Now this is NOT a feature request, I simply wanted to talk about the new system and what everyone's thoughts are on this. Feel free to ignore this scawen, if anything good comes out of it it'll get reposted be sure.

Edit: I'm ALSO aware that there is a thread already open on ballast but this is not about discussing weight balancing.

I just needed some clarification on how the current system actually works, as I'm a bit confused. I, and others I've talked to online, expected it to work a little different.

So, from what I can gather, it's a voluntary system integrated into setup files. Some cars have some hard-coded into them for global balancing, but besides that it's all voluntary. Which makes it pretty much useless for pickup races (public servers) but useful for leagues that have admins to check that each racer's handicaps are in check. That's a pretty niche group of players right there on the grand scale of LFS.

The first thing I did when I installed the patch was create a public server. I was excited at the idea of having a few similar cars/classes that can be balanced to all fight for race wins. So, I go to the server options screen, enable the cars I wanted then... hmm... surely this is where I also set server-side handicaps for each car, right? Wrong. That would be neat, and perhaps it's planned, but it appears to work way different to that. From what I can tell, there's no way to enforce handicaps. Maybe there are commands / scripts to do it? I hope so.

Anyway, information is hard to come by on this topic, and I understand it's a test patch, but this has reignited my interest in LFS so I would love to be able to actually talk about it. Cheers.

argh.. I don't believe no one is at all interested in how to enforce your handicaps on a public server? It's completely pointless otherwise... does ANYONE have any info on this?

I would also like to know

Server side handicap enforcement is good and to certain degree realistic, I with you with that. But I didn't want to make a post that just says +1

i am rather surprised that this feature isn't there too.

as I said, it's a test patch, but I just wanted to know more about what we currently have. Is it intended to become a server enforced thing? or is it already possible?

Scawen already replied on this topic... You car should feel the same on every server and not like an other car depending from the server iirc.

Quote from GeForz :

Scawen already replied on this topic... You car should feel the same on every server and not like an other car depending from the server iirc.

I'm not sure you understand what I'm asking, because I really don't understand your reply ??

oh so scawen doesn't want your car to behave differently from serevr to server unless you tell it to...

in that case...


what's the POINT!?! :S


all you'd need is for it to be crystal clear that a class has been handicapped, right from the server browser to the car selection and/or player list

Wouldn't it make more sense to simply implement Class results? It'd avoid the need to change a car's behavior but would give you a reason to race something different - to aim for the class win. The current implementation is sitting on the fence :\

Well, i didnt dowload w9 patch to test it and i prolly will wait for official patch - but in fact i was expecting the ballast system to be partly on server side. I really dont mind that stcc servers have forced license system, thats the part of it (i cant really say i like it being still a copper ). It is the wish of server admin and thats it.

So i wouldnt mind server admins to put extra weight for specific car, unless it is clearly stated in the garage, on the start and on results list. I think there even could be a sticker thread or subforum in servers section at forum for examples for balancing cars for pecific combo.

And extra weight for spacific driver should be on that driver side only - this would be useful for leagues where individual setup can be checked, and no flame war would be aroused here or wherever for arbitrary server admin's decision.

Fair enough?

Just for clarification, as it seems to me there's still confusion and that there are different things mixed together here:

Currently there are two different handicap-systems.

Number One is what is usually referred to as global balancing. This means that the FXO and the XRT have a weight penalty and the FXO an additional intake restriction and FZR and XRR both have a weight penalty. These handicaps can not be changed server sided and this is an interims solution that Scawen implemented to meet the longtime requests for class balancing in a physically compatible patch. Again: This is not final. In an upcoming physically incompatible patch things will change again (so far it's confirmed that the FXO will get narrower tires and will put on weight).

Number two is the voluntary balancing system via setup changes. I think this is what the OP actually referred to. And just like him I would have thought that it was possible to apply intake restrictions and weight penalties server sided. But apparantly it isn't. Can people confirm this?

