Quote from Woz :

I would love a server setting to lock settings, once the default setups are improved a little.

Simple solution. (Simple enough that i thought it went without saying.)

Let the "spec" racers run thier races. Offer flags to lock out changes on different tabs.

there are other adjustments you can make that make a difference
Timing for one. in this case the adjustment would be simplified (you can only adjust within the range that wont damage the engine) within this range it's possible to adjust your powerband. at one end you have a nice street car with a wide, but not too powerful powercurve that is very very forgiving vs the other end which makes a lot of power over a very narrow band and doesnt forgive at all (this example is a very extreme, you MIGHT gain 10 hp on most engines)

this is for the guys who want to go big. touring cars and GT cars (it might even allow those GTR cars to all run evenly by adjusting powerband to the course)

and i dont have anything agains Spec racers. Spec Miata class in the SCCA is one of the most competitve classes in the world. But on the other side of the coin, the Speed GT class isnt easy either.

Quote from KeiichiRX7 :

Simple solution. (Simple enough that i thought it went without saying.)

Let the "spec" racers run thier races. Offer flags to lock out changes on different tabs.

there are other adjustments you can make that make a difference
Timing for one. in this case the adjustment would be simplified (you can only adjust within the range that wont damage the engine) within this range it's possible to adjust your powerband. at one end you have a nice street car with a wide, but not too powerful powercurve that is very very forgiving vs the other end which makes a lot of power over a very narrow band and doesnt forgive at all (this example is a very extreme, you MIGHT gain 10 hp on most engines)

this is for the guys who want to go big. touring cars and GT cars (it might even allow those GTR cars to all run evenly by adjusting powerband to the course)

and i dont have anything agains Spec racers. Spec Miata class in the SCCA is one of the most competitve classes in the world. But on the other side of the coin, the Speed GT class isnt easy either.

I meant everyone has to use the same LFS default setup (Apart from steering lock and brake pressure)

Quote from Klutch :

I love the idea of fine tuning your engine, but as you said. The idiots that have no idea cry about it.

Actually, it's generally the idiots that know nothing about it that want it. The idiots that do know something about it realise that it's not as simple as adjusting the ignition timing to improve low down torque, and know that it won't add anything to LFS.

Not only has this been discussed many times, this isn't the greatest
newest idea of the century sorry, but it always come down to very
simple facts, tuning defeats the racing aspect of a game like LFS, it
always gets out of hands (yes, many proofs of that) and generally,
the kind of people who want to have a tuned car in a 'stock' server are
mostly disruptive in their behavior. To get frustrated and insult people
BECAUSE they don't think the same way even though they have many
reasons and facts to support their arguments, is simply childish not to
mention it shows a lack of proper arguments and a total disregard for
reality.

Once again, you guys CAN tweak now with apps like MecaniK and
LFSTweak. I don't see any problem there. Is this about showing off how
you can put a bigger number in an app and beat someone who won't ?!
Here's another fact, people complain about unequal performance between
STOCK cars in LFS ! Now add tuning...illepall How can someone choose to
ignore simple facts like these ?

As many have said, no one here is against tuning per say and most would
surely tune their own car given the money. This is not the point here.
Let's take our hands off our eyes and ears and try to understand the
reason why LFS isn't NFS.

/rant mode OFF

ill just sit there and watch people spin out attempt after attempt on LFS with their so called modded cars with 40 psi turbos squealing away and sparks flying from blown tires off of the rims....and run consistent lap times while it takes them 1 hour drifting all over the track until they reach their first lap of the track they try to go fast on...

Lmao

If there was highly detailed engine damage simulated, then the ability to adjust JUST spark and fuel maps on a STANDARD engine would be cool.
No "upgrades" or different engine specs, just literally the ability to set the engine up to make best use of the track, number of laps and fuel economy.
But for this to be done, things like knock/overheat/exhaust temp/addition fuel consumption/saving would need to be simulated so it's not an easy thing at all.

Saying it shouldn't be added because it would a disadvantage for people who don't care for engines isn't an argument. I don't care much for suspension tuning at the moment. Race_S all the way.
And if it was the other way around, and this was a thread requesting that adjustments to suspension be added, you'd have people saying the exact same thing; saying it would unbalance things too much.

So I'm for it so long as it's only timing and fuel you can adjust; which would have the same effect of damaging your engine as a one-off hotlap style suspension setup has on damaging your tyres in a real race. It would be cool for some engines to give, or lose power later on in the race through pushing them too hard.

most of the "road" cars are almost unrealistically quick as is anyway. I seem to remember one of those 0-100kmh script thingos saying that the XR GT Turbo hits 0-100 in high 3 second low 4 second mark. (on the road super tyres) Thats damn fast for any road car.

That said tho, i'm still in favour of being able to add aero parts (that actually have a function, not just show kits) and some engine tuning/parts (supercharging, intercoolers, fuel system mods, breathing system mods, forged internals, higher flowing heads, balanced internals, cams, adj cam timing. Also the ability to add rollcages (even tho chassis flex is NYI (as far as i know) strut braces, weight reduction kits and so forth.

