Quote from mrodgers :

In my eyes, all a ladder system means is some people have time to race more than others. Look at me with STCC. I've seen the comments and signatures where others state "Gold license in 5 days!" or similar. I've been on STCC servers for 3-4 months now and I'm only at Silver with a long way to go to Gold.

For me, the STCC system served only to have races restarted in a timely manner with the autorestart and different track selections with the auto rotation. The licenses and points mean nothing to me, especially since I frequent the XFG/RG server mainly. I like the racing (last night was great racing) and like the automatic restart/rotation.

People would simply move up in any ranking system, not based on their ability, skill, or racing, but based on the amount of time they spend racing. That isn't a ranking at all.

I'm not dissing any ideas of a system such as this. I'm just stating what it looks like in my eyes. If I was 20 years old without a job, without overtime, without a wife, without kids, without a house to maintain, without cars to maintain, without other hobbies, without baseball practice to go to, without a set time for the family to sit down and eat dinner, without all those other responsiblilties and was able to race LFS for hours and hours on end every day and evening after school or whatever, then I surely would be much further in my STCC/UKCTRA licensing rank.

Exactly my thoughts...

@Tweak: People will also try to get in front at all cost, just to brag with their status/licences/points... mrodgers named one more innocent example, I'm sure there is way more where that came from...

@ Blas89: I think I've seen that ass somewere...

Edit: Sorry, I just had to do it...

Quote from Rayo :

Shoe Maker: Im sorry but that´s my opinion, if you are considering closing your servers because of 1 person opinion then go ahead, its your server. What I was writing about is having an alternative to those kind of servers.

You are free to talk about having alternatives if you like, but there is no need to rip the shit out of my servers or my admins in the process, if you don't like my servers, then stay the hell out them, no need to come on here bashing my servers and post all the crap you said in your first post, that's not an opinion, that's just straight forward abuse.

Talking about an alternative sounds something like 'I wish we had an alternative to Redline servers'.... see the difference ?

It's my opinion that you should run you own servers, because your banned from mine.

Quote from Shoe Maker :

You are free to talk about having alternatives if you like, but there is no need to rip the shit out of my servers or my admins in the process, if you don't like my servers, then stay the hell out them, no need to come on here bashing my servers and post all the crap you said in your first post, that's not an opinion, that's just straight forward abuse.

Talking about an alternative sounds something like 'I wish we had an alternative to Redline servers'.... see the difference ?

It's my opinion that you should run you own servers, because your banned from mine.

I fully agree. No more bashing of servers and admins or anyone else on the forum. The forum is going downhill very quickly as of late.

Quote from Rayo :

Rigun: Little clown, try reading a bit before posting, ok? My previous thread was closed because ppl started fighting each other over STCC bans and I didnt get a proper answer to my question. Now that I got one it is safe for you to go back to your little fantasy world (macondo, lfsla or whatever you call it this days) and keep running there with your girlfriends, Im not going back even if I was being paid to do it. Kisses.

Yes your old thread was deviated from it's original topic, just like this one, a nice repeating pattern that's built in that brain of yours. I'll just tell you that by being a bully you wont get anything from this community, so you'd better think about the way you express yourself and maybe in a not too distant future you'll get some answers in your threads.

EDIT: By the way it is not necessary to write the messages in spanish and english, we both speak english so be it.

Quote from Shoe Maker :

You are free to talk about having alternatives if you like, but there is no need to rip the shit out of my servers or my admins in the process, if you don't like my servers, then stay the hell out them, no need to come on here bashing my servers and post all the crap you said in your first post, that's not an opinion, that's just straight forward abuse.

Talking about an alternative sounds something like 'I wish we had an alternative to Redline servers'.... see the difference ?

It's my opinion that you should run you own servers, because your banned from mine.

I think that with my comments I already implied that you need to change A LOT in your servers before banning me from them affects me in any way.

Quote from Rayo :

I think that with my comments I already implied that you need to change A LOT in your servers before banning me from them affects me in any way.

You seem to have used my servers a lot in the past, or wait... are you another one of these mouthy know-it-all's that just say bad things about a server even though they have never been on it ?

