No. STCC is a nice league, I mostly race at STCC hosts, but its rating is not a measurement of a racer's quality. It is a measurement of <number of races>/<average finish position in % to number of racers>. STCC does its good job by isolating wreckers, drivers with no patience and those who drive very badly. Making it "compulsory" to everybody will make slow racers and wreckers part of STCC.
I do think it's something if a misconception that the system is seen to pay off if you persevere long enough even if you only register mediocre results. The points are heavily stacked to the victors with little or nothing given to the midfielders.
/opinion
/opinion
I got 250 points for winning a few times, which was nice, but when I finished mid pack I got like 50, 60, 70 or less, even 8 points!
Just going through the motions will not get you anywhere, you really have to try and finish as high as possible to progress.
Becky, the STCC system has produced a number of things.
Primarily, bloody superb racing. Pick-up races tend to, in my experience, be effectively over after the first two laps or so as the order shakes out and unassailable gaps form, and while this of course happens on the STCC servers also, it seems to be a much less regular occurrence, on the STCC2 servers at least.
Sometimes, especially on enduro nights with pit-stops, you get some absolute hum-dingers - really intense, heart-in-mouth, bumper to bumper action that lasts for, potentially, the entire race. I have replays to that effect. Even the spectators commented.
This is because there's a whole new skillset being used by the drivers; instead of getting a better exit and pulling to the inside at the first possible opportunity, people use something which you don't see very often at all outside of league racing: The application of pressure.
As anyone that has seen an orange car being rather large in their mirrors will know, I like to follow people very closely, both on straights (easy) or through corners (hard). If the person in front is inexperienced, they'll usually go off on their own sooner or later because they're too busy worrying about me to actually focus on the track. If the person in front is able to cope with it, then you can feel a certain confidence with them. You know you're on to a great battle when you feel that you have a ... sort of... memorandum of understanding with the other person - e.g. feeling confident that they know what you're up to when forcing to the outside or the inside etc.
Again, that new skillset is being used: focussing on the track rather than your mirrors while appreciating anyone that may be right on your arse, inching up on people under braking, reading the movements of backmarkers and taking them strategically, reading other peoples lines - knowing when they're intentionally going defensive by taking the inside, having tyre cooling problems etc., dealing with low front grip due to slipstream, knowing when to pull alongside and when not to - and when you are alongside, how to spot a closed door early enough and yield without losing any ground, the importance of trust.... etc.
These skills are being used by the second thing that the STCC has produced: bloody superb people. When I joined the silver server for the first time, after coming third in a 50 minute ky2r UF1 race (never again), I spectated for a race or two and thought that if I were to go out on track, I would crap myself the moment the blue flag message popped up. There was a real weight to it, these other people were the... elder statesmen. I can say now, with some conviction, that since then I've become a better racer to the degree of an order of magnitude, thanks simply to being around other people that the STCC system had previously produced. I'm now aiming to compete in the STCC in season 2, if the number of entries increases and I'm quick enough.
I'm not saying that all of the above can't be found elsewhere - Any league can provide great racing, although with that comes enormous weight - but I've had races on the STCC servers that you won't find anywhere else.
Becky, I really hope you can get all of your problems sorted, it'd be a bloody great shame if the servers went down for a large expanse of time. Devastating, even.
For the people moaning: If you've had a problem with the STCC servers due to other people being idiots, then for god's sake report it. It does work. If you've suffered a glitch in the license system or you've forcibly had your points removed and wish to enquire about it, then bear in mind that Becky has an enormous amount of stuff on her plate at the best of times, and you haranguing her isn't going to get you many answers very quickly. If you're just against the whole idea of objective driven racing in the first place, then that's fair enough, but let me and others tell you that the system works beautifully. Sure, it's not perfect, the points system is always tweakable, but the results speak for themselves.
Wow, that was a longer post (read: ramble) than I set out to write. :P
- Tokartta. STCC Gold licensed. Bloody proud of it, too.
Primarily, bloody superb racing. Pick-up races tend to, in my experience, be effectively over after the first two laps or so as the order shakes out and unassailable gaps form, and while this of course happens on the STCC servers also, it seems to be a much less regular occurrence, on the STCC2 servers at least.
