.. :/

Yes, the blue flag may come out to early, but...

1. Use your head! If your entering the track in the middle of the race, try and go on when theres no one around you. Dont join in and fight with the other guys when your not in a position to get anything else but last place result.
   
2. Use your head! If your in a race and you are being lapped by the lead cars, either go faster or get out of the way ASAP. You cant complain if your not fast enough not to be lapped, your just a pain in the ass at that point. Its your responsibility to not get in the way when being lapped.

Not that I support punting people off, but if Im lapping a car and he's not doing what he can to move, you got 3 corners before its go time. :bump:

Quote from DeadWolfBones :

Might be tricky to display a black and orange flag in text the way flags are currently displayed, though.

BLACK AND ORANGE FLAG
Optionally alternated with
DANGEROUS CAR PIT IN

1 or 2 people have asked what blue flags are, and a significant minority would be unsure about black with orange circle.

LFS is UK based, and MSA stuff uses FIA rules. Outside of the US, every major championship uses the FIA regulations. The ones in the US that aren't should.

For diagonally striped yellow/red flags (should we get engine oil OR microclimates in S3)

YELLOW AND RED FLAG
Optionally alternated with
BE CAREFUL SLIPPERY ROAD

And white flags should we have AI driven medical cars

Quote from duke_toaster :

And white flags should we have AI driven medical cars

You mean the white flag with a red cross?

Quote from DeadWolfBones :

You mean the white flag with a red cross?

That's for bikes. And Indycars.

Quote from FIA International Sporting Code, Appendix H, 4.1 E :

White flag : This flag should be waved and is used to indicate to the driver that there is a much slower vehicle on the sector of track controlled by that flag point.

No specific mention of ambulances/medical cars, but that is what's used.

Quote from Gunn :

Sounds cool, all I have to do is come up behind the slower driver and stay close but not overtake even if he makes way for me, as long as I deliberately don't overtake him he will be black flagged and then I can go on my merry way with him teleported to the pits.

Yes, anyone can abuse the rules in this way indeed.
I believe that implementing the flag rules including black flag, makes this sim more playable and enjoyable. But, for black flag, to do this I think some parameters have to be indicated and clearly understood.

I agree with most of you about the blue flag, it is indicates that one or more cars are approaching with higher velocity, BUT this does not mean that the car behind you WILL overtake you. It just informs that at some fraction of the time during your race, a car (which +1 or more laps) has gotten close and entered the "blue flag" distance. The distance may be stabilized (similar speed), increased or decreased.

So, I think, developers can use following parameters to determine black flag rules;
1. Distance
Constant approaching to the front car. Can be calculated and average of the decreasing distance with two car is identified, finally a critical distance constant, let's say for XFG, in 15-20 meters “first warning”may appear on front car's screen.

1.1 Time
Similar to "distance" parameter. The sim has its own time calculation with every sector already. This parameter always runs at the background, if the driver behind is ( +1 or more laps) closing the distance, it means the time gap is melting with every moment. Once again, same as distance, for XFG, let's say 0,3 second applies for “second warning”. Time and distance parameters surely depends on the traveling speed of both cars. This is also another physics equation that the implementation needs.

2. Race line
When the two above situations happen, front driver has already got two "warnings" (I will explain it later). He/she MUST leave the RACE LINE immediately, he/she may continue the lap without decreasing the speed or slam the brakes (out of the race line while overtaking takes place).


Scenario:
Well, I pit-out and am 1 lap behind other drivers, and leader reaches me, “blue flag” could be flashed in any time now on;
>Sim calculates above parameters and decides to show me a blue flag or not, if it does, blue flag comes with in 1 second or 100 mt distance (for XFG) or less (roughly).
>I get “first warning” because the distance between two cars is getting extremely close.
>I get second warning after some seconds or meters because I am still driving at the Race Line and slower than leader.
Now, two things can apply;
>I drive off the race line and then warnings will reset,
>I keep my position and get black flag instead of third "warning".
A moments later I get transferred to pit or spectators mode or penalized to drive-through.



There will be improvements on this scenario, let me say this is kind of a presumption. I made that to simplify the situation which is without race marshal observation, very complicated and a difficult task even in the real world.


And it may be better if the flags are shown on top/down middle of the screen and remain till the situation changes.
A separate warning message should be implemented and this will show that oncoming situation (as in 1 and 2).


The most critical things is clearing the racing line at the right moment and without causing any complication with other driver.
This rule can be misused or abused in time as “Gunn” said, but since not overtaking while you are +1 or more laps ahead of front car and going faster is pointless, this action has not any reasonable cause but maybe a very specific one.


And for the severely damaged cars, this situation can also be penalized by being transferred to pit.
Damage severity depends on the “driveability” of the car and also it is the work to be done by devs again. A message can inform the driver like “Car damaged” which is then car may transferred to pit. Or, to say it simply, the car will not move any more after some degree of damage.

Halo, I think you are misunderstanding the blue flag. You are NOT mandated to leave your line when shown the blue flag. However, you must let them through without trying to close the door on them or other defensive driving.

I have always been taught that when one car over takes another car it is always the responcibility of the overtaking driver to evict the pass in a clean and safe mannor. That means any contact or disruption of race is the overtaking drivers fault. The only condition put on the driver being over taken is to not block or unduely delay the over taking driver if they are under a blue flag.

If the driver being overtaken moves off the racing line or leaves extra room in the corner that is just being nice it is not required or expected of them though. Personaly in most cases I will take an outside line and brake a little early to allow the overtaking driver to oppertunity to slip inside and ahead under braking. This does require the overtaking driver to move inside for a pass attempt.