I think it would also be interesting to see an engine dyno so you can see what sort of changes cam timing/ignition timing and so forth has on where the torque and power comes in.

But thats my ultimate dream of what LFS would be like, and i doubt it will happen As long as it stays as realistic as possible it's all good

Yes i know i should piss off and buy forza/forza 2/Gran Turismo something (yes i have these, but none of them is as realistic as LFS is)

The only what I want to say... Well, I know, it has been said million times, but... There's no suspension, gearbox, etc. set which could be called "the best". What's good for one driver doesn't need to be good for another. Each driver has a slightly different driving style. In contrast, the engine tuning AFAIK has for each track some set, which can be called "the best". And than, everyone will use it. So nobody gets new feature, just some kind of fun with tuning for a while. Then everybody anyway just use the best set...

Quote from DJMOZ :

Lmao

You actually went all the way in the search list to a topic that was exactly 1 year old, and you posted "Lmao"? Hmm, I bet not, having so much time to waste, I'd be crying for a life when posting such thing.

im all for, engine tweaking, meaning fuel, ignition timing, or modes if u will while racing, to save fuel, gain aditional power ect, I am totally against, ricing it up, meaning no turbine upgrades, new cams, pistons ect, the game is good cause the base is the same for everyone, start throning on turbos, and super dooper blow off valves is taking the level playing feildaway

As some may know I am more on the side of "tunning". its seems quite a few people have misconceptions of what "tunning" would look like
in lfs. I get the feeling that people imagine it would look something like NFS's when it should be noted that NFs' "tunning" is just as realistc as its suspension, tyre, etc simulation.

Your not going to have 1200HP XRT on 40psi going around a circuit track for any amount of time. in real there barriers to how much power you can make One example. Type of Fuel. Eg its impossible to have the above XRT running on pump gas but most likely possible on nitro methane.

the idea that you can tune now with tweak is weak because the changes you make are not realistic.

Alot of people say it won't add anything again i disagree. It should be noted that simulation is trying to emulate reality. and in reality there isn't a racing league in existence that does not have regulations. so to say that everyone is going to use the most powerful setup is again weak. i think it goes with out saying is any Engine modification implemented needs a way to be regulated online by server admin and such.

Deeper Game play experience
one advantage of Engine tunning is not necessarily strategy in racing but more and different classes of racing. you could have naturally aspirated XRT and it could be a different experience to what is currently implemented.

Could balance game play.
Next thing nay sayers are probably saying is well that kills pickup races. no one is going to want to agree on regulations. and that sorta stuff happens alot in real life. answer to that would be Standards. Example STCC league could have their own standard. Advantage of that is STCC founders could balance out the current imbalance between the cars used.
%and just because i know someone is thinking its gonna be hard to keep track different regulations. a template system could be implemented so that once loaded its impossible to adjust beyond or below regulation.

people also seem to think there is a best engine setup, and preference have nothing to do with it. doesn't seem crazy to me to see someone creating a car with a excellent top end. one could be fast on the straight away and slower else where. with some driving skill one might be able fend off anyone any attacks in slower area. that seems like a strategy to me, i would not mind trying giving a situation. (that was off the top of my head)

Adding a full blown engine simulation it would be easy to implement a engine damage, better sounds, Real time back fire and exhaust fumes, and most things associated with the engine.

Simulation and complexity go hand in hand in my mind.

Only down side is LFS community size can't support any of this. though i do make the argument that it would bring in alot of people From GT, Forza, Drag racing fans.

Quote from lalathegreat :

people also seem to think there is a best engine setup, and preference have nothing to do with it. doesn't seem crazy to me to see someone creating a car with a excellent top end. one could be fast on the straight away and slower else where. with some driving skill one might be able fend off anyone any attacks in slower area. that seems like a strategy to me, i would not mind trying giving a situation. (that was off the top of my head)

Yeah, but cars have more than one gear (they're adjustable, too).

Just pretend the cars are already tuned, and we're using the devs' standard--cause they are, and we are.

AndthisthreadisoverayearoldGOSH!

Nice bump DJMOZ. 12 months later and all you've got is "lmao"? Stellar argument. ROFL.

lala, much as you present your argument well (you've obviously thought about it a lot) I think your last paragraph is pretty close to the truth - although I'd say it's more a matter of the size of the LFS development team and what those two can accomplish in a given time rather than the size of the community. They'd need considerably more people to simulate an entire engine and all its components and all their interactions, let alone to then be able to add parts to it. I think the whole tuning concept isn't bad in theory, but in practise would be fraught with danger with regard to realism and how people view the accuracy of what was included. It's complex enough now, when a difference of opinion about something relatively simple like, for example, tyre deformation can go on for pages and pages. Imagine the argument when turbos, superchargers, exhaust modifications, dump valves, timing changes et al are added, or at least opened up for serious discussion. The mere discussion over whether to include tuning at all always ends up going for ages - imagine the epic threads that would arise over what to include, how to include it, what cars to leave alone and what cars to open up for modding. Again, it's not a bad idea, just one I think not many people want that badly and it's also something that would take quite a lot of time and effort (start playing broken record about small dev-team size here).

