I have kind of dilemma, as in title.
It was returning every time after same situation: racing in middle field, an ultra fast driver is screaming BLUE FLAG! BLUE FLAG! from kilometer, and when catching me in corner with greater speed: bang. Two cars spinning on the grass. Then, standard 'move you ass noob!' or 'learn to drive idiot!'. But hey, when it is not my fault (in chicanes it is hard to avoid speeding missile properly), I think that some very fast guys can not drive another raceway they've learned, or react like race driver should react in changing conditions.

I have an interesting story also
Some years ago I've installed Rally Trophy demo on friends PC, because it was brand new machine. He wasn't interested in motor-sports like me, but he started playing it too. First attempts to control the car failed due to different arcade behaviour in games, but after time we where able to complete rally stage alive. Some day he told me that he beated my pb, so I worked at home and beated his. He was really fast and I was ashamed by some of his new pb's and driving abilities.
Anyway, when we purchased full version of Rally Trophy I couldn't believe that he is not able to do any corner of new stage! He was trying with demo car, but even then he was crashing in every corner, while I used to this arcade driving model in demo times and drove not super fast, but always to finish without big crashes.

I believed that he learned the car behaviour in game, but in fact he only learned to press buttons in exact known moments, and on another stage he was like at first time we played demo.

After this happened I lost respect to group of uber fast drivers who cannot drive, in fact.
Do you know how it is in LFS world, how hotlappers practise, how many of them are talented racers really, and how many just exploits LFSs 'work_in_progres' physics and are driving mechanically?

Good question... I think this happens in real life too. I autocross quite regularly and was having a discussion the other week with someone about guys who only autocross their own car and do it for years on end. They are very quick in their own car, but then if they try something that's significantly different, they have to start from scratch.

I think most people can get pretty quick in LFS just by repetition, but I think the fastest guys definitely need some talent. One thing I don't like about hotlapping is that someone like me who is fairly quick but doesn't have any world records can get that one lucky lap that is not really representative of my speed. I feel being consistently quick in a race and being good at managing tires at the same time is more impressive than being quick on a hotlap. When I see someone lap within a few tenths of a world record lap consistently for a 20 lap race, then I'm impressed. Then I guess there's also the question, are they one of those guys who can do this because they only race that one combo, and have done thousands of laps there....okay, maybe I'm really impressed when someone can hop in any car at any track and be consistently quick, that's got to show talent!

Quote from pasibrzuch :

I have kind of dilemma, as in title.
It was returning every time after same situation: racing in middle field, an ultra fast driver is screaming BLUE FLAG! BLUE FLAG! from kilometer, and when catching me in corner with greater speed: bang. Two cars spinning on the grass. Then, standard 'move you ass noob!' or 'learn to drive idiot!'. But hey, when it is not my fault (in chicanes it is hard to avoid speeding missile properly), I think that some very fast guys can not drive another raceway they've learned, or react like race driver should react in changing conditions.

In my opinion you should let the fast guy pass before the corner, in Lfs we have alot of short races so if u are about to get lapped then you must have screwed up badly, so why do u want him to slow down for you? With lack of competition fast drivers go for pb's and stuff, at such a time its quite frustrating if a lapped guy makes u back off!

I don't think you can generalise this. There are plenty of very fast hotlappers whom are perfectly capable of driving a consistent, fast and fair race.

For me, spending a lot of time on a track to get closer to the WR is just something that's needed. On shorter tracks you might be a second slower than the world-record, and if you want to go faster you simply have to gain more experience on the combo, but I do believe that this ultimately leads to an increase driving ability.

About 6 months ago I was in a short-lived racing team which had an internal competition on Kyo Nat in the FOX. I had the fastest time back then, but I hit a limit at some point, which I couldn't cross.

A couple of weeks ago the OWRL had the race at Kyo Nat, so I had to hotlap for the same combo again, and I almost instantly broke my old PB, and found that I could go even faster with a more loose set-up. So in that time I did grow and adapt my driving style and ability, even though I hadn't raced on that particular combo ever since.

