Quote from Taavi(EST) :

fighting off all the skeptics just like Boris here is. (no offense)

But i was just like you some time ago, search for the locked thread i posted, asking Scawen to give us some Eric plans..
It's just the timing of you guys is all wrong, now, more than ever, it looks like we will get something from Eric, i agree that some teasers would be great, but there isn't any (yet), so what can you do.. Drink some Cola like i do good things started to happen to me lately, so i kinda feel a little optimistic.. that's it..

Again, i am saying, your timing is off...
If we don't get anything graphics wise (especially interiors) till S2 final, than you can say me "I told you so", and i am catching a plane to England to slap Eric in the face..

If Scawen is reading this, please consider peoples worries here, these are all old school fans "complaining" here, not some dorRIFTazzZZ! noobs... give us a clear answer on wheather or not Eric is doing/planning on doing something for the S2 final..

The updated cockpits for all cars (possibly some 3D stuff, rather than 2D) will do it for me, as everything else can be updated via high res stuff from community, and maybe some more detailed car exteriors, polygon wise... i think (and i think most here agree with me) that these stuff would be MORE than enough to satisfy these pesimist!

I would gladly hand over all of my original high-res stuff if the devs, and you guys, thought it would help. Unseen as well is totally dedicated to churning out high-res textures for the interiors and the like. But it is unfair to harp on Eric like this- if there's anything I've learnt over the past year it's just how time-consuming his job must really be- not only texturing, but modelling, and track design- his input into the game is already staggering. And moaning probably won't help him work at his job any harder; it definitely won't allow him to work any faster.

There hasn't been said anything that suggests that "something big" is coming. I realy hope that false starts wasn't it.

What is coming, I don't know but my hopes are pretty low. False starts and diff preload with the balancing of the TBO/GTR are really something that I was expecting a lot sooner. But then again there are bucketloads of stuff that should be implemented. I am not saying that I fully understand how LFS is planned to develop in the next 365days but in my list of things-needed-to-be-done engine damage, rewindable replays and better aero/collision model are a lot, LOT higher than insim... Imho there shouldn't even be any hesitation which to choose to update next :/

Another thing that is funny is that certain people always have these obscure release dates for S2/S3. Tbh, I wouldn't expect S2 full before 2009. It is not the "slowness" of the development that bothers me, it is the stuff that seems to be on high priority.

Although I can fully understand why the speed is slowing down. The main coder, Scawen has a family now. Priorities change.

Quote from Boris Lozac :

Again, i am saying, your timing is off...
If we don't get anything graphics wise (especially interiors) till S2 final, than you can say me "I told you so", and i am catching a plane to England to slap Eric in the face..

I'm probably coming with you in that case. (sorry for being offensive)

Quote from Boris Lozac :

The updated cockpits for all cars (possibly some 3D stuff, rather than 2D) will do it for me, as everything else can be updated via high res stuff from community, and maybe some more detailed car exteriors, polygon wise... i think (and i think most here agree with me) that these stuff would be MORE than enough to satisfy these pesimist!

If the high-res, high(er)-polygon cockpits are the only things we're getting, they need to be mighty perfect, i was expecting a small update within the interiors, The bigger hopes for me are in the environments. As in new tracks (at least new configurations), some new cars to play with. Plus i would really like to see the DX8 being used thoroughly, as in better quality shadows, bump maps, specular maps, etc.

Quote from Bladerunner :

mmm...the question of time....

for an Old Fart (tm) like me, there is always the risk that I will never SEE S3, let alone get the chance to play it!...

Geez man you're only 3 years older than me and I plan to be around to see cars fly.....lol

Quote :

i would really like to see the DX8 being used thoroughly

I've been playing Stalker in DX8 mode recently, and have to say, its a beautiful game in DX8- crisp, detailed.. and smooth as butter. I reckon there's plenty of room left yet in DX8 for LFS to improve graphically.

Im Far From a LFS fan boy and still beleave LFS is one of the best if not the Best racing sim i have played it dose lack small details in some aera's but it feels better then any other sim i have played.
Most other racing sims have bad compatabilty with the DFP and bad Force feedback but lfs is allmost on par with the feeling of the cars.

I feel LFS really needs a big update i been here for a really long time befor even hex editing was done to mod the cars pre demo days and to me not much has changed in the visual department and personaly i dont care about the looks of the game its about the content and feel for me.

PS i wonder if anyone thought maybe eric is busy working on S3 stuff IE new cars+tracks? (i hope he is) i really dont want to wait 2 years to see S3 cause by then ill be doing my on racing :P

Well, I've read the thread and I think I understand where folks are at.