As for bringing in Gran Turismo and Forza fans, they'll be on a pretty steep learning curve coming from arcade games to LFS. You wouldn't want to make it too hard on them by implementing realistic tuning (i.e. a more complex system than "buy it, apply it, go win next prize car and complete 2 more percent of the game")

Finally, just so you know, it's "tuning" with one "n" :up: It's pronounced "chooning", but only in Australia

I think you hit the nail on the head with that one, Hankstar.

But although the date of DJMOZ's post is earliest, the post number isn't (wtf?) so, uh... well, I hate to point fingers, but it looks like Turbocharge bumped it and DJMOZ is laughing at him.

wark, I think your insta-web is broked

Quote from Hankstar :

wark, I think your insta-web is broked

GOOD GOD, I didn't see the year. :doh:

Turbocharge 9th April 2006, 03:22 Post #81
DJMOZ 8th April 2007, 20:00 Post #82

The least he could have done was wait 8 more hours!

P.S. wtf BAN! castration!! ... double castration!

i think i how difficult and how long implementing it would take would be dependent on how deep of a simulation u go. i started writing one couple months back but quit when i reinstalled windows and forgot to back it up.

Quote :

As for bringing in Gran Turismo and Forza fans, they'll be on a pretty steep learning curve coming from arcade games to LFS. You wouldn't want to make it too hard on them by implementing realistic tuning (i.e. a more complex system than "buy it, apply it, go win next prize car and complete 2 more percent of the game")

not everyone on GT or forza is car retarded. i always felt when creating a sim should cater to reality & practicality above all.

Quote from RMachucaA :

what good is a 10000000 HP engine if you cant setup the car to deliver proper grip to use it? hence drifting became an excuse for that :P.

Oh man, I gotta pick you up on that.

I've competed in real drift championships for a few years and I can tell you now that drifters know a heck of a lot about suspension setup, infact more so than engine tuning. Ask any mature/professional drifter and he'll know by heart the geometery of his car and what tyre pressure's he'll use for different track conditions.

With respects to the power reference, yes a lot of drift cars have large power outputs. But when you are trying to unstick a set of 285 tyres at 120mph in an instant, it helps to have some power on tap. A drift engine actually isn't just about power, it's about delivery. A big turbo engine which shoves 800hp in a very short powerband, with huge lag and poor balance is not the goal. Most drift engine's i've seen built have been a good balance of power, response and reliability.

I should also add my comments on topic

I think something which balances fuel and engine is a good idea. I like the idea of a boost button which can be used, this made for some amazing races in F1 with people trying to figure out fuel versus use of boost. Or even having a selection of two engines, one with better low down torque and one with better top end hp, this could be implemented in a way which would allow a car like the FBM to be balanced for different types of circuit based on engine selection.

*** C&P ALERT *** C&P ALERT *** C&P ALERT ***

Modifying the cars is pointless. Eventually, people would work out the ideal setup for each track and car and everyone would use it. Look at the number of people who use Inferno setups if you need proof that it would happen.
Therefor you end up with a field of identical cars, and guess what? That's exactly what we already have.

So how about you just drive the cars you have and I dunno, bang a metal trash can lid with your face to simulate the noise of a pointless "masseev zorst!!1111"

*** C&P END *** C&P END *** C&P END ***

Man I love having that quote available. Means I don't need to type it every time

The thing for me I would really like to see in future versions is the ability to pick different style "rims" or "wheels". I see a lot of people bad mouthing the "tuner" aspect, as this is a very realistic racing simulator. I agree that the races should be kept even, but I don't see why you can't make a wheel the exact same dimensions on the outside, but just a different style. I'm all for keeping it equal, but I like to be able to change the look of my car as much as possible. I think personalization is a great feature in games that should be incorporated. What about things like window-tint, or a few different light styles, I don't see how this could be a problem for the purist driver, if you don't like it then you don't utilize it. Also, I would like to see an option returned for changing the speedometer to digital. I know there are mods available for some of these ideas, but I would feel more comfortable using them if they were stock in the game.

Preparing to be insulted,
Budman

Semi-epic bump

I actually agree with that aspect. As long as the wheel style doesn't have any effect on handling or performance I'd like to see the choice as well. So many people have made fantastic designs for them and it'd be nice to see some of them incorporated.

I wouldn't use them. But I don't want the sim diluted for the tastes of, err, people like you, and nor do I want Scawen's precious time taken up coding things for said, err, people like you. There are plenty of games that cater for people like you, and LFS does not need to be one of them.

Just because you wouldn't doesn't mean other people wouldn't either

Okay, window tinting might be pointless, but I still hold true to the custom wheels thing. It's not like every car in every race shares the same wheel design. And some shapes work better with paint jobs than others - this would be a way of finding one that matches.

Some people's Bespoke creations are fantastic. Maybe there could be a competition to get the best designs added to LFS. Minimise programming time and shut people up about custom content for five minutes

I haven't checked, at this might not be true anymore anyway, but I suspect that LFS at least used to involve the spoke design in the calculation of the moment of inertia for a wheel. So custom designs would affect the physics, and thus not be multiplayer compatible.