If you are able to go fast on a certain combo, but don't learn anything in doing so, I think you have failed. However, I sincerely doubt it's possible to get anywhere close to a WR without learning a whole lot about your own abilities and limitations.

Quote from pasibrzuch :

I have kind of dilemma, as in title.
It was returning every time after same situation: racing in middle field, an ultra fast driver is screaming BLUE FLAG! BLUE FLAG! from kilometer, and when catching me in corner with greater speed: bang. Two cars spinning on the grass. Then, standard 'move you ass noob!' or 'learn to drive idiot!'. But hey, when it is not my fault (in chicanes it is hard to avoid speeding missile properly), I think that some very fast guys can not drive another raceway they've learned, or react like race driver should react in changing conditions.

Hiya..
I've noticed that this kind of situation is growing less and less online, these days. This makes me very happy.

At one time, I think perhaps there was a tendency for many to believe that the fast guys owned the track. Today, this doesn't seem to be the case. They can be fast or slow, it makes no difference, as long as they're clean and polite.

It's a long time since I saw "blueflag!letmepass!!blueflag!letmepass!!blueflag!letmepass!!blueflag!letmepass!!" from anybody who wasn't immediately called to task. If people are not polite in LFS, today, then they are nobody. Clean drivers are everywhere.. drivers who understand the blue flag rules, and respect them, abound. Both the person being blue-flagged AND the person wishing to pass. All in all, compared with how things once were, I think things are great today!

Quote from ChristijaNL :

In my opinion you should let the fast guy pass before the corner, in Lfs we have alot of short races so if u are about to get lapped then you must have screwed up badly, so why do u want him to slow down for you? With lack of competition fast drivers go for pb's and stuff, at such a time its quite frustrating if a lapped guy makes u back off!

How wrong can you be? This is the exact problem with most online sim racers. No you are not going for a PB, you are racing. And in racing you should not slam into the car in front of you period! The "hotlapper", notice I didn't say racer, should have slowed down in the corner enough to not hit him then gone by in the next straight when he was actually close enough to pass him. The one being blue flagged should only get out of the way once he was through the corner. It's this mentality that makes pick-up servers a crappy place to "race" but a great place to compare "hotlapping" ability.:banghead:

Quote from pasibrzuch :

I have kind of dilemma, as in title.
It was returning every time after same situation: racing in middle field, an ultra fast driver is screaming BLUE FLAG! BLUE FLAG! from kilometer, and when catching me in corner with greater speed: bang. Two cars spinning on the grass. Then, standard 'move you ass noob!' or 'learn to drive idiot!'. But hey, when it is not my fault (in chicanes it is hard to avoid speeding missile properly), I think that some very fast guys can not drive another raceway they've learned, or react like race driver should react in changing conditions.

The simple fact is that this sort of driver due to the simple fact that they SPAM the server with these messages has no respect whatsoever to any other racer ontrack at the time.

Ask yourself THIS.... is it a true online PB if they demand a totally clear track ahead of them ? as in this scenario they are not racing ..... THEY ARE INFACT HOTLAPPING which they can do offline.

Personally I think that they act as bad as the noob driver that spoils everyones fun by crashing and trying to drive a car that they cannot handle........It's the other extreme case.

You HOTLAPPERS DO NOT OWN THE SERVERS YOU ARE THERE TO TAKE PART so keep your anger under control and pick your way through the traffic especially on servers that allow for 2 or 3 different types of car to race.

And remember an automatic BLUE FLAG appears so there is no use to your spam messages, the spam infact can have the opposite effect to what your after.

Same here, I can't say I or any fast drivers I know or drive with spam the blueflag message whenever they are getting close to a backmarker. I saw it once in the past while but that was needed when one guy was making a habbit of slowing every bloody car down that came up behind him.

The hotlapping thing, there's only so far you can go doing the remembering every slight movement before you actually have to have some talent IMO. When I used to hotlap I generally had WR's for smaller combos, because on a big combo I 'could' be as fast or faster than the WR, but with there being 2 or 3 sector times it was hard to keep your focus up to nail the full lap, especcially when you get a really good sector time.