Ian, your posts *do* read as trollish downers at face value, at least to me, but listening to the interaction, as people pull you up on individual points, it's becoming clear that actually you're probably as much a fanboi as me. You're just frustrated at the apparent lack of progress. If you're yearning for rapid progress in LFS, I can imagine you'd be frustrated at this point.

I've said many times before that I like the workers' co-op ethics that LFS is developed in. On that basis alone, I'd probably forgive Scavier anything. I like the fact that this ethos leads to the development of code that is right, rather than code that will do. I don't, personally, care about the pace because good things come to those who wait, and I'm having a kick-ass time with it as it is now.

I don't like GTR2. It's a personal opinion. I just don't think it's got anything on LFS, physics-wise (and that's my primary interest, incidentally). Things happen in LFS because the environment is a physics emulation of real-world environment. It's not perfect, as you know, but as time passes it does get better.

I know that rF is nowhere on the radar regarding physics, because the cars and tracks in rF *don't* exist in a physics emulation. You have to (more to the point, you *can*) create your own values, when you code a mod for rF. This is very unattractive to me.

Graphically, I agree that LFS is missing out on some eyecandy DX8 tricks. I don't know if those are coming or not. Perhaps it'd be nice if they were, but they'd be simply eyecandy for me. I'm already fully immersed when I'm racing. For some people, perhaps these fx would assist in the immersion. At the end of the day, if the effects come at the expense of the physics, I'll pass thanks.

So I'm a fanboi. Boohoo

Quote from Taavi(EST) :

every time i try to slide through a corner then counter steering makes the car spin faster than without counter steering at all.

naturally with the bogus tyre curves gtr2 uses

Quote from Tweaker :

it really hasn't gone leaps and bounds ahead of other sims that are rapidly surpassing this game.

what are these other sims you speak of ?

Quote from Hyperactive :

and reading the latest Scawen's post about realism:

As a person who is all about realism in sims, (as long as it serves a purpose) I find that extremely discouraging.

Before I thought these "arcade" things that have been there for years for no real reason because Scawen hasn't put "yet" any effort to them. I remember Scawen wrote similar "joke" post to that auto handbrake thread. After that I started to think that is this approach really the one he wants to take. That post pretty much blows away half of the features everyone is waiting for S3...

It's really akward that the tyre physics are extremely hardcore but everything else is just made with "easy to play" approach. I wonder does this all come back to that LFS started as a small freeware indy project, maybe with a bit blurred future plans and now Scawen wants to keep this "small indy game that's fun to play" image. As much I'd say Kunos is an a-hole because the way he has treated nKp customers but I really admire his hardcore approach, even that the end result on certain things is not the best possible in gameplay-wise.

Quote from Ian.H :

and why the sound engine hasn't received a _significant_ update by now is beyond me as this is usually the first complaint anyone has, so surely one that should be addressed as a priority.

I don't know what to say to this because I remember you said while ago in the sound imporovements thread that you'd still prefer pre-V/W sounds. Can you describe "significant"? And what you are expecting from the sounds then? I sure hope you're familiar the way the sounds are produced in LFS. Now after Patch W it's the best prove about synthesized sound potential - not like there would be much competition in this synthetisized sounds area, only netKar Pro with it's "simulating distorted onboard movie sound quality" sounds and Todd Wasson's experimental sound engine.

Quote from Electrik Kar :

I've been playing Stalker in DX8 mode recently, and have to say, its a beautiful game in DX8- crisp, detailed.. and smooth as butter. I reckon there's plenty of room left yet in DX8 for LFS to improve graphically.

I agree. And what would be the point of adding few fancy DX8/9 effects for as long as we have lo-res textures? I really wonder what's the reason for that, I mean even the default skins are 512x512. It can't be keeping the download size small (not like we're still in 56 kbps modem era) and as some tests seems to prove, using hi-res texture addons doesn't actually make that much difference to fps, so it can't be that either. Seems like someone is obsessed with lo-res textures size.



.

Quote from Shotglass :

Quote from Tweaker :

it really hasn't gone leaps and bounds ahead of other sims that are rapidly surpassing this game.

what are these other sims you speak of ?

You forgot to put "sims" in quotes :rolleyes: Again, people are just on it about the physics. I am talking about the visual aspects.

Cars in LFS are very low detail, hardly any qualities to them. As with other popular titles, there are much nicer looking car models, higher detailed wheels, cockpits, hell even windows from the inside. The list can carry on for a while. Even GPL has blurred sidewall animations.