Run your own server if you think you can do a better job, my servers are full for a reason, and they will still be full without arrogant fools like you.

Either way, Im not getting in to a debate about this, there are lots of servers I don't like on LFS, I simply don't use them, you don't see me comming on here bleating on about them, just imagine how full of crap the forum would be if everyone made a post about each of the servers they didn't like!

People that pay for servers are free to run them how ever they choose, they are not there just for your benefit, just because you bought an S2 licence, that DOES NOT automatically give you the right to use servers that I pay for, I choose to run my servers as pubic ones, thats up to me, and it has nothing to do with YOU.

It seems that RiGun knows you well from his post in this thread, he is right, you are just a trouble maker, and with the attitude you are showing here, I believe what he says about you getting banned from the other servers and forum.

It's rapidly becomming my opinion that you should be banned from these forums and at the same time, banned from all LFS servers, I didn't even know you before today and now I have that opinion of you, nice going.

Now leave me, and my servers, ALONE, for the last time, don't like 'em ? don't use 'em, its THAT simple.

How am I going to use them if you just banned me? Man, try to make some sense or please refrain from posting on this topic. You are about to join my Clowns List otherwise.

Quote from mrodgers :

No more bashing of servers and admins or anyone else on the forum. The forum is going downhill very quickly as of late.

Roger that.

This was an interesting thread for about five minutes, then the bitch-slapping started. Newsflash, kids: noone here cares about whatever beef you have with each other and noone here wants yet another thread locked (though that looks inevitable). Take it to PMs if you have to keep it going, this crap certainly shouldn't be public.

How do you expect Shoe Maker not to post when your slagging off her servers. Redline has taken a lot of needless abuse in the past on this forum, there is a website and forum for you to post any suggestions or complaints. www.team-redline.co.uk

Now stick to your original topic about official ladders, leave out all this rubbish about Redlines servers.

Quote from Shoe Maker :

It's exactly the kind of attitude that causes all the good servers to be closed down, the people spending their own time and money to run them feel they are wasting their time and it's not being appreciated, I totally understand why Becky did what she did with the STCC and it's because of comments like yours.
Redline EVO

We run busy servers on GTR's and i totally agree with you. The problem is that when someone gets S2 they automatically want to try the full servers and find ours or yours.

Over the past few weeks the level of noob driving has gone down, the amount of noobs with 15km on their stats that are demanding sets, have no idea of racing rules and then tell us how to run our servers is just amazing.

It often happens that you have to give out a few 12 hour bans to get a race that gets past T1.

As to those people who keep demanding we change the combo's "why" we supply what people want.

If i have a server set on a "uncommon combo" and its always empty so if you want to use one fined some others in the same mind.

Well said Shoe Maker

As to official ladders -1 from me as this should be a server operated thing and not part of the game.

If there was a official ladder it would have to cover every combo not just the ones you like and that would have to include AS3 on GTR's, AS2 on FOX and the oval on BF1

And as that would also have to count the MRT round KYgp and the BF1 round AS1 as someone will want them, count me out

Quote :

the morons that disobey blue flag all the time or crash you before even first turn

Funny you should say that I was watching you earlier on the Redline BL server and you did all of above and a lot more all in technicolour MPR.

Surely because of the insane lag there was that last day, it was unplayable almost.

Anyway, back on topic, if you guys wanna keep discussing and throwing ideas about the ladder servers its fine... like I said, I already got my answer from one of the devs, wasnt my intention to hurt other ppl and if I did my apologies to you, my real intention was just to find out if there was a posibility to improve the lfs experience in this way, it seems that there is one so Im happy about it now.

Quote from Shoe Maker :

Forum mods should do more to stop people like you posting inflammatory remarks about servers but it seems only some server hosts get that kind of preferential treatment, while others are just left hanging out to dry.