Another thing, I don't think that the main part of hotlapping is going fast, it's keeping your cool and giving it 100% the whole way. Which is also a big part of racing.

Quote from ChristijaNL :

In my opinion you should let the fast guy pass before the corner, in Lfs we have alot of short races so if u are about to get lapped then you must have screwed up badly, so why do u want him to slow down for you? With lack of competition fast drivers go for pb's and stuff, at such a time its quite frustrating if a lapped guy makes u back off!

Quote from FIA Rule 4d :

Blue Flag:
This should normally be waved, as an indication to a driver that he is about to be overtaken. It has different meanings during practice and the race.
At all times : - A stationary flag should be displayed to a driver leaving the pits if traffic is approaching on the track.
During practice :
- Give way to a faster car which is about to overtake you.
During the race :
- The flag should normally be shown to a car about to be lapped and, when shown, the driver concerned must allow the following car to pass at the earliest opportunity.

Oh dear. What a shame!

It must be terrible to be held up at a bend/corner/chicane by a slower driver...solution; simple! Just barge straight through and wreck both cars!!

What a n00bish attitude! try reading up on the FIA RULES concerning "Blue Flags"
LFS is supposed to be a SIMULATOR FFS!! Try simulating the REAL LIFE rules in this instance!
Do you think that Alonso/Schumacher/et all don't get pi$$ed when they come round behind a Minardi? Of course they do, but they WAIT until the opportunity for the tail-ender to move out of the way arrives, and THEN they pass, they don't just barge through regardless. (Well, Schumi might occasionally, but he is a prat!)

I agree with what you have said pasibrzuch. Many of the "fast" drivers are unable or unwilling to react properly to what is happening around them in a race. Some even resemble AI. Often guys like yourself come out second best in these situations, which is frustrating, but dont be discouraged..

I believe that in the long-term, the people that use lfs to simulate motorsport are those that will be around the longest and get the most from it. Whereas those who play it to get fastest laps so that they can say "im faster than you", will soon get bored and do something else.

This is why I enjoy the STCC servers. People are held accountable for these kinds of mistakes. A faster driver can't ram a backmarker who's done everything right up to that point and then flame the guy over chat for "wrecking" them both.

Quote from Bladerunner :

Oh dear. What a shame!

It must be terrible to be held up at a bend/corner/chicane by a slower driver...solution; simple! Just barge straight through and wreck both cars!!

What a n00bish attitude! try reading up on the FIA RULES concerning "Blue Flags"
LFS is supposed to be a SIMULATOR FFS!! Try simulating the REAL LIFE rules in this instance!
Do you think that Alonso/Schumacher/et all don't get pi$$ed when they come round behind a Minardi? Of course they do, but they WAIT until the opportunity for the tail-ender to move out of the way arrives, and THEN they pass, they don't just barge through regardless. (Well, Schumi might occasionally, but he is a prat!)

I think what he means is when you are just driving around killing time that you should let the leaders through without any holding up of any kind. I completely agree, when I join a server and join a race 3 laps in a 5 lap race, if the leaders come up behind me I let them by without compramising them at all because I am only on track getting some laps in for the next restart.

Ovcourse in a longer race the above rules should be used if they are being overlapped simply because they are slower, but if they are 2 or 3 laps behind I think it's pretty stupid holding up the leader when your race is done.

The truth is actually quite funny.. no sooner had I posted that I don't see blue flag spammers any more, than someone called me into one of the STCC servers where.. you guessed it.. someone was spamming "blueflag!lemmepass!!"

I'll get 'em next time

[edit] FTR, I don't penalise people for spamming this.. I just point out that it's expected that they don't do it on STCC servers. We do place a lot of emphasis on respectful driving. Perhaps, being the one most actively addressing these details, you'd expect me to be more cynical. The truth is that it just doesn't happen very often at all. This is why I'm so "up" about the behaviour of people on LFS, these days.. LFSers rock, en masse

Quote from Bawbag :

if the leaders come up behind me I let them by without compramising them at all because I am only on track getting some laps in for the next restart.