Tracks in LFS are really not complete in my opinion (of course they will be touched up, but when?), there is still some work to do, or else they will feel like a flat/planar track with no proper fringe, bumps on kerbs (and yes there are bumpy kerbs that can be driven both directions), poorly designed chicanes on pit exits/entrances, texture bugs, lack of crowds (no ambiance), etc. Look around and you'll see. Nothing is complete of course, but then look at the animations. Poor driver modeling for the body and helmet, no decent animations while driving... not even a pit crew in the pitlane. What about lights (and day/night), better smoke, glowing brake discs, exhaust backfire, sparks, real looking dial clusters, sun glare, wet weather, pace car, proper penalty flags, AI that work and can drive fast, built-in telemetry, useful pit strategies, shattering/breakable objects on tracks & cars, damaged body panels (and fall off), dirt visible on the tires, rewind in replays, proper gearbox simulation and stalling, blown engines / mechanical failures, racing line grip levels (marbles), track temps... There is probably a lot more to list.

And tell me, no other sim beats LFS in respects to those things? Some of those things are in games dating back even before LFS was born. We don't have ANY of this, and it makes a driving game 10x better. Are people really still waiting on S3 till they think they will get this stuff? LOL.

These things are what you need to have in order to make a competitive driving game in the market these days. Else you can just say "oh but you don't need that", and continue to spread your beliefs that LFS is the "BEST" and has all you ever need in a driving game. As far as I know, people that love LFS's physics but cannot "love" the game like you do (those on RSC that hate LFS fanboys) really want more like what I listed above... or else it just isn't an interesting game for other enthusiasts and we look and make a complete ass of ourselves by not accepting it. We are still very much in a fantasy world with LFS's limited visual atmosphere, but that still doesn't mean those things listed are completely impossible or should wait years and years down the road... or else, once LFS finally gets those things, it won't exactly be "groundbreaking" like LFS really sets out to be, right?

I have to agree wholeheartedly with SamH's comments.

The bottom line is that I'll keep playing LFS until something better (subjectively speaking) comes along, and right now I don't see anything out there--or anything on the horizon--that comes close.

Of course I get frustrated from time to time with the slow development process, and of course it's a little ridiculous that 2+ years on from the S2 release we still don't have a S2 final. Of course we'd all like to have all the features we want, and of course we'd like to have them RIGHT NOW.

The thing that keeps me from getting too worked up about these wants is that I just love the feeling of playing LFS, even in its current, unfinished state. Not even NR2003 or GPL come close for me. Tonight, for example, I dropped in on the CHOPS Sunday Cup race without any practice and had a great battle that ended with me making up 12+ seconds in 7 or 8 laps and making the pass on the final turn of the final lap. My heart was pounding, I was sweating, and my hands were stuck in a clenching position for an hour after the race. And this was a race for third place! In a race that doesn't mean anything in a larger sense (i.e., a league or anything). That's what keeps me playing LFS--the knowledge that I can log in on any given night, play with guys I know and trust, and have a great, close race without worrying about weird physics inconsistencies or bad multiplayer code ruining things.

And I can assure you that I was not at any time busy worrying about the lack of bump mapping or realistic hi-res cracks in the pavement.

...which is not to say that these things are not important, but rather to say that LFS is good enough in its current state at the task of simulating driving that it keeps me from worrying too much about those things. Others might not find the simulation as engrossing, might thus have more time to focus on the aesthetic details. That's fine, every community needs critics to keep things moving forward. And it's fine if someone doesn't find the game to their liking, can't handle the wait for updates, etc etc.

One thing that I think has helped my enjoyment of the game substantially is that I've had a couple long breaks in my LFS career. One from mid-S1 to the release of S2, and one from August of last year to January of this year. Each time I came back refreshed and fell in love with the experience all over again. Maybe if you're going through a rough patch re: your interest in the game, taking a break would help?

Bottom line #2: LFS has easily the highest time played and enjoyed/dollars spent ratio of any game I've owned, and that alone ensures that it's been worth my money. In no way can I fault the devs for their slow development process when I've been pleased with the game (as such) at every step along the way. Rather than seeming like the long awaited ends of various kinds of torture, the updates that come with each patch are presents to me. They make a game I love better. Perhaps this is a product of lowered expectations of the sim world as a whole, I don't know for sure.

I guess I'll stop rambling there. Like SamH said, this probably paints me a fanboy, but hopefully one who's understanding of those who aren't.

Damn.

Ian and Tweaker are right; I'm taking my rose colored glasses off. I think Patch Y, as Bob alluded to, will probably either really make or break LFS's development for a lot of people. If it doesn't deliver I could see a lot of dissent happening around here TBH. Months is one thing; but when we start talking about years between changes that really affect the experience, something is strange. A year is a long time folks!

