My thoughts on new racers and the demo...... I download the demo after oogling all over the site at the screenshots. I've seen the shots of Aston and Kyoto with the GTR cars. I play the demo for the first time and like many other's I fall in love with it and Blackwood track. I play and I play and I play, after all, it is unlimited time. The GTi is a blast in close racing, the GT is a bit tougher to get a hold of, the GTT is just blazingly fast and uncontrollable. But I've settled on racing the GTi over and over again in close racing. Finally I'm bored with Blackwood and the same thing and remember all the screenshots I saw of the S2 content. By now I've driven the GTi so much, that I've forgotten about the GTT and how I hated the "fast" car. I have to buy S2 because I really want a piece of those GTR cars, especially the FZR!! It is just so sexy!! I buy my S2 license because I just have to.

Now, I've been licensed since the beginning of S2. But the above was me back in February when I found S1 demo for the first time. I tried it and hated the GTT car. It was too fast and uncontrollable. When S2 demo was released and the screenshots appeared, I oogled over them constantly. I was a dedicated GTi racer, and almost perfected Blackwood in it. I'd say I was the slow of the fast, back when 1:35's were fast. Now I have been racing S2 for, what, 5 months? Racer's in the US are dwindling down and recently I've jumped into demo as there are 3 times the servers with racers as on licensed. I thought I'd try out the GTT as I'm now use to the FZR and, wow, that car is boringly slow to me. I can't believe I had such a hard time with it before. This weekend I've been racing the GTi in the demo and it has been the best racing I've experienced for a long time. Swapping places in a pack of 5 cars back and forth for 5 laps, running 2 wide into the corners, little bit of bumping and rubbing, but no one booting eachother off the track. Great, clean, close racing. No elitists ramming you out of the way because "you should get out of my way, I am faster than you!"

I think the demo is perfect just the way it is!

I agree with Gunn and Mr Rodgers.
Besides, just how much would having a faster, harder to control car
do for reducing the wreckers, the moaners and the instant booters?
I don't see how doing anything else to the demo would do anything
besides make it less than what it is now.

most of the people who would buy lfs at this time have already gotten it. sure other less realistic games have much faster cars in their demos but look at how crazy people are with the slow cars. with faster cars.... well other people have already said it so i'll be quiet.

i'm sure more will buy it as word spreads and the game is further refined. Ignoring the idiot drivers i think the demo is enough to get anyone with half a brain to buy the game eventually.

Personally, I think that if someone is considering a purchase of S2, then they probably want to drive race cars with slicks. At the moment, the LFS Devs are basically asking them to take it on trust that the physics and handling of the race cars and slick tyres meet there expectations.

This is not so much of a problem when trying to attract 'new' sim racers, but if they want to convert serious sim racers from other sims, then they need to give some kind of demo of the serious race cars.

It could easily be implemented as an offline only car (after the ai patch though), or if the actual demo cars themselves were to change, you would just make it an incompatible patch and have the master server refuse old patch connections after a while with a message to download the latest patch form liveforspeed.net.

Yeah I think that's also an acceptable idea. An offline only slick car would shutup all these "I need a car with slicks to be convinced to buy LFS" whiners () yet it wouldn't give them endless hours of fun, which is only archievable online (even with improved AI, after some while you'd simply know all tricks to beat them)

Quote from colcob :

It could easily be implemented as an offline only car

I like this idea! Leave the demo cars as they are now, but add one with slicks for offline mode only...

Good point on the attracting simmer's from other good sims, like NR2003 and GPL (they are still going strong after all this time). Going from an 800 hp stockcar in NR2k3 to a little hatchback road car in LFS would be like me trying to ride a 40 mph scooter to work after riding my 0-60 in less than 5 second bike. An offline only GTR car would be good to give an idea of how the slick tire cars run.

Ok, i didn't read all posts so i'll probably repeat some things...

Like Kid Codea wrote, i was there in the beginning of LFS (as was he i
believe), and DID play the 'demo' for years, that's Blackwood only, with
the 3 base cars. Mind you, we raced much more on the Rallycross tracks
back then so once the reversed track idea made it in the game, we had 4
configs for one track and the autocross parking lot. Each feeling different enough
not to seem like it's always the same track. I considered the beta demo a 'full'
game for quite some time. Again, like Kid said, i don't know of any other
demo that i have spend SO much time playing.

Of course, being the one to have started LFSTweak (PowerMOD back
then...) , i can't deny i wasn't quite satisfied...but that's me, i'm NEVER
satisfied Any other game wouldn't have changed that. Like that tweak
site's slogan goes : "If it ain't broke, Tweak it!". That's my motto.

