Scawen, I think you misunderstood that slightly.

What I think deggis is trying to say is that the handbrake should not automagically go off when you select first on the grid.

ATM starts go like this:
Handbrake automatically on.
Rev engine
Engage 1st & GO! (at this point the handbrake goes off automagically)

I think Deggis means:
Handbrake automatically on.
Rev engine
Engage 1st, drop handbrake and GO!

So it isn't necessarily an axis handbrake, but merely toggling it off with a button at the start. Just like setting off in a car in real life.

One thing i have noticed in the new patch is when you enter Shift+U it runs really slow, 2 - 5 fps, i have 2 copies of lfs on my machines V8 and W9.

V8 - Shift+U works lovley and smooth with 9 players on
W9 - Shift+U was nasty, but it did have a full server, but everything else ran fine, very smooth over 80fps everywere.. it was only in shift+u it ran choppy.

Quote from mrbogeyman :

Scawen, I think you misunderstood that slightly.

I was just taking the piss a little really for fun. My real point was it's pointless because on most tracks you don't need it. It would really just put everyone off the demo, because at Blackwood you need that handbrake. It would just be too complicated without the auto handbrake and I don't see any need to remove it, not at this stage anyway, it wouldn't help with fun in any way and would be just going too far to realism. It would be a bit like saying you should have to change your own spark plugs with a virtual spanner controlled by the mouse, and and South City should be a full city simulation where you have to work in South City Bank or MacDowell's hamburgers to earn enough credits to buy your racing car, that kind of thing. Somewhere reality must stop to make a sim that is usable and enjoyable.

I think a good idea for a small addon for the start would be a choice of how the lights came on (set in the options menu). So instead of the countdown, you could have:

All red > All Green
or
All red > Out

Maybe I'm being a bit of a pedant about this, but it adds a bit of flavour now that we have the clutch/false start. To have the lights come on and then change to green in less than 3 seconds would be a real reaction tester, rather than waiting for them all to come on and change.

I've got to say that I'm using the drag strip more than ever now to practice getting away promptly without wheelspin. Thank you to the developers.

Quote from Scawen :

I was just taking the piss a little really for fun. My real point was it's pointless because on most tracks you don't need it. It would really just put everyone off the demo, because at Blackwood you need that handbrake. It would just be too complicated without the auto handbrake and I don't see any need to remove it, not at this stage anyway, it wouldn't help with fun in any way and would be just going too far to realism.

Imho, it is a small part of realism that you need to keep the car steady when you trying to get the car moving from standstill on up/downhill. There is the possibility that the starting handbrake could be toggleable on/off. With off you would have to manually apply brakes to prevent the car movement. Or just a simple feature that pressing the handbrake again when it is already applied would turn it off? Imho, complicated is quite an overstatement for such a simple and logical feature

Btw. is there a performance difference in starts whether the handbrake is on or off? It is posible to move the car just a bit so that the handbrake isn't ON anymore . This small difference (if there is one) could be a kind of small reward for using the realistic brakes on starts

EDIT: defenately makes a difference if you could stall the engine

Quote from Scawen :

It would be a bit like saying you should have to change your own spark plugs with a virtual spanner controlled by the mouse, and and South City should be a full city simulation where you have to work in South City Bank or MacDowell's hamburgers to earn enough credits to buy your racing car, that kind of thing. Somewhere reality must stop to make a sim that is usable and enjoyable.

Ever been to the CLC city driving servers? Give us pedestrians!

Quote from Scawen :

I was just taking the piss a little really for fun. My real point was it's pointless because on most tracks you don't need it. It would really just put everyone off the demo, because at Blackwood you need that handbrake. It would just be too complicated without the auto handbrake and I don't see any need to remove it, not at this stage anyway, it wouldn't help with fun in any way and would be just going too far to realism. It would be a bit like saying you should have to change your own spark plugs with a virtual spanner controlled by the mouse, and and South City should be a full city simulation where you have to work in South City Bank or MacDowell's hamburgers to earn enough credits to buy your racing car, that kind of thing. Somewhere reality must stop to make a sim that is usable and enjoyable.

well as for the spanners, there is a game version of the monster garage tv show and you have wrenches, welders, griders etc all controlled by the mouse

As an admin it´s impossible to start a kick-/banvote with mouse. Guests are able to. Commands /kick XXXX /ban XXXX 0 works fine as an admin. Double-checked with another Demoserver.