Quote from duke_toaster :

That's for bikes. And Indycars.

No specific mention of ambulances/medical cars, but that is what's used.

Yeah, I was just pulling your leg. I don't have to be told twice.

I'll probably always think in terms of US series flag rules, though.

Quote from Gimpster :

I have always been taught that when one car over takes another car it is always the responcibility of the overtaking driver to evict the pass in a clean and safe mannor. That means any contact or disruption of race is the overtaking drivers fault. The only condition put on the driver being over taken is to not block or unduely delay the over taking driver if they are under a blue flag.

If the driver being overtaken moves off the racing line or leaves extra room in the corner that is just being nice it is not required or expected of them though. Personaly in most cases I will take an outside line and brake a little early to allow the overtaking driver to oppertunity to slip inside and ahead under braking. This does require the overtaking driver to move inside for a pass attempt.

I agree, but of course you and I were raised on racing series where caution periods allow those at the tail end of the lead lap to get back into the race. Being lapped in F1 isn't such a big thing, because there's no chance of getting all that distance back.

We're still looking at a US-UK/EU gap here.

The only problem with blue flags i have is that when i crash or need new tyres i pit then other cars get a couple of laps ahead but then when i come out of the pits i overtake slower cars and i get shown a blue flag.

so if we use that idea i would be sent to spectate for overtaking slower cars

I was intended to go one step ahead about the blue flag rule in LFS.
Most of the people at this forum have an idea about the blue flag but it is obvious that this rule is not well known by majority (based on my experiences).
More specific and enforced rules will make the sim more serious.
You may think that this is just a game, but I suggest reconsider it, flash back to the moment that you are preparing to overtake blue flagged car, and the feelings of you, stressfully moments, you are completely unaware about what will happen. Could be a successive overtake or a disaster.

Current rule tells that “keep your line” and I suggested to change it to “leave the racing line while overtaking takes place or leave enough room to faster car”, faster cars are generally follows the race line so clearing the race line ASAP is most logical movement, thats all.

Current blue flag rule in LFS as follows. (wiki - "Driving Guides")

Blue Flag
A blue flag tells you that a car behind is in a higher position than you are. The action you will take depends on your situation. Let's examine the two likely situations where a blue flag will appear in Live For Speed.

• If you are being lapped by a faster car: The car behind you is consistently faster than you and has managed to travel one more lap than you have. He is about to overtake you and the blue flag is displayed to warn you of his presence. In this case you are hindering his progress and must allow him to pass you as soon as it is safe to do so (you can't be expected to yield while negotiating a chicane or high speed corner) Hold your line don't fight the other car, do not make any sudden movements left or right, ease off slightly and let him pass. He is a lap ahead of you and you are not fighting him for position. You must not hold him up.

• You are not being lapped by a faster car: The car behind you is in a higher position but is not consistently faster than you. Perhaps you had an earlier spin or have just made a pit stop or stopped to serve a penalty and that is why your rival has managed to creep up behind you as if he is about to lap you. As above, if you see a blue flag you must not hinder the progress of the car behind, if you are holding it up you should allow the other car to pass you as soon as possible. If you are not hindering its progress then get on with the job and leave it behind you.

Note: There is some controversy in real racing about exact interpretation of blue flag rules. Generally it is accepted that you hold your line and make no sudden or defensive moves, allowing the faster car to overtake you. You will earn respect from all drivers for acting sensibly and fairly when faced with a blue or yellow flag.
http://en.lfsmanual.net/wiki/Driving_Guides#Obeying_Flags

Quote :

Generally it is accepted that you hold your line and make no sudden or defensive moves, allowing the faster car to overtake you.

No mention of LEAVING your line. You do not have to leave your line, but when they are passing you cannot drive defensively.

IMHO only simple and fixed formulas can be automated. All sorts of things happen during a race in RL and there is no simple fixed formula for all these situations so race stewards are needed to make a decision. In online gaming things are even more unpredictable thus you can never hope to effectively organize an online race without human stewards. Maybe the more feasible way to implement race rules like flags is opening up more possibilities and providing more useful info to help the human race stewards do their thing. Of course this is only my opinion.

Quote from DeadWolfBones :

I agree, but of course you and I were raised on racing series where caution periods allow those at the tail end of the lead lap to get back into the race. Being lapped in F1 isn't such a big thing, because there's no chance of getting all that distance back.

We're still looking at a US-UK/EU gap here.

I was thinking more along the lines of endurance racing where there are multiple classes of cars on the track and the race is long enough that you will encounter traffic both faster and slower then you. A good driver that is faster then you will be able to effect a pass if you do not activly defend your position. If they can't then they do not deserver to pass you.

Quote from mrodgers :

This is an entirely false statement written as fact. Again, blue flag in LFS means nothing other than there is a car close behind you that is ahead of you in position. It has nothing to do with laptimes, nothing to do with speed, and nothing to do with someone being faster than

Really mrodgers; you really should read more closely before you spend all that time writing that message. Thats exactly what I said. Only an idiot would think blue flag, relates to speed lol... (maybe in amercia it does, but LFS does not follow american rules, it follows international ones). The only time you are going to be shown a blue flag, is when you are about to be lapped. Because; for that to happen, the ppl in front of you would have to go all the way around the track for you to get a blue flag.

Next time; pls, read the msg properly and don't just assume ppl are idiots

Ven