One of the main thing that attracted me to LFS besides the physics is the
online gaming, i just loved how simple and effective it was. Those things
(physics and online racing) are all part of the demo so the genuine LFS
experience is more then well defined in the demo, in fact, i'd go as far as
saying S1-S2 are only car&track add-ons. The demo has all what the 'full'
game has except maybe that autocross editor, but between you and me,
no one is buying S1-S2 just because there's an autocross editor

hehe, I remember that when I 1st got S1 demo and played the different tracks, it took me a lap or two to understand that I'm driving a reverse of the "normal" track

Quote from Fonnybone :

The demo has all what the 'full'
game has except maybe that autocross editor, but between you and me,
no one is buying S1-S2 just because there's an autocross editor

Not surprisingly, lots of SCCA guys think that LFS is THE definitive Solo II simulator, so there are people that love the autocross part

Well here is a comment, taken from the MPH Show thread, which will show you that the Demo does infact do justice for LFS.

Enjoy

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=42437#post42437

Fordie

Quote from Fordman :

Well here is a comment, taken from the MPH Show thread, which will show you that the Demo does infact do justice for LFS.
Enjoy

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=42437#post42437
Fordie

Hehe, yeah, but he also says this:

"The seat is an excelent promotional tool..."

bah, u could promo lfs in this and it would still sell.

What would sell, the seat or LFS?

Surely the user would be seriously injured, or dead.

After trying the demo for a week or so I was ready to give up on it because the default car setups were just so unrealistic. (I was trying it with wheel & pedals, and had about 10 years of real-life race experience.)

Only the fact that there was this huge online community made me think there's more to this game than the demo conveys. And then, after finding a realistic setup, I realized *why* there was this big fuzz about this game and I ended up buying it within days.

So, I think, it is absolutely crucial to have the BEST POSSIBLE (i.e. realistic) default setups for the demo cars! People who sample a game will most likely not hunt through dozens of sites to finally find a setup that behaves like a real car. They give it a shot, it feels weird, and they drop it.

I don't find it very crucial that there should be 'real' race cars in the demo. After all, most people will have never driven one anyway. So there would be no way for them to tell what's realistic and what isn't anyway. But most will have driven cars like the XFG before, and will notice right away if something feels wrong, and judge the demo accordingly.

Easy Race sets

Quote from thisnameistaken :

This is a very good point. The default setups do suck.

Hmm. I don't think the XRT setups are too bad imho. And none of the "demo setups". I made some (small)modifications to the race_1 and raced a lot with it in the demo. Could do 1:25.xx times with bad driving It is very neutral setup, so you don't need to throw the car into the turns, maybe too much to control with the throttle but not too bad.

But I'd defenetely like to see tha Bob's easy race setups (and drag sets too?) bundled in LFS download. For the S2 cars the default setups are just too hard to drive.

Hmm, gotta go and drive some XRT laps :P

Quote from Hyperactive :

But I'd defenetely like to see tha Bob's easy race setups (and drag sets too?) bundled in LFS download. For the S2 cars the default setups are just too hard to drive.

Heh, people keep saying this, and as I remember that was even a poll for it and most people said yes. It seems the devs aren't convinced yet though. Either that or they have a contract with whoever made the default sets.
Actually who did make the default sets? They've certainly had some thought put into them, but certainly not enough.
Oh I don't think it would be a good idea to put the drag sets in LFS by default, that would be making LFS seem more serious about dragging that it really is. Road Going setups could be fun though.

The default sets and setup value limits are mostly procedurally generated from the car parameters. Which is why they automatically change when LFSTweak changes the cars. It's also why there are no .set files for the default sets.

It's also why they suck.

I did some analysis on them once, way back when, and came up with a set of values that the car mass is multiplied by to give you the default set. parameters.

Its a good idea when you are developing different cars as it means you have instant baseline setups, but its a bad idea for producing actual driveable setups for general use.

I dont agree with adding more content.

I was easily hooked after playing the LFS demo.
I WAS NOT hooked after playing the GTR demo which included some GT cars. (but maybe its because im practically a fanboy :P )

But i totally agree about the setups.

Each car should be supplied with a number of setups, because a good setup is a subjective opinion. Bobs easy race setups could be a good start, but these should be paired up with more difficult (read faster) setups. This would give a choice and a natural progression for new users to advance from one set to another once a car has been 'learned'.