Bye,
(W9 -DEMO) DanishRacingProServer :bewarespa

Quote from mrbogeyman :

handbrake should not automagically go off when you select first on the grid.

It doesn't actually go off when selecting 1st gear... you need to apply some throttle also, which makes it even stranger.

Scawen:

I think you still didn't understand...? I do not want to remove the automatically toggled handbrake at the starts - my suggestion was about that you would have to untoggle it manually by pressing the handbrake button on the wheel or keyboard. You don't need home-made axis handbrakes for that purpose.

If you stop the car completely and press handbrake, it goes to toggled mode automatically which is nice. Then you put in 1st gear and apply some throttle and the handbrake goes off automatically... that part just doesn't make any sense.

Quote from Scawen :

My real point was it's pointless because on most tracks you don't need it. It would really just put everyone off the demo, because at Blackwood you need that handbrake.

I don't know did you say this because you didn't understand what I meant in the first place or what... but how would that put off? In flight sims you need to 100 things before you can even think about taking off. If untoggling a handbrake is too much in a driving sim for most of the players, I wonder will we ever get the to next level in realism in general.

Hello
I think "drive trough pits" instead of "30s" penalty when falstart would be better (if we want to make game more realistic)
30s would be good on 1 lap race.

I have to say I agree with Deggis - a sensible start sequence shouldn't really be a barrier to newbies.

Quote from Simpson :

Hello
I think "drive trough pits" instead of "30s" penalty when falstart would be better (if we want to make game more realistic)
30s would be good on 1 lap race.

+1

This is a very sensible suggestion

Yep i agree completely, it would make more sense and be more realistic if you had to manually "put down" the handbrake. This a serious racing simulator after all, and every bit of realism that could be implemented is good, whil maintaining that small bit of "arcade" because of the 2 pedal and no "H" shifter hardwers that most people use..

Quote from Scawen :

The delay between the last red and the green is randomised, it is not the same each time (as stated in the change log).

Hmm...I guess I didn't see that in the change log. Sorry. Can you comment on what the variation of start times is? I ask because we had several race last night and it seemed as if the time between the last red and green was very similar. Perhaps a system that would give you a random 1,2,3,4, or 5 seconds between red and green lights instead of what is maybe tenths different?

EDIT: I see the change log line now...I guess I associated that with the difference in time between appearing on the grid and the start of the light sequence that was done a while back for lag reasons. Sorry for that!

Quote from tristancliffe :

Name one situation in a car simulation where resetting is required that might be realistic, other than rallying where spectators can right the car on some occasions.

ALMS - The North American 12 hour Endurance series - They dont right the car - but the marshalls will push a car out of the gravel - or if stuck in a verge - and allow the cars to return to pits or continue racing, without penalty.

Le Man - Same Scenario

Thats 2!

Quote from Scawen :

Somewhere reality must stop to make a sim that is usable and enjoyable.

I second that

Quote from Simpson :

Hello
I think "drive trough pits" instead of "30s" penalty when falstart would be better (if we want to make game more realistic)
30s would be good on 1 lap race.

afaik already there... you just need a race with more than 3 laps...

Quote from Chaos :

afaik already there... you just need a race with more than 3 laps...

Yeap, sorry for confusion. Didn't notice it.
3 laps or less -> 30s
4 laps or more -> drive trough pits

I think I agree with the handbrake suggestion.

Everyone should start with the handbrake on, preventing rolling down that could happen because lag and such and the fact that you just appear to the grid.

Then you would hold down the handbrake button and once it gets released you would be off.

That would be safe and logical I think.


But I can understand Scawen's opinion that starting should be simple, but for the more realistic feeling I think many here would rather have the more complicated way. I'm sure that the full potential of the more complicated starting would show its full potential once the clutch and engine models are complete. It could cause some havoc though, so...dunno about that fun side then anymore.

If you want to read more about everything that has been discussed before on resets, search in the improvement suggestions forum.
Here is my contribution and a good thread on the topic
http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=156616#post156616

Second item:

I kept getting many Yellow Flag warnings when racing offline with the 15 AI cars. The cars were not off track nor spinning. It was very odd. Every few seconds I would get a yellow flag warning, or multiple ones that lasted for a number of seconds, yet like I said before, no AI car actually crashed. Could it be that just small body contact like the AI's seem to incessantly do could cause this?