Sometimes, especially on enduro nights with pit-stops, you get some absolute hum-dingers - really intense, heart-in-mouth, bumper to bumper action that lasts for, potentially, the entire race. I have replays to that effect. Even the spectators commented.
This is because there's a whole new skillset being used by the drivers; instead of getting a better exit and pulling to the inside at the first possible opportunity, people use something which you don't see very often at all outside of league racing: The application of pressure.
As anyone that has seen an orange car being rather large in their mirrors will know, I like to follow people very closely, both on straights (easy) or through corners (hard). If the person in front is inexperienced, they'll usually go off on their own sooner or later because they're too busy worrying about me to actually focus on the track. If the person in front is able to cope with it, then you can feel a certain confidence with them. You know you're on to a great battle when you feel that you have a ... sort of... memorandum of understanding with the other person - e.g. feeling confident that they know what you're up to when forcing to the outside or the inside etc.
Again, that new skillset is being used: focussing on the track rather than your mirrors while appreciating anyone that may be right on your arse, inching up on people under braking, reading the movements of backmarkers and taking them strategically, reading other peoples lines - knowing when they're intentionally going defensive by taking the inside, having tyre cooling problems etc., dealing with low front grip due to slipstream, knowing when to pull alongside and when not to - and when you are alongside, how to spot a closed door early enough and yield without losing any ground, the importance of trust.... etc.
These skills are being used by the second thing that the STCC has produced: bloody superb people. When I joined the silver server for the first time, after coming third in a 50 minute ky2r UF1 race (never again), I spectated for a race or two and thought that if I were to go out on track, I would crap myself the moment the blue flag message popped up. There was a real weight to it, these other people were the... elder statesmen. I can say now, with some conviction, that since then I've become a better racer to the degree of an order of magnitude, thanks simply to being around other people that the STCC system had previously produced. I'm now aiming to compete in the STCC in season 2, if the number of entries increases and I'm quick enough.
I'm not saying that all of the above can't be found elsewhere - Any league can provide great racing, although with that comes enormous weight - but I've had races on the STCC servers that you won't find anywhere else.
Becky, I really hope you can get all of your problems sorted, it'd be a bloody great shame if the servers went down for a large expanse of time. Devastating, even.
For the people moaning: If you've had a problem with the STCC servers due to other people being idiots, then for god's sake report it. It does work. If you've suffered a glitch in the license system or you've forcibly had your points removed and wish to enquire about it, then bear in mind that Becky has an enormous amount of stuff on her plate at the best of times, and you haranguing her isn't going to get you many answers very quickly. If you're just against the whole idea of objective driven racing in the first place, then that's fair enough, but let me and others tell you that the system works beautifully. Sure, it's not perfect, the points system is always tweakable, but the results speak for themselves.
Wow, that was a longer post (read: ramble) than I set out to write. :P
- Tokartta. STCC Gold licensed. Bloody proud of it, too.
For the people moaning about people moaning: Your moaning is just as dull and repetitive as anybody else's. If not more so, because there are more of you doing it.
Woohoo! That's a glowing endorsement if ever I saw one! LOL!
I do absolutely accept that the STCC isn't for everyone, as I've said before.. I don't (and Becky doesn't) throw my time at the STCC system for them. We do it for Tokartta, and all the other drivers for whom the STCC is something they really enjoy. It's worth every minute.
Anyone could say anything negative right now, and I just wouldn't care (not that I'm exactly affected by negatives, even on my worst days).. cuz I can always go back and read Tokartta's post
Oh.. and no, that wasn't an invite for a load of insults
I do absolutely accept that the STCC isn't for everyone, as I've said before.. I don't (and Becky doesn't) throw my time at the STCC system for them. We do it for Tokartta, and all the other drivers for whom the STCC is something they really enjoy. It's worth every minute.
Anyone could say anything negative right now, and I just wouldn't care (not that I'm exactly affected by negatives, even on my worst days).. cuz I can always go back and read Tokartta's post
Oh.. and no, that wasn't an invite for a load of insults
Nahh Kev, I agree with Tokartta.. if people see bad driving on the STCC, we DO want them to report it. http://licence.ukct.net/report.asp
Notice to everyone that is saying "compulsory" or "forced" STCC that I didnt say that, to me it should be like another OPTION in the game, but definetly BUILT-IN.