I'd agree with you, definitely. I'd consider it much less of a blue flag issue and more of a responsible/respect matter. If you're not at racing speed and not trying to get up to it in the current race, then definitely you should as-good-as pull over, get out your thermos flask and eat the soggy cheese sandwiches your wife packed for you, while the leaders get past

Ovcourse i'd be "trying" to get up with the best pace I could, but if i'm going to in any way compramise the leaders, then yea, i'm aswell eating some soggy cheese sandwiches.

Quote from Bladerunner :

Oh dear. What a shame!

It must be terrible to be held up at a bend/corner/chicane by a slower driver...solution; simple! Just barge straight through and wreck both cars!!

I never said one should barge straight through and im also not a blue flag spammer, but like i said in a short race respect the blue flag and move over before the corner if the flag is shown( the driver concerned must allow the followin pass at the earliest opportunity.).

[flame]biggie knows only to hotlap, other cars disturb him[/flame]


scnr

Hotlapping just like drifting teach skills that do allow one to be a better driver. Either when used too much CAN begin to make other areas of your racecraft suffer. Notice I say Can not Will.

In the past and to a lesser extent today some drivers have put so much effort in to just one of the disiplines that they loos some skill in other areas. A classic example is the dedicated Hotlapper that find it dffacult to deal with traffic or drive a line that deviates from their hones and practiced perfict line. Or the drifter that finds it diffacult to keep the car planted and is thus slow or can't make the tires last.

They are dissaperaing for the most part and people are taking a more ballanced approach to LFS and working eaualy on all the different aspects of what this sim has to offer and in turn the conumity is growing in to a very mature and competitive group. Last night on a TBO server I had some great races on a public server with people I did not know. Everyone showed each other great respect and there was plenty of door to door racing and position swapping to be had.

I find it interesting that there is frequently this artificial division drawn between 'fast lappers' and 'racers'.

Sure there are idiots that want to be fast in front of a captive audience, and will do anything to achieve this. The majority of the faster drivers I've
raced with have been the cleanest drivers as well - clean because clean is fast, and clean because they understand the big picture, and don't suffer
the 'hey look what I just did' mentallity of having to be fastest driver on the track.

But, racing is about winning, or at least doing the best you can.
And winning requires you to go faster than the other cars in the field.
If you don't, you probably won't win, without some odd bit of luck.

These people spamming BLUE FLAG and expecting the world to curl around
their whims are annoying to be sure, but so are people who are not in the race, laps down, not following the same line for two consecutive laps, and
gunning their way into turn one to race someone who's 3 laps ahead.

It's too weird to try to force the issue into 'there are real racers, and then there are just fast lappers'. It's more a case of there are intelligent people and idiots on both sides of the argument.

Quote :

I think that some very fast guys can not drive another raceway they've learned, or react like race driver should react in changing conditions.

i believe this quote.

i suffer that from time to time. in STCC round7 i almost kissed the leader ass because he was using the same line as i was. You can see it in the broadcast.
Repetition gets my mind numb

Quote from Bladerunner :

Do you think that Alonso/Schumacher/et all don't get pi$$ed when they come round behind a Minardi? Of course they do, but they WAIT until the opportunity for the tail-ender to move out of the way arrives, and THEN they pass, they don't just barge through regardless. (Well, Schumi might occasionally, but he is a prat!)

What's a Minardi?
Who's this Schumacher?

You can't mean Ralph, he is a backmarker ...



On topic: as well as numerous instances of that farking annoying "blue flag m00v noob" spam, I've seen a hotlapper abuse the shiz out of a bunch of guys I was racing with once - because we wanted to race. On a SO Classic server with FOXs, we chose to have a moderate wind blowing to make the next batch of races interesting. Our Hero threw what can only be described as a hissy fit: "fu noobs no wind i m going 4 WR!!!!" Of course everyone gave him a rousing chorus of LOLs and (in between flame exchanges) we patiently explained we were there to race, not help some stroppy child go for a WR, and that he could sod off and do it offline if he wanted it that badly. Another minute or so of hissy fits and then he stormed off sulking. LMAO for a week, poor widdle hotlapper :slap:

Of course, not all lappers are like that. However, I think a lot of hotlappers that I've seen online (especially since the introduction of the single-seaters), fanging around, abusing people and spamming their little "blue flag" spams need to pull their heads in and realise that there's a lot more to being a good racer than pure speed. Any monkey can remember a series of input instructions and where and when to do them, but only someone who's actually thinking about what they're doing - and what everyone else is doing - can be a good racer.