What are you saying... that when moderators allow people to post their opinion based on their apparent experience, this means that you personally have been singled out for poor treatment, left "hanging out to dry"? Nonsense. Our meagre mind-reading skills may not meet your outrageous standards but we aren't about to start basing our actions on guess-work in the off-chance that it might prevent you from becoming personally agitated at someone's negative feedback. I don't know of any host who gets this so-called preferential treatment and I know of no host that is immuned to the existance of negative feedback from disgruntled racers and I know of no racer who can be absolutely certain that a visit to ANY public server will yield a clean and enjoyable session.

Since you seem to know all of the answers then you should have some inkling about human nature, it's something that we all have to suffer through every day of our lives. Running a regular or popular game server has its ups and downs, it will always be a bit of a chore to cater to an online community. If you have a problem with a forum post or actions of a particular member you could report it like most other people do and provide a reason for your concern. That would be better than posting inflammatory remarks about moderators leaving them hanging them out to dry.

It takes two people to create an argument, any one of those two people can defuse the argument at any time

I agree with mrodgers and Hankstar that there has been alot of unecessary personal attacks on the forums recently that should be in the realm of PM's if at all Rule of thumb should be don't take it personally, try to understand were the person is coming from, then try talk directly with the party in concern, then if that fails lodge a complaint with a moderator. If all fails then take it public, but that is absolute last resort.

Imo Rayo has some valid thoughts which are related to LFS in general actually, I have thought similar things myself (not regarding Redline but just in general). And echo mrodgers thoughts about the different types of individuals that use LFS and how certain systems suit certain individuals more than others.

I think what really is the motivating factor of most of these types of thread discussions brought up by the OP is simply the lack of filtering in LFS of driver skill levels, the problem is that it is very difficult to impliment a system of filtering driver skills while catering to all types of LFS users. Leagues do a good job of this, but unfortunately there are alot that just simply can not afford the time to do leagues and therefore are limited just to public servers on the odd occassion. Then there is the ladder type systems that are also useful at doing this, but as mrodgers states the ladder systems invariably favour frequent LFSers over the part time LFSers.

So while alot of these systems are great they still can leave parts of the LFS community wishing for more.

Quote from Gunn :

What are you saying... that when moderators allow people to post their opinion based on their apparent experience, this means that you personally have been singled out for poor treatment, left "hanging out to dry"? Nonsense. Our meagre mind-reading skills may not meet your outrageous standards but we aren't about to start basing our actions on guess-work in the off-chance that it might prevent you from becoming personally agitated at someone's negative feedback. I don't know of any host who gets this so-called preferential treatment and I know of no host that is immuned to the existance of negative feedback from disgruntled racers and I know of no racer who can be absolutely certain that a visit to ANY public server will yield a clean and enjoyable session.

Since you seem to know all of the answers then you should have some inkling about human nature, it's something that we all have to suffer through every day of our lives. Running a regular or popular game server has its ups and downs, it will always be a bit of a chore to cater to an online community. If you have a problem with a forum post or actions of a particular member you could report it like most other people do and provide a reason for your concern. That would be better than posting inflammatory remarks about moderators leaving them hanging them out to dry.

Another off topic post, this time from a moderator... And one to which I am obliged to respond too, so sorry for my off topic reply, but....

The difference with my comment is simply that I didn't name anyone personally, or go on a rant about what I consider the aforementioned 'nameless' are doing wrong or what they should be doing to put it right, so who am I hanging out to dry exactly ? and why are you getting on my case about it ? But seeing as you brought it up...

The fact is I ran a very large flight sim web network with thousands of members, for a number of years, and my forums had an 'acceptable usage policy'. Personal comments at or about others were not tolerated in the public forums, for the following three reasons:-

1. Hosts were free to run their sessions how ever they liked, they were not obliged to admit anyone. The servers were all provided free of charge but the ATC's gave their time for free to host sessions so that others could have fun for free, if they didn't want to have someone in their session, for what ever reason, that was up to them, you can't expect them to give up their free time to host a session and then force them put up with people they don't want to put up with, quite simply, they will tell you to shove it, and they simply won't host any more.