I mean, come on, take LFSWorld for example... its a great part of the game but dont you think its kinda wasted with all those hotlap rankings, thats not racing, thats... well... hotlapping. And if that wasnt enough theres like a whole system of Nutter Rank, Nationality rank and all... come on!
And for the real racing theres only a mini-rank with the "most wins in a month" people that race in 2 people races (not all, I know, but you get my point). I mean I like to see fast laps too but dont you think theres something missing?
Dont get me wrong though, I love LFS, I been racing it since it started, I just think that this, if its done correctly, could improve the overall LFS experience a lot for a lot of people like me, thats all.
I mean, come on, take LFSWorld for example... its a great part of the game but dont you think its kinda wasted with all those hotlap rankings, thats not racing, thats... well... hotlapping. And if that wasnt enough theres like a whole system of Nutter Rank, Nationality rank and all... come on!
And for the real racing theres only a mini-rank with the "most wins in a month" people that race in 2 people races (not all, I know, but you get my point). I mean I like to see fast laps too but dont you think theres something missing?
Dont get me wrong though, I love LFS, I been racing it since it started, I just think that this, if its done correctly, could improve the overall LFS experience a lot for a lot of people like me, thats all.
O well, take it easy, guys. STCC is free, and we get that as our bonus to LFS, either you like it or not. Becky is not asking for any fee nor any pre-requisites. Why the hell do people moaning about this or that? If it is compulsory to the game, then maybe you can complain that. However, you can just ignore those STCC servers if you do not like them.
Hey, make your days by watching some hilarious clips on youtube. It's kinda pointless to insult anyone over here.
Hey, make your days by watching some hilarious clips on youtube. It's kinda pointless to insult anyone over here.
I agree
This would be a tough one. If indeed the RSA software did get put into the game, it would open up a whole can of worms and everyone would be trying to get their mod into the game, no matter what the quality, turning in the direction of how RFactor is being handled with it's sub-par mods that most people usually wait until the first patch comes out to even bother trying it...
Becky has created and is in the process of creating an MMO type feel, at least to me, that comes from her experience in MMO's like EQ, to LFS while addressing the issues of drivers behaving badly by creating a sim authority that people can turn to when a dispute arises over someone’s driving behavior among other things on the book =)
(Everyone keeps using STCC, which is partially correct, STCC events are sanctioned by the SRA(Sim Racing Authority). The STCC sponsored servers use the SRA software to keep track of licenses, it could be said that the STCC is the SRA, but technically it's not and the SRA rides above the STCC, creating a governing body over the Logitech Sim Touring Car Cup. Basically the SRA is the sim version of the FIA to the STCC and who knows possibly other leagues aswell =)
Rayo, I get what you mean
On the simplest level (I imagine the devs begin shaking their heads slowly, every time someone suggests something they think is "simple")..
In a host config:
/mode=s2c
/league=STCC
In LFS, click "Career" mode, and all the servers running in career mode appear, and which league they're governed by.. those you have enough points for are listed in green, those you don't are listed in red.. you join and race.
It's actually quite appealing, when I look at it in the simplest of ways
On the simplest level (I imagine the devs begin shaking their heads slowly, every time someone suggests something they think is "simple")..
In a host config:
/mode=s2c
/league=STCC
In LFS, click "Career" mode, and all the servers running in career mode appear, and which league they're governed by.. those you have enough points for are listed in green, those you don't are listed in red.. you join and race.
It's actually quite appealing, when I look at it in the simplest of ways
Should really clarify that the "SRA" tag facilitates the additional car classes planned for the system.. the single seaters, GTRs etc. There are no plans to mass-govern anyone else's servers by deciding to be a governing body over non-participants
Yeah I love the idea =) Lets hope there is a way for the SRA to be put into LFS in some shape or form, hopefully with Becky behind the till =) Maybe they could outsource it Banshee Studio's for a version of the SRA to be put into LFS =)
Hehe yeah, thats not even to say Becky is ready to do that yet, if at all =) But the foundation is there.
And for the people moaning about people moaning about people moaning: Your moaning is even worse as it's just following a moaning about people moaning trend!
