so YOUR the Kenneth bugging the hell out of me on MSN?

Quote :

(23:58) *9mil--/K3nn3th/: my lfs team
(23:58) *9mil--/K3nn3th/: Puma Motorsports

That was from 1st of April (guess i was the fool) and suddenly its not Puma its Prawler Motorsports and a 10 week old team?

Eitherway, no offense is meant in this opinion (and its not directed particularly at you & your team), but if MoE started taking any Tom, Dick n Harry who'd had the brainwave idea to start a new team (heck, theres so few of them!) and take part in all the big series, then im pretty sure half the teams would just walk away and start looking for something which is maybe rather elitist, but somewhere that the best teams can race together, not somewhere that anyone can turn up in this weeks team and play with the big boys.

You cant expect to just waltz into a series like MoE, it'd be like making a pub team and asking UEFA if you can be in the Champions League. Concerntraite on building yourself up before even considering putting yourself forward for a team event requiring at bare minimum of 4 dedicated drivers. Start with something simple like BOTT or something that you can learn from, gain some experience and something that shows you have what it takes, you cant just pick a few guys and say here we are. IGTC is a start, but that alone may not be enough to prove that you have the dedication, experience, ability and race sense to be on the track with everyone else in a series thats taken seriously.
Even Mercury wasnt given a guarantee'd slot when they had a couple of spaces for Round 2, we were given a trial run and despite finishing 4th in our first race we were still on a reserve list for the next race.


As my earlier post said, i dont believe there are more than about 25 teams willing and suitable for MoE, and having seen the list of 50 possible teams (including PRWL!!) I think that seems to be the case still.
Im all for big grids and less of the quiet spells, but there needs to be a standard maintained. Something like the old F1 107% qualification rule, but with obvious suitability checks done beforehand. The other issue is that 1 driver can be great, the rest can be n00bs who are a risk to anyone that dares to go near them. Hopefully MoE will start with just those who have been clean and controlled in last seasons LFS-GT or have a bloody good track record elsewhere before throwing them straight into MoE proper, the rest can prove themselves in LFS GT and when deemed able can be moved up if spaces are available.


Incidently, i was wondering now the servers have a ton of race slots and spectator slots, is there any possibility of allowing teams to nominate a single team manager per round who's allowed into the server to spectate? (maybe 2, working in shifts, during the 24hr race)
I remember Vykos saying something i felt i could relate to, in that i really enjoyed being there helping to relay information back to the driver via LFS Spectator and the MoE Tracker, and i dunno about all the other teams but im thinking if we can keep Vykos off the grey stuff and sidelined as team director we all have a better chance

Quote from PaulC2K :

Incidently, i was wondering now the servers have a ton of race slots and spectator slots, is there any possibility of allowing teams to nominate a single team manager per round who's allowed into the server to spectate? (maybe 2, working in shifts, during the 24hr race)

I like this idea, however if each team (more or less) have a member online, then there could (especially with exchanging members within same team) not only be annoyens when they connect/disconnect (sound + messages uo in the corner), but also chance to have "join lag".

I don't think it would work, but I could be wrong though

Quote from racer hero :

I guess PRWL is not welcome?

Maybe, but you need to learn to obey blue flag rule, especially in an endurance race. I've reviewed the replay of your OWRL Div.2 league just now as my teammate has filed a complaint about it. Well, just wanna say, learn to race properly first.

and @Paul : maybe 107% will be too wide? I think benchmark 103% should be fine for a professional league like MoE?

i personaly would definately keep it like max. 20 cars thats enough normaly
and coz we have so many spectator tools, either get your 2nd driver onto the server or like paul mentioned just get your team manager on the server to feed u with information (*lookin to Owen*)

If you have 30-31 cars on the track, and you have 16-18 slots free for other things.

I highly doubt there will be allowed team managers into the server, as there is just not enough room, and it is probably best to keep as many people that aren't racing OFF the server. I know how nice it would be to watch your own driver on the track, but not everyone could have this advantage, so it wouldn't be really fair or useful, since all you really need to do is focus on the trackers and use LFS spectator, though crude, it is a better solution.