That seems perfectly reasonable to me, after all, no one has the right to tell me who I must let in to my house any more than my servers, and permitting the public forums to be used to post abuse about those that are at liberty to exclude anyone they choose, is no different from any other type of harassment, and most civilised countries of the world have laws about such things in this day and age, you go spray paint a derogatory comment on a wall, about some ethnic minority, and you will find out about those laws. You are entitled to your opinion, but that does not give you the right to spray paint it on walls.

2. Because of the impression that abusive and argumentative posts in the forums gave to potential future members who were reading the forums before they joined, its just bad for business to permit posts like that to be in the forums.

3. Because it generally promoted disharmony and arguments within the community, a community put together for one purpose, flying, not attacking others.

If people wanted to discuss things between them selves, that was up to them, but for the benefit of all that used my forums, posts that fell out side this 'usage policy' were removed from the forums promptly and the person that posted it was encouraged to discuss the matter with the person they were attacking. Posting a second time would result in a loss of posting privileges for a certain length of time, in order to force the issue of discussion between the people concerned, and all things being equal, this worked very well for us.

By contrast, it seems on the LFS forums, that anyone can come along, and say what ever they like, about anyone, and that seems fine unless your one of the forum 'in crowd', then if someone says something disagreeable, threads get cleaned out and life goes on without too much hassle or abuse. People that host LFS servers should be at liberty to run them how ever they please, without being subjected to abuse from every Tom, Dick and Harry that buys an S2 licence and who then thinks that people like me who pay for servers, are doing so just for their convenience and they have the right to make demands and criticize us fee paying hosts as they see fit.

I don't ask people to join my servers, they choose to, I don't charge money for admittance, I am not selling a product or a service and I am not obliged to provide anything to anyone. People are free to drive how ever they like when they are not on my servers, they buy the licence, they can do what they like with it, I don't come on the forums and start mouthing off about CnR drivers, it's none of my business what they do provided they are not screwing up the racing I pay to host.

So why should my servers be their business and why can they virtually 'spray paint anything they like on the walls' of the LFS forum with impunity, the lack of respect for other peoples property here on the forums is bad for business! My servers are provided free of charge and if people don't like them, then they should not use them, failing to like something does not give them the right to vandalise, insult, attack or abuse the work of others, if someone wants to suggest an improvement, they are welcome do it without being abusive about it.

As an S2 licence holder, I paid to buy this game and to access these official forums. My flight simulation network was provided free of charge to all members and yet they got more protection from abuse than paying customers seem to get here on LFS ! I guess Im just sick to the back teeth of abusive posts from people that have been banned for wrecking races. People are not obliged to like my servers, however anyone posting abuse about me, or my servers, can expect a response from me, if they are at liberty to post abuse, I am free to respond, if you don't want me to respond, then don't post abuse! Fair ?

Well I skimmed the last couple of posts, but in principle I do agree with Shoemaker (even though i'm banned from Redline!). As server hosts we provide a place to race, but we dont provide the opposition.

When somebody talks about the carnage on a particular server - they generally cite the server as being at fault.

This is because racing drivers dont take blame very well.

Server operators provide the track. The community provides the drivers (could also be referred to as willing idiots ) to drive on it.

If you guys crash each other and argue then we will take some action to resolve it, usually. Often this involves the driver not believing that they are in any way at fault.

Herein lies the problem. Racing drivers, even virtual ones, are perfect.

Quote from Becky Rose :

(even though i'm banned from Redline!)

:eek: :ashamed: :sorry:

I had no idea... fixed now, very very sorry... I should probably have guessed after our brief email exchange when I was in Spain, my bad... Sorry I didn't follow that up, work load in Spain was... considerable. Im back now for the time being, please contact me directly if I can be of any help, and let me assure you that the person responsilble for the ban, is no longer with Redline.

Ladder System was popular in Nascar Racing 2003, it kept alot of People havin fun for years doing Races outside there league and progress on there Rating.
For those interested a description of the Ladder Server Systems in NASCAR Racing 2003, maybe some of this mode could be used in LFS?

The Rating System is designed to make it easy for players of any skill level to race against others of similiar ability. A driver is Rated on a 0 - 10 scale.

Seems very cool... thanks for sharing it George.