I hardly hotlap at all, in any game, unless I'm practising for an upcoming race. Even then I only do it until I've found a fast line and good setup and I'm happy with my knowledge of the track. It doesn't matter to me if I'm one thousandth away from a WR (as if I would be anyway) because that won't matter a chunk of crap if I'm fifth on the grid and get an average start. To me, race-craft - being able to drive as fast and safe as you can with a bunch of other guys who are doing the same - is far more important than laying down hotlaps. After all, race sims are for racing and not endlessly qualifying against noone

There's a distinction that needs to be made here between "hotlappers" who are online racers who are only interested in bettering their PBs, and "hotlappers" who upload WR times they set in single player. I have immense respect for the latter, because it's something I can't do. And I imagine the majority of those super-quick guys would be just as handy in a race as they are offline.

I find that the problem doesn't come from the people who upload WR times, often in a race they are amoung the cleanest. The problem comes from people who think that because its a computer game, you can drive at slow cars and expect them to move over.

I have seen it mostly on Redline Racing servers on Aston Club, people just don't want to slow down for anything. I often back off and brake sharply if the closing speed in a chicane is too high, sometimes I lose positions by being too cautious but 9 times out of 10 I will get a podium without much effort, just by keeping my car dent free. I don't even have a key binded to say 'BLUE FLAG BLUE FLAG MOVE NOOB' I always assume the big text saying BLUE FLAG across their screen will be enough.

Its a shame to let this topic become another blue flag debate. That one is pretty much resolved: the blue flag rule is very easy to understand, so attempting to race an overtaking car when you're a lap down, or conversely, spamming "blue flag" and expecting clear passage are all the actions of a moron. End of story.

I find the original topic much more engaging.... Hotlapping is a discipline all its own. The speed skating of motorsports?? OK, I won't go there... But perhaps the activity of finding the line, adjusting the setup, adjusting the line, just concentrating really carefully on the minutiae makes it the "soul surfing" of motorsports...

Perhaps thats too Romantic though... In real life, there are an infinite number of influences that mean you never really do the same lap twice, a fact that makes consistency even more amazing. A simulation is programmed with a finite number of details, so quite conceivably a hotlapper is programming him/herself to twitch at the appropriate moment on every lap.

I'm with whoever said it above; if someone can get up to speed in any combo, I'm impressed. If someone is doing 1:40.XX on AS3/GTR every night of the week, every week, I'm in "whatever" mode...

Quote from nihil :

I'm with whoever said it above; if someone can get up to speed in any combo, I'm impressed. If someone is doing 1:40.XX on AS3/GTR every night of the week, every week, I'm in "whatever" mode...

this is quite interesting, the last league race we had at conedodgers in division 1 (as3gtr) was amazingly clean

and at the same time, dam fast




enjoyable racing IMO, it was definitely cleaner then the racing i had in the lower divisions (ie with the slower drivers) although i was a second off my usual pace as i tend to swap the gtr cars around each round and IIRC i had been using the XRR all day and then jumped in the FZR for the race without realising


Legends|Lucky Luke = 1:40.000.
[CD] Snapp63 = 1:40.20
Legends|webber = 1:40.37
[CD] D.I.M.O. = 1:40.50
[CD] Subon VW = 1:40.59
sKunk = 1:40.61
[RF]BenjiMC = 1:40.75
[CD] Droemel = 1:40.91
[CD] Paublo = 1:40.93
[CD] Speedy72 = 1:41.08
Klingis = 1:41.27
[CD] K-Kermit = 1:41.31
[CD] Birder = 1:41.70
[CD] Phil R = 1:41.75
[CD]StickyMicky = 1:41.81
[CD] AProst = 1:41.82
[CD] Celmo = 1:42.64