I don't have the replay, but I think it will be easy to duplicate if necessary.

Well, yellow flag means "caution, obstacle ahead". No wonder you get them all the time when the AI is on the track

Quote from Scawen :

Somewhere reality must stop to make a sim that is usable and enjoyable.

I would rather have a sim that's completely and utterly unusable and extremely unenjoyable!

With respect to the patch - beautiful work Scawen.

- I agree that much greater variation between the last red light and the green light would be better.

- It's now possible to do a burnout in place before the light turns green at the dragstrip (or anywhere), but pushing the car foward a little bit doesn't give a penalty. I think the tolerance is too great. ... (side note: The drag strip could be really popular if the car started back in the waterbox (obviously even sans water at this point), and was required to pull up to the lights (so you could do a proper burnout). On screen indicators would simply indicate when you're in postion, and the tree sequence would start when both cars are in position).

- Would having to use your brakes manually on start be an idea to think about? Having the grid frozen for 3 seconds with a message indicating that the race will begin, so get your ass ready (e.g., apply the brake and do what you need to do) etc. would perhaps work instead of the handbrake? Just a thought, but maybe it is better the way it is. It would feel better to have to use the brakes though, IMO.

Quote from deggis :

If you stop the car completely and press handbrake, it goes to toggled mode automatically which is nice. Then you put in 1st gear and apply some throttle and the handbrake goes off automatically... that part just doesn't make any sense.

+1

And i said it in an other thread before, i need to toggle my throttle, because my throttle-finger hurt like hell in a oval-server.

Just for CLC:
It would be nice to toggle the throttle in 50% or 80 % and so far, or a little Cruise control will be very nice. Not like the pit-limiter, it must be able to setup the speed and the car must brake automatically if it go to fast down the hill. That will be nice for cruising-servers. Furthermore is needed to toggle the police- and music-horn and the lights.

Something about mouse steering (warning, off topic):
If you use the mouse for steering, and wont type a message, the steering wheel go in straight position. I see no sense in this feature, because so is it impossible to type while driving with mouse-steering. Steering should be frozen in last position while typing, or if it possible just kept enabled. If you with mouse steering enable the connection list, the steering should be frozen (not straight and not enabled). Then is it possible to click fast for kick/ban/send setup/playername while driving without ramming the right side wall. For the last suggestion must be made another connection list view beside the existing view, to watch it before the steering go frozen. Because it bring nothing when steering go frozen and i must just search a player-name in connection list , this need to much time and i go then for ramming the left side wall. I guess, i should put this text in the suggestions-forum because its off topic.

Quote from Scawen :

Somewhere reality must stop to make a sim that is usable and enjoyable.

I have to say that I totally agree with Scawen here. To have to manually release handbrake would complicate things a bit, making LFS even more inaccessible to newbies.

Imo, manual handbrake is like manual clutch: it's fun only if you have the right hardware, whether it is a clutch pedal or an analog handbrake.
Where is the realism in releasing the handbrake with a button ?

Quote from Smurfen :

WARNING: Noob question
what is Added preload setting to clutch pack differentials?

my understanding is that preload is the amount of friction between the two power paths through the differential under zero torque. you can think of it as a "minimum lock" whereas the power and coast settings are "maximum lock" values.

as you load up the diff (by accelerating out of a corner, or decelerating into a corner) the amount of friction will build up from the preload amount until it reaches the maximum locking factor. the higher the preload, the faster the locking comes on. if set too low, it will act like an open diff and allow considerable slip to occur before it locks up. if set too high, it will act more like a fully locked diff, and wont slip enough, causing understeer. set just right, you will get a smooth transition between coast/unloaded/power conditions.

Quote from PeteRichardson :

I think a good idea for a small addon for the start would be a choice of how the lights came on (set in the options menu). So instead of the countdown, you could have:

All red > All Green
or
All red > Out

I think this is quite a good idea. Though, I don't think it really even needs to be an option. Just make this the default behavior:

1) All lights off (get ready to race)
2) All red lights on (race will start in 3-7 seconds)
3) Red lights off, green lights on (go!)

This will prevent people trying to anticipate the lights, and will also be quite obvious that the race is about to start (once the red lights turn on). I believe this is how most race series do it in real life.