I've found myself playing the city maps quite a bit lately, mostly because that's what's running on the server when I join. I've been finding myself in some passing situations where I'm trying to pass, or getting passed and I'm not sure how defensive or offensive I should be in what situations. So I've been playing conservative just to be on the safe side.

I'm looking on this page under the "sporting code" at the overpassing rules...

http://licence.ukct.net/default.asp

Here's the question...

I get a good run down a straight away and achieve "significant overlap" at the turn in point. Lets say my front bumper is clearly at their front fender when I get on the brakes. Now, according to those rules I have "rights" to the corner. Does that mean I can apex, and track out all the way to the apron even if it means pinching the other driver off the track or into the wall? Do I need to slow down enough to give them room on the outside or do they need to yield and give me room?

The reason I ask is because when somebody makes this maneuver on me, I back off and let them pass because they have "significant overlap." But this never happens for me. The car I'm passing keeps pushing and sometimes I nudge into them coming out of the turn. So I've been gun shy and probably going through the turn slower than I should and losing the position again.

What are my rights in this situation? If I have significant overlap should I press to take the turn in the fastest way I can even if it means pinching the other car because they refused to yield?


I understand that this is a very basic question and maybe should be in another forum. But really I'm looking for the opinion of Becky or Sam or somebody who would be looking over a replay in the event that I or somebody else is reported due to a tangle in this situation.

If the car on the outside can stay on the outside (fully or just-about-fully alongside) by the exit then you haven't passed them and you can't push them off. If they've only got their nose stuck up alongside your rear wheels then they have no business being there and they should've backed off.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

If the car on the outside can stay on the outside (fully or just-about-fully alongside) by the exit then you haven't passed them and you can't push them off. If they've only got their nose stuck up alongside your rear wheels then they have no business being there and they should've backed off.

But how can you tell if you've passed them if you're trying to take the corner? It's hard to keep your eyes to the side while trying to pass and negotiate a corner all at the same time. I can look just before I turn in, but I can't look again until I'm through the corner.

Also, if that's true then what's the point of having the "significant overlap" rule? It seems meaningless because what you say seems to suggest that both cars have equal rights to the corner as long as the car on the outside can stay side by side with the inside car. At some point somebody has to yield. Which driver has to yield? The one on the inside with significant overlap or the one on the outside?

Here's my interpretation of the rule, and I do hope somebody important will either tell me I'm wrong (and why) or reinforce my interpretation and tell me I'm right...

If I have significant overlap, I have the rights in that corner and if contact is made beyond turn in with the car on the outside I am not at fault, it is the fault of the driver on the outside.

I will note that I'm asking here not because I feel that I've done anything wrong, but because I feel that I'm losing potential passing opportunities because I'm not asserting myself here. In the future I would like to gain these positions with the assurance that I am in the right in case a wreck occurs.

As far as I know, if you have significant overlap you have the right to the inside line through the corner, ie the car you are overtaking shouldn't swing into you while sticking religiously to the racing line.

While overtaking you must allow the car being overtaken room on the outside. ie don't run them off the road.

If you don't have significant overlap the car in front is allowed to swing out for the corner following the racing line, you should back off.

Quote from Mykl :

But how can you tell if you've passed them if you're trying to take the corner? It's hard to keep your eyes to the side while trying to pass and negotiate a corner all at the same time. I can look just before I turn in, but I can't look again until I'm through the corner.

Well then in that case I'd say if you've reason to believe the other car is still there, you'd be better off leaving room.

Quote from Mykl :

Also, if that's true then what's the point of having the "significant overlap" rule? It seems meaningless because what you say seems to suggest that both cars have equal rights to the corner as long as the car on the outside can stay side by side with the inside car. At some point somebody has to yield. Which driver has to yield? The one on the inside with significant overlap or the one on the outside?

Nobody has to yield. The rule relates to corner entry - if you have achieved significant overlap in the braking zone then the car on the outside has to leave you room on the inside. Similarly, if he's still on your outside by the corner exit then you'll have to leave him room. What else are you going to do - collide with him?