My take on the matter is that it should be possible to enforce server sided handicaps. Not only driver based for leagues (similiar to the WTCC system) but also track based for regular public servers and pick up races. Not only could you balance car classes track specific, you could even set up a server where f.e. XFG, XRG and RB4 could run competitively together (among others, XCNuse has created a nice setup for the RB4 that makes it more or less equal to XRG and XFG on BL, which is imho a nice addition because it could make for more variety in racing).

Just my 2c.

Agreed


... but with exception of driver specific handicup which i described in post above

plus ballancing system should be rather simple - weight XOR air intake restriction


btw. mods, merge this one with air intake thread maybe

as a Mid field driver, I like the idea, if i was a front runner, im not sure I would like the idea lol.

Quote from Linsen :

Just for clarification, as it seems to me there's still confusion

d'oh, that sounded like you were about to explain it all to me, until you state you also don't know why it isn't server side

I guess we'll just have to wait to see what happens, or until scawen sheds some (more) light on the matter.

Quote from Burnzoire :

d'oh, that sounded like you were about to explain it all to me, until you state you also don't know why it isn't server side

I guess we'll just have to wait to see what happens, or until scawen sheds some (more) light on the matter.

I just posted because some people were obviously talking about the global balancing system, which I thought was not what this thread was about. Sorry for getting your expectations up .

I would expect Scawen to implement a server sided balancing option sooner or later, though. Because forced handicaps and intake restriction would be pretty pointless if they can't be enforced. But that's just speculation. And like you said, we can only wait .

though apparently scawen has said somewhere that he doesnt' want car behavior to change from server to server involuntarily. I think that's fair enough if it happened without warning, but so long as drivers were clearly advised of the restrictions then it would work a charm.

But do we really want every single server admin to adjust this setting to his liking so we end up with 500 servers that have 80 different handicap settings?!

Even if you get a friendly note that car x has the handicap weight y and the intake restriction z on this very server.....it somehow scares me

Quote from DasBoeseC :

But do we really want every single server admin to adjust this setting to his liking so we end up with 500 servers that have 80 different handicap settings?!

Nope, we certainly don't want that. But I don't think it will happen either. After all, many server owners don't even bother to restrict their server to certain cars. I'd see this more as an opportunity to amend existing car classes. Like I said earlier, a restricted RB4 is a nice addition to the XFG and XRG. Or you could restrict XRG and XFG to run with the UF1 etc. Surely this is not necessary per se, but a nice addition. And of course Leagues that want to handicap individual racers also should be able to do that server sided for ease of use.

it could be done by allowing 'private' servers to force a system, as in order to know the password you should have agreed to the terms involved, your part of an organised group rather than a public server where you could randomly join.

Allowing the public servers to force handicaps isnt a bad idea, however im pretty sure that Scawen has said he doesnt care about this right now, the matter of the cars being unbalanced is its own problem and NOT one he wants solving by everyone coming up with their or answer to the problem.

Balancing will be done in due course, i get the impression handycaps were a mixture of being a short term answer to the problem and also the arrival of a worthwhile feature, however probably not for the way that the community is wanting to use it.

That along with what others have said seems to be the outlines of what its for, its not intended to balance classes out, so a server doesnt need to force weight onto a specific car. The balancing will be done globally when the time comes for this to be done (hopefully sooner rather than later) but the fact that some tweaking of certain cars has been done may be confusing the matter.

I just hope it gets done properly, I remember hearing that the testers would met up for 1+ hour races to test them for longer distance races, and ignoring changes made some time after Alpha was released, those GTR cars werent balanced for pick-up races (easily 99% of the races in LFS) or the organised ones, the tyre changes have magnified that too. Argue its Alpha, but i'd like to counter argue p*** poor testing. So hopefully when it comes to balancing everything properly it will be done so with more thought than was given to its Alpha release.

Quote from PaulC2K :

The balancing will be done globally when the time comes for this to be done (hopefully sooner rather than later) but the fact that some tweaking of certain cars has been done may be confusing the matter.

I just hope it gets done properly, I remember hearing that the testers would met up for 1+ hour races to test them for longer distance races,

to make things more confusing - what combos should betatesters test to tweak balancing? what tracks? what race lenght? the most popular?