:sheep:
I'm pretty much with vykos on this. STCC is an impressive achievement, and it's capable of producing great racing. I admire the work that's gone into it, and I like that it's there to use or not use as we see fit. I don't think it should be built into the game, for the reasons he listed.
Sorry to hear about your troubles, Becky. Fingers crossed for you.
Sorry to hear about your troubles, Becky. Fingers crossed for you.
Don't you find it ironic that now we got rid of the credits (and even that you had to unlock the better cars back in S1), very much people want it back (and basically relive it through the STCC)?
As much as I respect the STCC, personally, I like Burnzoire's suggestion way better... Anyway, I don't like the idea of "I have to progress to a better class first before I can lay my hands on some really fun cars", I really like the variety of LfS' online play and it would be a shame limiting it with some system like STCC's... Once the AI is finished, it would make for a good campaign mode though...
As much as I respect the STCC, personally, I like Burnzoire's suggestion way better... Anyway, I don't like the idea of "I have to progress to a better class first before I can lay my hands on some really fun cars", I really like the variety of LfS' online play and it would be a shame limiting it with some system like STCC's... Once the AI is finished, it would make for a good campaign mode though...
There are some features of the STCC which should be part of the full game. Race auto-restarts and track cycling, the ability to deny entry to AI cars and cars with passengers (and if it where possible, those non race suited driver skins).
The progression system would never have taken off on the STCC if it wasn't for the fact that the servers solved two fundamental issues with the game.
After the end of each 5 minute race it could take anywhere up to 15 minutes to get another race going.
Day in and day out you could only get a race on the same car+track combo.
By solving this the other aspects of the STCC where able to be deployed, like endurance night, the tiered progression system, driver aid limitations, and so on.
In it's entirety there would be no reason for STCC to be incorporated into LFS, however some of it's ideas could and indeed should be in LFS. Some already are - I hope you are all enjoying your reserved admin slots for instance.
Between server Private Messaging and channels would be hugely powerful, although sadly I think the STCC servers will die before they're ever fully off the ground, atm they only work on the experimental server - but LFS should have these.
The progression system would never have taken off on the STCC if it wasn't for the fact that the servers solved two fundamental issues with the game.
After the end of each 5 minute race it could take anywhere up to 15 minutes to get another race going.
Day in and day out you could only get a race on the same car+track combo.
By solving this the other aspects of the STCC where able to be deployed, like endurance night, the tiered progression system, driver aid limitations, and so on.
In it's entirety there would be no reason for STCC to be incorporated into LFS, however some of it's ideas could and indeed should be in LFS. Some already are - I hope you are all enjoying your reserved admin slots for instance.
Between server Private Messaging and channels would be hugely powerful, although sadly I think the STCC servers will die before they're ever fully off the ground, atm they only work on the experimental server - but LFS should have these.
Another area where LFS could facilitate STCC and similar systems is the administration of licenses. A "licensed" server would send its scoring (points + promotions) to LFSW. At the output side, LFSW would provide a webpage to show the status of someone's license(s), and a query service where servers can retrieve the license status. For the end-user, this would look as if licenses were integrated into LFS.
On the server side, the situation would remain as it is with STCC: a third-party add-on manages the races on the server, and LFS only provides the "hooks". Server admins would still be free to choose: whether to work with licenses or not, the scoring method, limitations on car & track choice, penalties, etc.
Certainly not! I don't think ban first and then might answer some questions later mentality should spread wider than it already is. Anyone remember case, where group of people were rewarded with lifetime ban for LFS bug? Ok, bans were removed, eventually.
And what way was this put:
Everything can be expressed in different ways. Only way that I understand this, is LFS shouldn't evolve because insim applications need a rewrite!? To my knowledge most unofficial addons must be updated when bigger patches come. LFS is unfinished/constantly evolving. If "programmers" don't relize that, before starting their work - it's their problem.
without bringing this back up again - its was not an LFS bug they were banned for, but abusing a bug they knew existed, and were doing intentionally
did she ever say it shouldn't evolve? No, she said she was given a "head start" on InSim, and it changed again, and now she doesn't have time (atm) to fix it
Please don't try to skew what she said into something she didn't
WOW a fresh enemy, ok um...