This situation shouldn't happen in slow or long corners because the inside line should give you enough of an advantage to drive clear infront. But if you drive too slowly on the inside and I can stay alongside you by the exit then I'm not backing off. I'm only going to back off if I can see that I've lost the position - this means I'm on the outside and I'm half a car's length or less alongside you.

ok, thanks for the clarification

That's the hardnut's perspective anyway. In reality I'd probably give up the position unless I'd raced with you a few times and got used to you. But I'd certainly never turn in on you at the corner entry if you were alongside and neither should anybody else.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

That's the hardnut's perspective anyway. In reality I'd probably give up the position unless I'd raced with you a few times and got used to you. But I'd certainly never turn in on you at the corner entry if you were alongside and neither should anybody else.

IMO for pickup races its better to yeld the postion than to force it. You don't kknow exactly how the other person is going to react.

However if this was a points race I would push as fast as I can while providing JUST enough room for the other person to manuver. Once you have the overlap your in control and can basically give as much or as little room you want no matter where on the track as long as you give a good line on entry for the person and don't cut them up.

Exits are different as in if you on the outside you can 'squeeze' them a bit by running away from the wall on exit. Be prepared for contact though for a good driver will not let down and will push back to gain that room back so they can have a decent run down the strait, which is effectively what your taking away from them by making them run the corner at not optimum angles.

Take care though as this can be considered blocking or running off the track, it's more a 'use at your own risk' type of manuver and cannot be used in all circumstances. I am not talking about pinning the driver onto the inside wall just off the apex, just a bit so you have the upper hand coming on the strait having upper hand in momentum and not them, thus preventing a potential pass.

I could be totally wrong in all this. I have never had any professional training in advanced race manuvering but if you use your head and good judgement you will be suprised what you can come up with =)

Often the ideal line through a corner (stating the obvious here) is a wide line in, sweeping tightly into the apex and wide out. In the scenario you're describing, it sounds like you're referring to people "divebombing" up the inside while a car is taking the above optimum line.

In these situations, I look to see at which point the outside person *committed* to the corner - i.e. has reduced speed enough to take the corner, and begun to turn in. If the driver on the inside hasn't achieved a significant overlap by that point, they aren't entitled to the corner. It usually ends in tears anyway, since they're both going for the same bit of asphalt, but I've found the law of averages generally leans on the guy on the inside being responsible for the collision. The divebombing mentality, where drivers are intent on leaning on the outside car to get around the corner, isn't good form, IMO.

Im gonna use Blackwood Forest GP here as it is the first track many of the newish drivers began racing.
T2-blackwood, the best example and probably the first place where most of us began making errors on apex entry/exit.


Just because your car is in a overlapping position abreast and in apex entry does not mean the "overlapped" driver must give way, or voluntaraly have to back-off just because you might have gotten your nose into the corner abit sharper. You must keep on your own line, first driver to go off their line and make contact is to blame.


The way I see it is if you keep your line through the apex, and if hopefully other drivers in close proximity can do the same, you'll be in for good, fast, clean and close racing

Quote from SamH :

Often the ideal line through a corner (stating the obvious here) is a wide line in, sweeping tightly into the apex and wide out. In the scenario you're describing, it sounds like you're referring to people "divebombing" up the inside while a car is taking the above optimum line.

In these situations, I look to see at which point the outside person *committed* to the corner - i.e. has reduced speed enough to take the corner, and begun to turn in. If the driver on the inside hasn't achieved a significant overlap by that point, they aren't entitled to the corner. It usually ends in tears anyway, since they're both going for the same bit of asphalt, but I've found the law of averages generally leans on the guy on the inside being responsible for the collision. The divebombing mentality, where drivers are intent on leaning on the outside car to get around the corner, isn't good form, IMO.

Well no... I don't mean divebombing at all. In my experience people who use that tactic are very easy to repass as they crash into the wall or go flying off the track.

What I mean is that you come out of a corner onto a long straight with more steam and you've got enough momentum for a passing maneuver at the next braking zone. You creep up along side and get side by side with them, braking slightly early to make up for the fact that you're inside and off the optimum line and can't carry as much speed.

The problem I tend to encounter is that the driver on the outside, even if they don't run into you mid corner when trying to keep the racing line, won't yield when you're drifting towards track out even when they don't have significant overlap and would rather just spin you and retake the position.

What I'm trying to figure out is this... exactly when is it wrong of me to come into contact with them in this situation, and when is it wrong of them to contact me?