Pre S2 was the glory days, even more so than pre-S1 (yes I know I wasn't active, but I lurked for a long time in the shadows). I don't know what to think anymore TBH

I still have tons of fun racing though!

I've played a lot of GTR2 this week, but I can only handle it a week at a time because the cars are so limited (wow, a bunch of GTRs. How exciting.) and the tyres are ridiculous compared to LFS. But it sounds "ok" most of the time, and has a couple of decent tracks. The fact that I get bored of it in less than a week is encouraging, because LFSs dynamics are just that good that I come back for more no matter what.

So I'm still a fanboi (:razz albeit one who's wondering WTH is up with the future of LFS.

first of all dont try to put me in any fanboy category and think youre done with me all youll accomplish that way is get me pissy

Quote from Tweaker :

You forgot to put "sims" in quotes :rolleyes: Again, people are just on it about the physics. I am talking about the visual aspects.

its about the whole package and while lfs is far from perfect on visual it doesnt completely drop the ball like its entire competition has done so far one one aspect or another
hell most of them even drop the ball on visuals and completely ruin their nice models and highres textures by trying to compete with farbrausch 30

Quote :

Cars in LFS are very low detail, hardly any qualities to them. As with other popular titles, there are much nicer looking car models, higher detailed wheels, cockpits, hell even windows from the inside. The list can carry on for a while. Even GPL has blurred sidewall animations.

and how much of that do you actually notice while youre in a race ?

Quote :

Tracks in LFS are really not complete in my opinion (of course they will be touched up, but when?), there is still some work to do, or else they will feel like a flat/planar track with no proper fringe, bumps on kerbs (and yes there are bumpy kerbs that can be driven both directions), poorly designed chicanes on pit exits/entrances, texture bugs, lack of crowds (no ambiance), etc. Look around and you'll see. Nothing is complete of course, but then look at the animations. Poor driver modeling for the body and helmet, no decent animations while driving... not even a pit crew in the pitlane. What about lights (and day/night), better smoke, glowing brake discs, exhaust backfire, sparks, real looking dial clusters, sun glare, wet weather, pace car, proper penalty flags, AI that work and can drive fast, built-in telemetry, useful pit strategies, shattering/breakable objects on tracks & cars, damaged body panels (and fall off), dirt visible on the tires, rewind in replays, proper gearbox simulation and stalling, blown engines / mechanical failures, racing line grip levels (marbles), track temps... There is probably a lot more to list.

wile one half of your list would really add something to lfs the other half is really nothing more than eye candy you hardly ever notice past the first few minutes of playing the game and admiring the scenery
this is not doom or fear where the graphics enhance the gameplay

Quote :

These things are what you need to have in order to make a competitive driving game in the market these days.

if the market is ferrari27 and the like id gladly pay another 24£ to make up for the loss


lets be honest lfs is far from perfect and it feels like its standing still rather than moving but claiming that its falling behind is far from the truth as there currently isnt anything that even manages to overtake in the first place

id like to see lfs progress faster than it does as much as any other guy here (although in a different direction than many here as id rather not have a silly hardcore mode and dont care too much about erics work being the kind of guy who played quake 3 with picmip 8 if you know what that means) but the fact is that lfs is progressing in a slow but steady gait much like a tuin and much like that all others around him/her arent moving at all (hell that ferrari game with the grand new engine will still use isi physics ... the isi devs dont even recognise theres something seriously wrong with their tyres and believe that you need some special setup to keep a car sideways ... and kunos seems to prefer googling for underaged asian girls for his avatars over coding)
and as far as astropsychology in respect to turtles like lfs is concerend im a believer in the big bang hypothesis

Quote from Shotglass :

and how much of that do you actually notice while youre in a race ?

An argument of someone that could care less of LFS looking better, just what we need. Never going to get the message across with you then. *check*

how convenient to end a discussion on a single line

Just play some other game while LFS gets to the point your pet peeves are fixed... When have Scavier shown they were coasting on LFS' success? What would you do better in their shoes? All the complaining in the world is no help. It is just stating the obvious (Scavier only have so much brain power/time/resources), and/or (depending on how it's said) plain disingenuous.
All I would add is one more developer to the crew, and the hard part as I see it would be for that dev to fit in without counterproductively rocking the boat.

LFS will be done when it's done, no sooner or later. That's what "alpha" means.

It's not about seeing those things while you race, it's the satisfaction of knowing that it has been dealt with. Then again, if we get dynamic shadows, its going to be much harder to judge your braking points, lol.