I'm not convinced that beta testing of the changes is even required at all. Scawen has said that making global changes to the car is now pretty simple for him. So, it would seem that the best course of action is just to release the patch and let the community weigh in if a car is too fast or too slow. He can change it and the process starts all over. The game is still Alpha, and the patches can now download automatically, so there's little downside to doing this. The upside is that you get a LOT more people testing on a LOT more configurations, as well as having the people like STCC and MoE able to test the changes, if they are so inclined.

Edit: Something I do think would be interesting: Taking data from a lot of online races, or even hotlaps from LFSworld (once the changes are "official") and putting them into a format that makes it easy to see which cars are fastest on which tracks, and by how much. When we get to the point that each car is fastest on roughly one third of the tracks, we should be pretty darn close to being as balanced as possible (keeping in mind that easier to drive cars may need to be a bit slower, since there's less risk of driving them, and since they will close the gap if/when weather and poor road conditions are modeled).

Well, it should be a mix of short and long tracks, as well as mixed lengths etc

Im sure for the most part the testers were lapping round all tracks and holding much shorter races as is the norm for public racing, while doing longer events more organised rather than 2-3 people that happen to be around and fancy doing this. However with all that said, what was released was what we have as S2 Alpha, un-balanced cars in which some have stretched far beyond being competitive with others in the class. FZR is the only car in the GTR class, the others serve little purpose competitively because its has 2 key factors, acceleration & speed, its a bit of a handful but the fact that i HATE rwd cars with a passion, but could beat my FXR times by being uber careful just proved to me how wrong things are. The 1 downside is fuel consumption, its noticeable over endurance distances but the weight difference for it compared to the other 2 cars isnt significant in shorter races either.

TBO class is the same, FXO wins hands down (this has been so since S1), the same S1 that had grid spots where cars had 2 tyres down the train/tram lines at South City. Things like that frustraite me, i know its not easy to catch every single bug/problem but it sometimes makes me wonder.

Anyway, it needs input from the people testing it to step up and say this s__t just aint right, often additional new features will make stuff that worked perfect come all out of shape, and that has to be accepted, but it would be nice if continual effort was made to adjust matters like balancing. The only reason i see for not continously fiddling with balancing is consistancy and the HLVC charts.


Cue-Ball:
Agreed, with the power LFSW has available to it, it surely isnt that hard to draw a comparison chart and map out things using that data till its balanced. It does bring up the issue i mentioned of it d**king with the HLVC charts (not that i give a hoot) as personally i'd happily see it disabled for 3 months while such issues were resolved, its for everyones benefit.

I also hope lap times arent the single thing taken into account, currently the FXO is being weighed down, removing 10% surface contact and slowed down by restrictors n stuff, the fact that the RB4 which is by far and away the easiest of the 3 cars is currently waaay faster doesnt seem to be an issue, its lightning off the blocks and shoots past everyone on the grid (esp in S1 days) so i just hope thought goes beyond what each car can do from a flying lap.
I think many people would be happy to help even if it was just Test-Global balancing, something only effected in Test patches so everyone else could carry on if the so wished to. It needs a community effort, but most importantly it needs a Dev team willing to tinker, and it seems we finally have that for this (significant) issue at least.

Global balancing is a bad solution imo. An Rb4 might be slow compared to an FXO, so that gets extra weight, BUT, on a rally track the rb4 now has even more of an advantage. Even in less extreme circumstances like simply different road tracks give different results between car classes. West Hill to South City is very different.

The BEST solution is to leave it into the hands of the server hosts. If the host messes the balancing up, then it won't be popular.

As for notification, there should be a "handicaps" field in the server browser with a simple yes/no so the user knows to expect it. Then, when selecting a car with a handicap, you will get a message in light blue up the top of the screen when you exit the pits, exactly like the message you get when you have dirt tyres on a road track, or vice versa:

Warning: This car has the following handicaps: 1% intake, 20kg weight.