However, this probably isnt such a good idea at the moment. With LFS being updated all the time, physics changes will soon render any setups useless. I suspect the devs would employ a setup guru to provide a range of setups to supply with LFS when S2 (at the earliest) gets its final updates. If not with S2 then finally with S3.

Barring supplying setups with LFS, the next best option would be to supply a 'HELP' button underneath the setups bar in the garage to provide people with a link to the INFERNO website or any other setup pages. Or at the least to indicate that there are other pre-made setups out there. An indication should also be made that people can send you setups online. Sometimes when i offer someone a setup online they respond with "how do i do that?" Some first time users wont have a clue that they can even adjust or download new setups as they assume you just get in and drive.

I guess the biggest factor is that the defualt setups shouldnt put people off! And that they should be made aware that if they dont like a setup, they can get more easily.

Seems like most of you doesn't agree with me.

These "I was hooked right away when I played the demo" examples are useless because we are all LFS fanboys. You forget that most the players who didn't hook up right away are not here to say that. There are lots of them (who play sims, not some stupid arcade lamers). I still think that there would be a concrete change in their opinion if they had a chance to test LFS with better cars, as they think the road cars in the demo are simulating driving on ice. Blah, I'll just keep repeating this...

Good point about the demo setups, though.

Quote from deggis :

Seems like most of you doesn't agree with me.

These "I was hooked right away when I played the demo" examples are useless because we are all LFS fanboys. You forget that most the players who didn't hook up right away are not here to say that. There are lots of them (who play sims, not some stupid arcade lamers). I still think that there would be a concrete change in their opinion if they had a chance to test LFS with better cars, as they think the road cars in the demo are simulating driving on ice. Blah, I'll just keep repeating this...

Good point about the demo setups, though.

Which goes back to the tyre model still needs some tweaking and or better setups supplied with the demo If as has been metioned before the car feels right to prospective buyers they will want the faster cars as well and therefore buy the S2 license immediately but if they are left with some nagging doughts they will post pone there discision to buy..
Those of us who have bought it, have bought it because we are willing to look past the current flaws realising that the other aspects of the sim more than make up for it.. and see the ongoing development of the game as a major plus it can only get better..

Having not played a racing sim for several years, I played the LFS demo offline for about an hour, and bought a licence that afternoon. If only everyone was like me . The servers would be full and the Devs; rich bastards! I might be a bit of a fanboy now, but wasn't when I forked over my 'hard earned'.

Regarding the demo:

Only one track should be availabe, and no GTR or formula cars.
But, PLEASE get rid of the XR GT Turbo. It is far too inaccessible for demo racers and I'd imagine it would be turning people off in droves.

Leave the XF GTI, it's great, and add the FXO Turbo. It's much easier to drive, and would make for some great racing on the demo servers.

Might as well leave the XR GT in there for the drifters, but it's quite a pointless car otherwise.

Quote from farcar :

Only one track should be availabe, and no GTR or formula cars.
But, PLEASE get rid of the XR GT Turbo. It is far too inaccessible for demo racers and I'd imagine it would be turning people off in droves.

I think I could agree with this. Even if nothing is added, maybe the demo would be better without the turbo. It's simply too much to handle for newbies, and with the current tire model issues combined with the lackluster default setups, it gives a bad impression.

Quote :

Might as well leave the XR GT in there for the drifters, but it's quite a pointless car otherwise.

It's not pointless. FWD and RWD feel different enough to require at least one of each.

Just to continue on the setup thing. This has been said for a while now.

- LFS needs 'better' default setups

As noble as it sounds, it doesn't seem that simple. There are basic
problems that make that close to impossible.

First is the controller, depending if one uses a wheel, analog gamepad,
mouse or keyboard (or joystick, or full simulator), the 'better' part will
never be defined. There are basic difference between controllers that
make it hard to find an optimal setup for all. Either there's a few base
setups, or there's one that compromises for the sake of homogeneity.
Either way, people will complain and STILL say the base setups are
innadequate.

Another factor to consider is the various driving styles, skills and experience.
Often, faster or more experienced drivers tend to have more nervous setups that
beginner's might find impossible to drive, while a 'good' n00b setup would probably
understeer a lot and not be a good base for competitive laptimes.

There are surely other things, but the 2 things i mentionned above are
important enough imo.

What i don't understand as much is why it can't be the community that
provides these setups. For example, BobSmith could make some good base
setups for wheels (im assuming thats what he uses..), while someone
else could make base keyboard setups. We could test them out and agree
on the best and post them in a sticky in the beginner forum. I don't see
what's stopping anyone from doing that. It MUST be part of LFS ?!