Here's an even more specific question...

After a passing maneuver the driver I passed dove in and slammed into me trying to stay on the racing line, obviously he was at fault. This caused a bit of a scuffle and we ended up going side by side towards a chicane on the City course. I was on the inside. Should I yield or should he? If he goes head first into the wall is it my fault or is it his?

Quote from Mykl :

What I'm trying to figure out is this... exactly when is it wrong of me to come into contact with them in this situation, and when is it wrong of them to contact me?

Two cars should know that there is only one perfect racing line, so its quite obvious that neither you or the other driver should actually be on that 'perfect line' because if the two cars are asside you will not fit through the apex exit.

So there are two cars-two racing lines through the corner, it is WRONG to come into contact if YOU have strayed off YOUR line hitting another car, anyway if you find yourself that close to a driver you shloul maybe sit back for a lap or two respecting that the car in front is just as good as you are.

Assuming you're on the inside...

Quote from Mykl :

What I'm trying to figure out is this... exactly when is it wrong of me to come into contact with them in this situation, and when is it wrong of them to contact me?

(simplified) It's wrong for them to hit you during the entry phase of the corner, it's wrong for you to hit them during the exit phase - assuming they are still next to you and have half a car or more overlap.

Quote from Mykl :

... we ended up going side by side towards a chicane on the City course. I was on the inside. Should I yield or should he? If he goes head first into the wall is it my fault or is it his?

Neither driver has to yield, but if you're not going to yield then you should leave room for the car next to you in the corner. If he hits the wall because you didn't leave him room then it's your fault. In reality though - if we're talking about the SO Classic chicane - I would back down if I was on the outside.

I'm sitting here thinking about how I tend to make a brake-pass maneuver and now I realize that I'm not successful at it because I'm doing it all wrong to begin with.

When I get on the brakes I'm turning in too early, my line is too shallow, and I'm bleeding off too much speed in the process. I need to start staying out and turning in later. This puts them in the position to make a decision... turn into me, or wait until I turn in. This does not force them off the track, I don't go wide running into them, but still puts them at more of a disadvantage because they have to slow down as much as I do because they can't turn until I turn.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

Neither driver has to yield, but if you're not going to yield then you should leave room for the car next to you in the corner. If he hits the wall because you didn't leave him room then it's your fault. In reality though - if we're talking about the SO Classic chicane - I would back down if I was on the outside.

That's the specific turn I'm talking about. There's absolutely no way to go through that chicane two wide. You're basically playing chicken in that situation and the person on the outside is probably going to lose unless they turn into you and cause the wreck.

Quote from Mykl :

... I need to start staying out and turning in later. This puts them in the position to make a decision... turn into me, or wait until I turn in. This does not force them off the track, I don't go wide running into them, but still puts them at more of a disadvantage because they have to slow down as much as I do because they can't turn until I turn.

That's basically what you're doing anyway when you've got the inside line in the braking zone. From that point on you should control the corner, unless the guy on the outside can somehow get around it faster than you or if you make a mistake. Don't leave your turn-in too late though or they might get impatient, drop back, cut inside you and beat you to the apex.

Quote from Mykl :

That's the specific turn I'm talking about. There's absolutely no way to go through that chicane two wide. You're basically playing chicken in that situation and the person on the outside is probably going to lose unless they turn into you and cause the wreck.

You could go two wide through there but it would be embarrassingly slow. Again it depends what the overlap is. If I was on the inside I wouldn't try it unless I was fully alongside and I knew the guy had seen me. All in all the most important thing is to use common sense, make yourself visible, use explicit body language, all the things you do on a normal road I suppose... And don't do anything too risky unless you're racing against someone you know.

You're right thisnameistaken, I decided to take better advantage of the inside position on the track a few times tonight during races and it's definitely the problem I was having. Now the problem is that half the time people are still turning into me like they can't see me or something. I think this is what I was trying to avoid before by going into the apex on a shallow line, but I find that if I give the other car enough room but hold out for a more favorable line I get a much better drive out of the turn without interfering with my opponent.

I can also see how this timing issue comes into play, because I got busted with a repass on one attempt where I held on a weee bit too long.

Quote from Mykl :

You're right thisnameistaken, I decided to take better advantage of the inside position on the track a few times tonight during races and it's definitely the problem I was having. Now the problem is that half the time people are still turning into me like they can't see me or something.

The problem is that a lot of less-experience racers don't know how to drive off the racing line, so they just turn in whether there's a car in the way or not. On a busy public server the chances are high that a lot of the people you're racing against will be very inexperienced.

Ultimately, some of them may only ever learn not to turn in on other cars by doing it and seeing what a mess it makes. As a racer who has actually visited the forums and had a chat about how to race, I'm afraid the burden of keeping the racing clean now falls on you - basically you must consider yourself the only person on-track who knows how to race, until you meet other racers who demonstrate to you that they understand it too.

(don't worry - you'll meet plenty of them!)

Quote from thisnameistaken :

[...]

Well, the fortunate thing is that it doesn't ever really seem to upset my car all that much when they turn into me. I can usually continue on and make it through the turn safely. It seems to work out that they hit me, and go flying off way wide and I don't have to worry about them again.

I have definitely met a lot of clean racers on the STCC servers. Most of the time when a mistake happens, it really was just an honest mistake. I'm also sure I have some "unclean" tendencies I have yet to discover, but for the most part I do my best to make sure I don't interfere with anybody else's race and am quick to apologize when I screw up.

Thanks for helping me figure out the problem I was having. It's always nice to know that the problem was with yourself, then it's usually easy to fix.

Mykl, the very fact that you're interested to know, willing to hear, and keen to glean.. all goes to suggest, to me at least, that you're going to be a top bloke to race against, for years to come. You've gracefully hurdled the one stumbling block that I reckon is the great divide between those who become great drivers and those that many (consciously or unconsciously) give a wide berth wherever possible.

I have not read the whole thread yet, but I did want to point out that 'right to the corner' is probably better understood as 'right to the apex'.

Just because you have won the corner does not mean you have won the right to overtake your opponent. If you win the corner it means you are allowed to arrive at the apex before them.

Long version:
Well, for me it works like this; you can drive...

1. ...like a rowdy
   
2. ...by the rules
   
3. ...to avoid contact on a public server
   

In a perfect world, everybody would drive by the rules, leaving no questions open about who was at fault on an incident. Unfortunately this is not the case. Even if everybody drove by the rules, there are often different interpretations of the same rule, introducing a layer of uncertainty no matter how much everybody actively tries to abide the rules.

In the real world there are a lot of #1 drivers and a good bunch of #2 and #3 drivers. The problem arising from that situation is, that #1 and #2 behaviour doesn't mix at all. While a driver living the #2 principle might be the one not to blame for an incident most of the time, there still was an incident to begin with, which is bad in any case.

Personally I try to use a mix of #3 and #2 on public servers, if I don't know the people I'm racing with. This might lead to relatively passive behaviour and losing positions where I in theory would've had the right to hold the line, but I rather lose a position than ruin the race for either of us. However, this does not mean I completely give way to every passing attempt I encounter. I still make use of my rights and I'm sometimes quite bold in showing that. Yet when doing so, I still try to do my move slow enough to make it clear for the driver that the door will be closed, giving him a chance to react. This is still online after all, and lag does play a role.

All in all, drive by the rules where possible, but don't expect every driver to do the same. Leave room for error, and give way if he's obviously ignorant of the rules. Both of you (and some on the field around you) will have a better race, and you can still call him out after the race.

Short version:
Use common sense.

Quote from SamH :

Mykl, the very fact that you're interested to know, willing to hear, and keen to glean.. all goes to suggest, to me at least, that you're going to be a top bloke to race against, for years to come. You've gracefully hurdled the one stumbling block that I reckon is the great divide between those who become great drivers and those that many (consciously or unconsciously) give a wide berth wherever possible.

Thanks! I participate in real life motorsports activities and at some point in the next few years I plan to go club racing. LFS seems to be a decent tool for learning how to handle yourself in a crowd of cars. So I may as well take advantage of that.

Quote from Becky Rose :

I have not read the whole thread yet, but I did want to point out that 'right to the corner' is probably better understood as 'right to the apex'.

Just because you have won the corner does not mean you have won the right to overtake your opponent. If you win the corner it means you are allowed to arrive at the apex before them.

That's probably where I got confused.