When we first spotted this activity we contacted the developers and with them concluded what we thought happened. I tried speaking to the driver but was met with silence. Further the driver would not stop driving and was causing additional incidents, so I applied a short term ban to seek advise from the devs - and the theory was that the driver had renamed their track files. It was not known to us or the devs that there was a possibility of drivers being on the wrong track.
Then incidents of odd lap records ocassionally occurred, some times these where definately intentional exploits using barrier flipping to register a fast time, we've seen this done, there is also the issue of cutting. Again where possible we contacted the drivers, we even added the admin announce feature onto our servers to facilitate this.
When it can to light that there was a bug in LFS that could see a driver on the wrong track on a circuit change we immediately repealed all bans of this sort, unfortunately including those which where done intentionally by barrier hoping and cutting - because we could not tell which reason led to the ban.
Are we some how in the wrong? We made every effort to contact drivers involved with these issues - infact that is how the bug eventually came to light.
If drivers respond to us with a wall of silence then just what on earth are we meant to do about it?
I have not, anywhere or at any time, expressed that LFS development should wait for STCC. In fact when speaking on this subject in the last week or two I have expressely stated that the changes in insim will greatly enhance it for the future. The only snag is that in the short term we have a problem in adapting to the new technology because of reasons to do with my personal life.
I relish the opportunity to dive into the new Insim when I get the chance. I'll be able to do some great new things for you guys - except of course, for you specifically - as clearly you wont be interested in coming anywhere near the servers - but for everyone who isn't belligerently flaming the work i've done for the sake of it, some cool new stuff is now possible.
It just isn't likely i'll be in a position to launch when patch X arrives. If you in any way feel that means LFS should wait for my life - then you think more of the importance of the STCC than I do.
When we first spotted this activity we contacted the developers and with them concluded what we thought happened. I tried speaking to the driver but was met with silence. Further the driver would not stop driving and was causing additional incidents, so I applied a short term ban to seek advise from the devs - and the theory was that the driver had renamed their track files. It was not known to us or the devs that there was a possibility of drivers being on the wrong track.
Then incidents of odd lap records ocassionally occurred, some times these where definately intentional exploits using barrier flipping to register a fast time, we've seen this done, there is also the issue of cutting. Again where possible we contacted the drivers, we even added the admin announce feature onto our servers to facilitate this.
When it can to light that there was a bug in LFS that could see a driver on the wrong track on a circuit change we immediately repealed all bans of this sort, unfortunately including those which where done intentionally by barrier hoping and cutting - because we could not tell which reason led to the ban.
Are we some how in the wrong? We made every effort to contact drivers involved with these issues - infact that is how the bug eventually came to light.
If drivers respond to us with a wall of silence then just what on earth are we meant to do about it?
I have not, anywhere or at any time, expressed that LFS development should wait for STCC. In fact when speaking on this subject in the last week or two I have expressely stated that the changes in insim will greatly enhance it for the future. The only snag is that in the short term we have a problem in adapting to the new technology because of reasons to do with my personal life.
I relish the opportunity to dive into the new Insim when I get the chance. I'll be able to do some great new things for you guys - except of course, for you specifically - as clearly you wont be interested in coming anywhere near the servers - but for everyone who isn't belligerently flaming the work i've done for the sake of it, some cool new stuff is now possible.
It just isn't likely i'll be in a position to launch when patch X arrives. If you in any way feel that means LFS should wait for my life - then you think more of the importance of the STCC than I do.
Bans were removed as soon as it was established *by us* that it was due to an LFS bug. AFAIK, it hasn't been addressed as yet, and that means that the unbans were given IN SPITE of the LFSW evidence to show cheating.
What a bizarre way to interpret what Becky said. In fact, what a bizarre way of thinking, period.
A bit dramatic, tbh. Just another person with a contrary view. One I'm having difficulty making sense of, but not everyone can be on the same wavelength.
I think you're misinterpreting his response. He just thought it sounded like Becky was complaining because the InSim API had changed twice in two test patches. He was making the point that anybody designing an add-on to work with an unfinished API can expect problems.
This thread is closed
Shouldnt the STCC system be part of the LFS official game?
(116 posts, closed, started )
FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG