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Westhill laptimes in the FZ50 GTR
Hi,

Just after some input regarding laptimes in the FZ50 GTR on the Westhill track. With the default setup, i can only get my laptimes down to 1:40:50. I've tried pushing harder and harder but always seem to get 1:40 or above.
Keen to see other peoples laptimes and any tricks with the circuit and car combination.

I'm using a G25 racing wheel as my controller.

Thanks guys.
Shoujiki.
I think the best thing to do to improve your laptimes is mess around with the setups abit...
The default setups are not pretty good, so you should look for a setup and tweak it until you like it.

And what helps me quite a bit is if I'll just race for my own, so press SHIFT+F (turns off all the info on the screen) and just drive smooth and constantly.


Your times will improve soon
http://setupfield.teaminferno.hu/

Increase tire pressure, decrease camber (on most of those setups), learn as much as you can about the track and car, then start to push.
Well, you're actually 12 seconds slower than the WR, which is quite a lot. Currently your best bet is practising more, and comparing your lap to the WR to see where you lose most time. Maybe try a "Test drive" of the WR setup used, if you're much faster with this then get the setup from the setupfield (it might not be the same, but probably a good bit faster than the one you currently use).
Go to LFS World and download the world record hot laps. Watch what they do. You won't be able to do the same thing, but you will learn the line and what to look for. Test drive their cars to see what it feels like.

Go to the Team Inferno site and download some setups and see what you like.

Then, if you really want a critique, post a replay of your driving with a few laps in it.
#7 - nihil
I know this is contrary to what everyone else is saying, but don't bother messing around with setups for the moment. With the Race_S setup, its fairly simple to get into the low 30s, if you just concentrate on your line.

Look for the blue cones dotted around Westhill. They mark your approximate turning in point.
Use the replay analyzer to compare your best lap with the world record lap. You should be able to tell right away where you're losing time (my bet is the chicane, and the two big braking zones).
#9 - JJ72
Quote from Cue-Ball :Use the replay analyzer to compare your best lap with the world record lap. You should be able to tell right away where you're losing time (my bet is the chicane, and the two big braking zones).

while you are 12 second off pace, I bet it would be everywhere. cos in average you lose more than a second each corner!

I say don't care with setup and replay analyzing..cos messing with something you don't understand will just add confusion, just go and drive! watch a replay and get a GENERAL IDEA (don't even THINK about getting the same brake point and cornering speed right away) of the track, then polish your driving. There must be something lacking in your knowledge of car control and the concept of getting fast to achieve such time difference, so you must drive a lot and drive with focus, focus on what you are doing, find consistency and control instead of outright speed, because most of the time it's little driving errors that cost you most of the time, learn to drive a clean lap might already help you get within 4 sec to the WR already.
Hi,

Thanks for the replies guys! Really helped me alot.
What i think i'll do first, as JJ72 suggested, is watch a few replays and try to polish my driving first with a current setup. See if i can get consistent. It's certainly true that the smaller mistakes add up! After i see some results from this, then i'll look at adjusting the car setup. Before i can do that though, i really need to test out what each part of the setup does. I'm not quite sure what adjusting say, toe in, or increasing negative camber but having softer tyres will do etc... All these different variables.
I know that through the chicane i could be quicker, i'm usually dropping back to 3rd and shifting to 4th while exiting. The hard left corner after the chicane (and the one before the main straight), i find i select second gear, and use engine braking alot...clutching out and skidding the wheels to slow down. Usually makes the rear end feel loose. This also feels like an area where i'm loosing time. I think i brake too early, so i don't end up in the litter.
Anyways thanks again for the replies! much appreciated! Now to go refine my skills!

Seeyuz,
Shoujiki
#11 - Davo
If you want a good setup and some tips drop me a PM and I'll be glad to help out and meet up ona server for some driving.
Hi,

Thanks for the offer Davo! I'll definetly take you up on that!

I just did a few laps and saved the replay so if anyone wants to see what i'm doing. The first lap is just for warm up of the tyres and whatnot. The second i spin out! Argh! The third is quicker and cleaner but still not up to scratch and the fourth lap is the fastest one (lap 4 of 3 in the race), getting a 1:40:16.

Thanks again guys.


Seeyuz,
Shoujiki
Attached files
1_40_16.spr - 124.3 KB - 321 views
#13 - JJ72
I guess you ain't so sure about the racing line yet? cos you seems to be heading into the unknown when you steer into a corner, sometimes you steer too late and have to correct understeer, sometime too early and you have to slow right down. I think you do understand the consequence of steering too much mid corner, comparing lap 2 (which is completely ragged) to lap 4, you know you should steer smoother, however there are still places when you try to recover the car that your suddenly movement cause problems, for example at the slow chicane, I think it's down to lack of experience in anticipating what the car will do.

The most obvious thing to work on is though, find out the right line first, you start by focusing on where you brake - sometimes you brake in the middle of the track, sometimes a car width to the edge, you should brake using the full width of the track and allow yourself a wider line into the corner, which allow you to carry more speed. So pay attention to where you brake every time,find your braking point when you are on the straight and anticipate what you should do.

When you are braking, avoid any lock ups, cause it destroy what you have been setting up,you will be forced to correct it and miss your ideal line. Then, find the apex of the turn, move to it precisely and once pass it, accelerate decisively. On the fast corner it's generally alright, there are space for more speed but that's for later. For the slow chicane though, you tend to stay too close to the apex and have to slow down a lot, because you are running a very small radius compare to what you should be doing, and to make up the lost speed you jump on the throttle too hard, upsetting the balance yet again, you should brake on the right side, do most of your braking in the straight line,then cut into the apex WITH your mind set on the exit of it, meaning that you should find a line that allow you to stablize the car right after the apex,to be prepared for the right turn ahead. you will have to control the sideway momentum and steering angle throughout the sequence in the turn, it should be rapid at the entry, then gentle near the apex.

the last turn in similiar,your apex is too early, because you hug the inside too much when braking, again brake on the right, turn into the apex with more speed and compare to your current run - try to complete more directional change before the apex, because after the apex you want good clean acceleration, so you will prefer the car to be straight and spend less grip used for turning, hence you should do most of the turning before the apex and less for the exit, there's a balance to catch in what is the fastest way around. But it shouldn't be hard to notice which way is faster.
#14 - Davo
yup, the main thing holding you back is the setup. The R3s are way too cold and hard to provide enough grip. It looks like you're using the H-shifter, that also is slower than using sequential shifting or the paddles since yopu have to concentrate on clutch etc. instead of where you're going snd what you're doing. The best I managed while test driving that set and using the H-shifter was a 1.41. It makes braking complete hell since I'm used to left foot braking.
#15 - JJ72
don't think anyone should blame the setup unless he is sequeezing at least 95% of the performance of the package though...setup can be a can of worm. if you don't know what you want from a setup change, and what causes thingsto happen, you rather not mess with it.
#16 - Davo
Well that setup is absolute rubbish and only a waste of time. I'm not saying your points are valid but his times aren't going to get that much better with that setup. It's actually proabably the opposite of all the good FZR sets.
If he really is 12 seconds slower than the wr, the setup won't make much difference. But I wouldn't practise with the default setups, they make the driving unnecessarily hard

First I want to say this:
Using the three pedals effectively you need to apply some throttle right before lifting the clutch on downshift. On you replay, I noticed that you locked your rear tires because of the engine braking was too hard. There is a driving technique about three pedals and it is called heel-and-toe and it takes quite a time to master with H-gate shifters and all . I know you must like the H-shifter but for starters I would recommend the sequental shifting with autoclutch. This allows you to concentrate on the driving more than the actual driving controls .

What I suggest is this:
Download one of these setups here
open that setup in LFS, add more downforce to front and rear. After that you should have a fast setup that also has some extra grip, although it isn't as fast on the straights.

After that, go back on track. Try to follow the lines in the WR replay and try to drive as much the same line as possible. When you seem to rmember where the line is, build up speed slowly. Memorize your braking points and try to find the apex of the corner. After the apex you should be getting back on full power but as Jackie Stewart has said: "don't push the throttle pedal any deeper unless you know that you won't have to lift off". It is also important to be very gentle with the throttle

Just drive more and the time will go down easier than you think
Hi,

Thanks for the help guys! Definetly helping me alot. I've printed out the replies and am following the suggestions while i drive.
I sure do love the H gate shifter! Even though its probobly slower and harder to concentrate!
Locking the rear tyres on downshift to 2nd is a problem because it makes the rear end quite loose, stuffs up my line for the next corner and drops speed too much.
Just did another flying lap with the default setup. Managed a 1:38:53 on the last lap (lap 3). Slowly getting there!

All the help has been fantastic! You guys are awesome.

Seeyuz,
Shoujiki
Attached files
1_38_53.spr - 65.8 KB - 218 views
Quote from Davo :If you want a good setup and some tips drop me a PM and I'll be glad to help out and meet up ona server for some driving.

I would also like to offer any help. If you guys join a server give me a yell, id like to have a race... perhaps help improve your lines?

Not many aussies join public servers so its good to have a no-lag race.
My PB is from quite some time ago at 1:31.72. Not all that fast, but fast enough for me. I have no idea what the WR is. I was thinking somewhere in the 1:29's. Duh, I forget how much faster DSL is from my dialup of 2 days ago. LFSW much faster to load now, LOL. WR is 1:28.71, so I'm 3 seconds off.

I haven't been racing FZR much lately, and that is always a big hindrance when I jump back into it. But I gave the default a go and my first lap (ever with any default set) was 1:38.24. Now I have over 1000 laps at Westhill, so I do know the braking, entry, and exit points. I know the track quite well. My driving looked quite a bit like Shoujiki's. It looked like I was unsure of myself because I was utterly unsure of the setup. The default set gave me absolute no feeling as to what the car was going to do, thus I was pushing way out, then getting loose in the next corner. Thus, I think even for a new LFS racer, the default sets are a big hindrance on learning and getting faster.

Incidentally, my 1:38.24 lap was the lap that the car pushed way through the grass and I ran along the wall way off the track coming off turn 2 (counting the small full throttle right hander off the S/F straight turn 1).

New guys seem to like my setup. It has just a slight bit of oversteer, I more or less 4 wheel drift through the corners with an early turn-in with it. It wouldn't be oversteery enough for the ultra fast guys. But you can try it if you'd like. It's set up with R3's on the rear as I seem to burn up R2's even in short 5 lappers.

It may be fast enough for you, yet stable enough with enough feeling to be able to learn the track and car better without second guessing what the heck that default set is going to do. I know for me, there is no way I'd finish a 5 lapper with that default set. It has no feeling to what the car is going to do.
Attached files
FZ50 GTR_Westhill.set - 132 B - 988 views
Hi,

Thanks guys! We had a great 2 or so hour session on the TeamXFR server. Learnt quite a bit from Davo. His setup suited me quite well i think. I found Nighthawk's to be a bit too oversteery. Can't wait to get onto the track again with you guys for some more tutoring! haha.

Seeyuz,
Shoujiki
#22 - Vain
I checked your LFSWorld stats and it reports 121 Miles for you. You propably practiced more offline, but I'd suggest enriching your experience mostly with driving other cars and tracks.
What I'm aiming at is that you should try to learn more about how momentum and tyres work in LFS. Once you can imagin what the virtual car is doing in your head you'll find it a lot easier to drive good laptimes quickly. That alone should get you within 3 seconds of the WR easily. After that you may need more practice and some setup-knowledge.
I learned that after I wasted about 500 laps at FZ5/Aston Nat and never got closer to the WR than 2.5-3 seconds. After a small route through LFS for 2 months I narrowed that gap down to .5 within 15 laps. So practice isn't everything in LFS. Additionally you need to be able to imagin how the virtual car behaves. That either means you try everything out or you read up a bit on vehicle dynamics.
I study engineering, so approaching driving from the viewpoint of vehicle dynamics comes natural to me. I don't know how much it'll help you.
(By the way this is a nice strategy to keep concentrated. In endurance runs I keep thinking about differentials, ARBs, spring rates and dampers and before I know it I drove an hour at pb pace. )

Vain
Quote from Vain :I checked your LFSWorld stats and it reports 121 Miles for you. You propably practiced more offline, but I'd suggest enriching your experience mostly with driving other cars and tracks.
What I'm aiming at is that you should try to learn more about how momentum and tyres work in LFS. Once you can imagin what the virtual car is doing in your head you'll find it a lot easier to drive good laptimes quickly. That alone should get you within 3 seconds of the WR easily. After that you may need more practice and some setup-knowledge.
I learned that after I wasted about 500 laps at FZ5/Aston Nat and never got closer to the WR than 2.5-3 seconds. After a small route through LFS for 2 months I narrowed that gap down to .5 within 15 laps. So practice isn't everything in LFS. Additionally you need to be able to imagin how the virtual car behaves. That either means you try everything out or you read up a bit on vehicle dynamics.
I study engineering, so approaching driving from the viewpoint of vehicle dynamics comes natural to me. I don't know how much it'll help you.
(By the way this is a nice strategy to keep concentrated. In endurance runs I keep thinking about differentials, ARBs, spring rates and dampers and before I know it I drove an hour at pb pace. )

Vain

LOL, that also happenst to me, even if i'm not studying engineering, but i think i have some base knowledges, so i can barely figure out what the car is doing...

Yesterday i tried the FZR on Westhill for the first time with RACE_S setup and 100kg ballast, and got 1:38, 1:39, even if i never drove this combo...
Not specific to the combo in the thread title, but I am still a mostly RACE_S setup driver, as i'm improving my PB's by just racing, rather than tweaking.

With the inferno setups, most of these lean towards hotlapping yes? Is there a way to make them more "general" i.e. a low gear ratio setup (e.g. Fern bay club style tracks), and a higher gear setup (e.g. blackwood gp).

Is it just winding the pressure up and letting off some camber? I know bits and bobs about setups, and what each setting does, but not enough to really faff and know if i'm improving or just getting better at driving a tragic setup
#25 - Vain
@Quietus:
Wether an inferno-set can be turned into a race setup depends on the set.
Some hotlapping-sets are merely normal sets with rediculously low tyre pressure and excessive camer. Others are abominations to the god of vehicle dynamics and drive about as well as a monster-truck around a slalom-track.
After trying out a couple of sets you quickly get to know those set-authors that make sets you like and learn to filter out the others.

I personally always drive the same set everywhere. I only adjust the final drive and every other setting I feel like changing. That doesn't make me the quickest driver on the server, but I like the process.

Vain
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