On Wednesday, the upper house of the Russian parliament, the Federation Council, passed a resolution asking Estonia to halt its plans to remove a Soviet-Era Red Army monument in Tallinn.

“The Federation Council is highly concerned over the adoption of the law on the protection of war graves in Estonia,” the Russian news agency Interfax quoted the document as saying.

The law foresees the removal of the WWII era monument and grave of Soviet soldiers to another location. The current location, also the site of a trolleybus stop in a busy part of Tallinn, is considered by the Estonian government as a bad place for the monument to be located. And despite a member of the Constitution Party proposing to move the trolleybus stop, and a local Russian businessman offering to buy the land under the monument from the government, the government is holding firm on the law and their plans to move the monument.

“Defiant plans to rebury the remains of Soviet and anti-Hitler coalition soldiers from mass graves and to dismantle monuments to victims of World War II have been drawn up in spite of public opinion, decisions by municipal authorities, and the will of relatives of those killed,” the Federal Council document said.

The Federation Council statement was released on the same day as a rally outside of the Estonian embassy in Moscow, where an estimated 2,000 people gathered to protest Estonia's plans to remove the Bronze statue at Tonismagi in Tallinn.

The leader of the Nashi (Ours) movement, Vasily Yakemenko, told the media present that if the bronze statue of a Soviet soldier in Tallinn is removed, then Nashi activists will start going to Estonia and take turns standing guard on the monument's former site garbed in military uniform.

While the Russian Federation Council claimed that tearing the statue down would create more divisions in society, the Estonian Prime Minister defended the decision and said just the opposite.

“What respect are we talking about if crowds keep treading on the grave, hold rallies, drink vodka or wait for a trolleybus there? This goes against Estonians' idea of the place of eternal rest of the dead,” he said.

The prime minister added that the bronze statue of a Soviet soldier at Tonismagi in Tallinn has become a monument which is dividing the nation instead of uniting and consolidating it.

Despite fears that the issue will be used as political capital for extremists in Russian politics and could possibly lead to a situation where economic sanctions are placed on Estonia, Estonia remains cool on that prospect.

“If sanctions are imposed we'll have to accept it, but trade with Russia makes up only a tenth of the Estonian economy which is an insignificant part," Russian news agency Interfax quoted ambassador Marina Kaljurand as saying.

The ambassador at the same time said she hopes that adoption of laws on war graves and banned structures will not worsen Estonia's relationship with Russia.

"I hope the Russian side is ready to hear us out and show understanding for our position," she said adding that Estonia's domestic legal acts are based on international law and not directed against any country.

The bronze statue of a Soviet soldier at Tonismagi in downtown Tallinn whose possible removal has triggered a spate of Russian accusations of support for Nazi Germany has become a symbol of the Soviet occupation of Estonia, she explained.

“Today it is for the majority of the Estonian nation - and I'm speaking not only about ethnic Estonians but about all our fellow citizens - a symbol of the Soviet occupation,” Kaljurand said.

The diplomat underlined that Nazism never has been and is not being glorified in Estonia. “It is our duty to do everything possible for Nazism never to rise again,” she said.

Total idiots russians..
pictures what have done by russians ~2 hours back

Russia should have more serious problems (between their own borders) than some statue in another country.

Quote from deggis :

Russia should have more serious problems (between their ownd borders) than some statue in another country.

They do, but i guess they are bored, and need to start something "cool" again. The relations between Estonia and Russia haven't been very good for the past few years. I mean Russian planes "cutting corners" by flying through our airspace. And our prime minister going crazy about it doesn't do any good to the relations. Now this is just their chance to yell and start campaigns against us. As in Estonians are nazis and stuff. Btw, in Moscow, they just dismantled a similar monument just a few days ago. And we're the nazis, yeah right.

I have doubts on going to Tallinn this Saturday. I hope this doesn't go very big. I don't want to leave the country just yet.

Police says that ppl are cathering to Viru centre (One of the largest central in Tallinn). There will be many unlucky hangers now.

If you are lazy to read , watch this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DGMydHIcxg

Just want to clear out that I didn't mean to say "ownd borders", it was totally a typo but Taavi(EST) quoted it before I edited it. Of course I meant "own borders". Just in case that if someone got the wrong idea (related to 'owned' word which would be pretty childish to use in this case).

How does a monument to a few men who fought fascism become a symbol of Soviet occupation?

To be honest, I understand how - Estonia has an unfortunate historical legacy in having been occupied by both fascists and communists. But having witnessed first-hand the resurgence of fascist groups in what was East Germany, the notion that it is nationalists who largely want the statue removed, rings a few alarm bells in my head.

Quote from deggis :

Just want to clear out that I didn't mean to say "ownd borders", it was totally a typo but Taavi(EST) quoted it before I edited it. Of course I meant "own borders". Just in case that if someone got the wrong idea (related to 'owned' word which would be pretty childish to use in this case).

Actually "owned borders" wouldn't be very wrong, if Russia only had it's original borders, it wouldn't be the largest country in the world, not 2nd largest, not even 3rd or 4th. It would be roughly the same size as Mexico. But if you have been to the real Russia you would know that they are one of the friendliest people in the world, i remember in a small village (forgot the name) older women would come to you offering food and a place to stay for nothing, and no there were no nasty stuff for me to do there. They are really that nice. I just hate that Russians are judged by the emigrated people from Russia or it's occupied areas, most people that have absconded from Russia or stayed in the formerly occupied are mostly completely ignorant, OK there are some (i know) that are almost ok, but they are from the areas where they are extremely outnumbered and they just have to be nice to us.

Anyway, the riot has now quieted down, I don't even know why this was brought onto this forum.

Quote from nihil :

How does a monument to a few men who fought fascism become a symbol of Soviet occupation?

Because it was the Russians who claimed (shortly after WWII) that they were the rescuers of Estonia, but Russians were the ones who bombed down the most beautiful town in Estonia back then. Only 1 building remained. After that the statue was erected claiming that they buried the Heroes of Estonia there who fought back the fascists. Which never actually happened, so now our government actually wants to prove that the coffins buried are just empty, and if their not we're truly in some very deep shit.

And by the way, if you study closely, the communists and the fascists of WWII had almost 100% the same political interests. Just the media nowadays makes them so different, after all Russia was an ally and Germany was on the axis side, remember who won, and then think who is shown in the good light.

Quote from Taavi(EST) :

And by the way, if you study closely, the communists and the fascists of WWII had almost 100% the same political interests.

Wouldn't argue with you on that....

No, my concern was just the nature of the nationalist problem with the monument, so thats an interesting history you tell about the coffins. Those details are missing from the linked news reports. In fact the reason given in the reports is that the grave wasn't respected in its current position (used as tram stop etc). Certainly adds spice to the mix...

Quote from nihil :

Wouldn't argue with you on that....

No, my concern was just the nature of the nationalist problem with the monument, so thats an interesting history you tell about the coffins. Those details are missing from the linked news reports. In fact the reason given in the reports is that the grave wasn't respected in its current position (used as tram stop etc). Certainly adds spice to the mix...

Well, that's the current version they are telling to the media, so they can follow the rules of reburial by the book. It is allowed to rebury the graves, but if you say that you just want to see if the coffins are empty or not then you will be considered obscene. And this would really bring the worst out of some certain individuals (extremists).

WWIII,

i hope that, in a few day's everything cool's down, but we will see that...
Why ppl just can't think something out, without violence...

The statue is now at estonian graveyard

Statues remember us history, we shouldn't remove them, it doesn't matter if they represent fascism or communism, or anything else.

They are history, it's stupid to spend tons of money in archaeological studies while we bury our own recent history just because it has been cruel to some people. Or because we are ashamed of it.


My 2c

I'm glad that the Estonians made things done their way in their own country. Russia is trying to be the second super power again, and of course such establishments feel the need to poke their nose everywhere to show what their mighty powers can do and not to worry their own problems.

Now there's a temporary prohibition until next wednesday http://www.hs.fi/ulkomaat/arti ... ät/1135226853058?ref=rss (in finnish)

If that would be here in middle of Vappu (May Day) the biggest boozing day in Finland, the whole country would go berserk

I think it's sickening that the fallen from 'The Great Patriotic War' are treated as a political tool in an 'establishment of independence'.

Surely the political struggle should be with living Russians, not those who gave their life fighting tyranny.

This is all very sad.

Quote from Becky Rose :

I think it's sickening that the fallen from 'The Great Patriotic War' are treated as a political tool in an 'establishment of independence'.

Surely the political struggle should be with living Russians, not those who gave their life fighting tyranny.

This is all very sad.

Huh? The statue, for my knowledge, was built by the soviet soldiers who invaded the country "liberating" it. For the Estonians it's a memory for the beginning of the soviet invasion which lasted what, about 40 years? I can totally understand why they think having that kind of statue middle of a modern city isn't the right place for it.

Reading some news, and really seems that Russians are way over reacting on this, they are thinking of braking up the diplomatic relations because of this.

Quote from Krane :

Now there's a temporary prohibition until next wednesday http://www.hs.fi/ulkomaat/arti ... ät/1135226853058?ref=rss (in finnish)

If that would be here in middle of Vappu (May Day) the biggest boozing day in Finland, the whole country would go berserk

Finland's government and society would probably collapse, we'd have a revolution, the army would attack Turku which had declared it as Finnish version of Switzerland (without nazi gold, chocolate or cuckoo clocks).

Quote from Eldanor :

Statues remember us history, we shouldn't remove them, it doesn't matter if they represent fascism or communism, or anything else.

They are history, it's stupid to spend tons of money in archaeological studies while we bury our own recent history just because it has been cruel to some people. Or because we are ashamed of it.

Monuments can also be a means for propaganda, to express only one party's view of a conflict (as in the Valle de los Caidos). They can continue to hurt, even after the conflict itself has begun to fade into history.

Quote from Blackout :

Reading some news, and really seems that Russians are way over reacting on this, they are thinking of braking up the diplomatic relations because of this.

I think you have to see this within a fairly complex set of interests... There's no way its a simple binary argument. I've only done a little reading since this was posted, but even so its apparent that some of the disorder comes from a perception that Estonian nationalism is being used as a cover for fascist interests.

Largely, these complaints are coming from Russian sources, so you have to take it with a pinch of salt, but Tallinn has been a venue for SS reunions in the past. No big deal really, since many Estonians joined the Waffen SS not from fascist sympathy, but to fight the Red Army's incipient occupation. Devil and the deep blue sea... But this past does provide a touchstone for Estonian nationalists of a certain kind...

Its not clear cut, which is probably why the monument is being moved... To prevent it from being a focus for further disturbances (I'm being generous to the authorities here, due to lack of truly informed opinion on my part...). But frankly, if monuments aren't for bringing the tensions of society out into the open, what good are they? To remember the dead, certainly, but the dead don't walk our streets. Monuments are for the living, they form part of our political and social landscape. They shouldn't be hidden.

Quote :

Huh? The statue, for my knowledge, was built by the soviet soldiers who invaded the country "liberating" it.

Oh sorry I thought it was a WW2 monument, if it's from the Soviet occupation then burn it down. Ah but hang on, arn't those two things intertwinned in Estonia's case? If so it's suddenly a more complex issue...

I'll just go and have me a brain heamorage over here whilst I think about it.

To the Brits... Let´s imagine for a moment that the Nazis won WW2. That they occupied your country. Destroyed all your previous monuments, deported thousands of people from their homes, killed thousands, took away all your property, made the official language german, banned religion, brought in almost as many germans as there is you and kicked you out of your homes to make room for them, not allow you to leave, put you in jail when ever they wished, sent you to fight in distant wars, occupyed your country for 50 years and then have the nerve to call themselves "liberators". If this would have happened then how would you feel about a monument for i.e. Luftwaffe at the Trafalger Square where the nazis would go and wave their swastika flags every year?


And those who rioted there were just young drunk russians who used the monument as an excuse to smash and steal. You don´t show your ideology by stealing jeans from HugoBoss shop.

Also the hippocracy and arrogence of russian goverment. They destroyed two WW2 monuments in recent months. We just moved one from the centre of the city and put it on a graveyard. They´re just looking for ways to badmouth us to the world. The nationalist argument is just bs, it´s just russian propaganda. There is no nazi movement here but there is still a communist party in Russia.

They plan to cut all the diplomatic and economical relations. One member of the oposition party even said that this was enough to start a war. It´s just a piece of rock and metal for crying out loud.

Quote from Kalev EST :

One member of the oposition party even said that this was enough to start a war.

I guess that politician didn't remember Estonia being member of NATO, silly Russian politicians. :P

Your parallel isn't quite right. It would be like the Nazi's invading, and America then invading to kick out the Nazi's, then America staying on afterward and putting up airbases and taking tribute from the government, probably under the guise of some more politically acceptable term like 'lend lease' or something like that.... They'd send us off to right in two distant wars at the same time, whilst getting our sailors arrested whilst reconnoitering a third...