It didn't click that it's been two whole years since S2 Alpha hit the shelves (so to speak) until I read this thread. Two years in the alpha phase really is quite a long time, regardless of how much I love playing the game. That's more observation than critique though as I've no idea how to code, well, anything.

I can sympathise with those players who are concerned about LFS being overtaken by other sims with more cash and which are being developed faster, however a lot of LFS' rivals that I've tried are wide of the mark when it comes to the core issue of how the car feels when you drive it. To me, that's step one in making a good sim and everything else should be secondary.

Although as a long-time fan, I too am wondering what happens next (and when) for this killer little indy sim :up:

Quote from DeadWolfBones :

The thing that keeps me from getting too worked up about these wants is that I just love the feeling of playing LFS, even in its current, unfinished state. Tonight, for example, I dropped in on the CHOPS Sunday Cup race without any practice and had a great battle that ended with me making up 12+ seconds in 7 or 8 laps and making the pass on the final turn of the final lap. My heart was pounding, I was sweating, and my hands were stuck in a clenching position for an hour after the race. And this was a race for third place!

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

because LFSs dynamics are just that good that I come back for more no matter what.

Yeah!

Quote from DeadWolfBones :

Bottom line #2: LFS has easily the highest time played and enjoyed/dollars spent ratio of any game I've owned, and that alone ensures that it's been worth my money. In no way can I fault the devs for their slow development process when I've been pleased with the game (as such) at every step along the way. Rather than seeming like the long awaited ends of various kinds of torture, the updates that come with each patch are presents to me. They make a game I love better.

+1


I understand how some of the posts here are upset with the slow progress in some areas of the game(content), but I would have to disagree with the attitude that the devs still fundamentally owe us something, they have already delivered for the price I have paid.

Wonderful thread ain't it?

The only thing that I see though.....people who defend LFS like crazy, and people that get pissed because of "what might have been.." are basically the same. - you all are emotionally attached to the thing, and THAT IS THE POINT in my opinion.

Put things in a more objective perspective, it is pretty unlikely that LFS is going to be the one and only sim, a sim that is miles ahead in physics and can stand just shoulder to shoulder compare to most of the driving games out on the market, just think about the odds.

If that is going to happen, it would either take a lot of investment, a lot of manpower, or a lot of time - obviously we ain't having the first two so we are taking a hell lot of time. And that is granted in my opinion.

Did you heard about LFS when it's just a few line of codes? Nah, you heard of it when there's already a workable demo with huge potential, so everyone goes BANG!!! THIS ROCKS!! Without knowing the time already spent in the project beforehand, now that excitment wears away we realise it is moving too slow, but what I think is, it is always that slow and you shouldn't realise it only by now.

Can't blame people of their impatience, since everything in this world is moving at lightspeed. Games are getting giantic, more flashy then ever, even more influential then movies as a media, it's a very comptitive market, so realistically saying the chance of a indie group making a big break in such a technology and labour intensive industry is almost zero.

You think LFS looks and sound bad?? It probably should or else the guys in major game studios should be sacked!

Fact is, there is no reference in this kind of small team basement race sim project that we can use as a comparision, remotely we can think netkar, and do anyone feel that the development of netkar is signicficantly faster than LFS. (if it's actually faster to start with?) R-factor is built upon a physics model that can be dated a decade ago, a whole decade! I don't think it is particular quick as well in comparison.

The best memory I have from GPL is when I was racing against the ai at Mexico with full race gp or something. It was a long race and I had put much effort into it to get a good result. I was leading on the last lap when my engine broke because my own aggressive shifting to get myself pass of jim clarke (or some of those ). It is those moments that LFS misses completely. It is also the moments I miss so much!

Imho, engine damage and better collisions should be on top of priorities, much more important than some +12 racers (how many full 20 slot servers you see?). When looking at games like Gran turismos the most wanted features are engine damage and decent collision detection. On LFS scale of things these are below insim, a programming interface for racing sim. Not to be rude but if LFS aims to be a perfect sim for programmer/racers (in that order) we are pretty much on right tracks? What about the hc sim racers who are after close racing, car management through races and more visual and audible experience of being there?

That's what I love about GPL - the need for some mechanical sympathy. I've lost more than one race by having my '67 V12 Gurney-Weslake explode behind me because I was abusing it. I'd dearly love to see engine damage in LFS - too many people are getting away with murder

I think this thread is valuable - there seem to be a lot of long-time fanboiz () coming out of the woodwork, as it were, and speaking honestly about their desires for LFS :up:

Quote from AtomAnt :

Geez man you're only 3 years older than me and I plan to be around to see cars fly.....lol

Seen that already...just hit a barrier at 10mph in LFS