Because of the 18-20 extra slots for spectators, there will most likely be these other positions being taken:

-2-4 admins present
-Some people watching doing live commentary
-Several photographers (new idea I have atm)
-Extra track marshalls watching specific corners - possibly

That really only leaves room for about 10-12 extra slots, which is plenty to allow for teammates to join and get ready for driver swaps. Remember, that is the most important part (especially with a much larger grid), and kind of goes against your Team Manager idea Paul .

MoE will definitely NOT be having a small grid of 20 or so cars for the next season. Be prepared for a much larger race.

We might be trying to have LFS-TV, if our live coverage folks are okay with it, that should solve the team manager issues.

Quote from Hoellsen :

We might be trying to have LFS-TV, if our live coverage folks are okay with it, that should solve the team manager issues.

That would be awesome, and much better for everyone if it worked.

i stopped readying after first page and i saw that there are alot of controversial opiniouns and so i thought to give mine too.

i have driven in lfs gt and those gt2 cars are so annoying as they appear in front of u on every lap. plus if u pass them it isnt a success it is more like passing moving obstacles. and if it is what we are aiming then lets use uf1000s

in conclusion, i dont support this idea.

reading after the first page would have concluded that your GT2 cars arent the same as the GT2 cars being suggested. The MoE GT2 class would be restricted GT1 cars, ie slower GTRs, slower by 5% (4sec on a 90sec lap).

What i would say about your comment that they're moving obsticals is that they're entitled to drive the ideal line and you are to pass them, they arent under any obligation to make it easy for you, im sure they will when circumstances make it possible but they wont come off the racing line to allow you the simple life because they dont have to. With GT2 class cars in LFS GT the cars are about 6-8 sec a lap slower, considerably so down straights, the proposed restricted GTRs for MoE wouldnt be anywhere near as slow, so if anything the moving obsticles are faster and harder to get around. Previously a straight strip would allow the GT1 car to go round the GT2 car without any trouble, but the faster the obsticle the more time it takes to get around them.

God/Bad/Indifferent, it'll be harder to overtake a restricted GTR car than a XFR/UFR because cornering speeds will be identical (same weight, tyres & aero) all they will lack is acceleration and straight line speed. You could argue the GT2 class would remove more DF to get the speeds up, making them slower in corners (marginally) but now they'd be faster in a straight line, one of the areas the GT1s would have a natural advantage in.

Doesnt mean they cant or should be allowed, but it will make for some problems, passing backmarker GT1 cars would be easier than some GT2 cars because the backmarkers are under obligation to move over within reasonable time.

Just a note to say that I love the idea of multiclass racing and I'm pushing my teammates to field a MoE GT2 team.

It´s a good idea, but only 17 cars in the most popular class GT1?
Don´t forget, three teams or more from the LFS GT want to be part of the MoE on next season.

Quote from zui2000 :

It´s a good idea, but only 17 cars in the most popular class GT1?
Don´t forget, three teams or more from the LFS GT want to be part of the MoE on next season.

I think it is a 50/50 decision right now if we are actually going ahead with a GT1 and GT2 season OR just all GT1 cars.

Something you have to think about is that many of the teams that are in GT1 are the fastest teams around in LFS, and likely there will usually only be about 5 or 6 fast teams in GT1 that are truly contending for the top 3 spots of the championship. Everyone else will be slower teams of course, and trying to get a good result... That is why (like mentioned earlier in this thread) if you have a full grid of GT1 cars, it just isn't fun for a team to be in 30th position for just one class. If you divide it up to something like 18 GT1 and 13 GT2 (31 total), then that is plenty for the GT1 class to be a part of, and enough for GT2 to have a good battle also.

The only problem right now is the lack of interest in testing the GT2 type car with different specs. It isn't 'quite' what MoE wants for a different class because they look the same and all we are doing is just changing the weight and power... but it is the only option MoE has at the moment to making a nicer multi-class series. If GT2 doesn't have much of an interest, then unfortunately MoE might have to forget about the whole idea and just do a large 31 car grid of GT1 cars.... which is pretty lame to be honest. But seeing that the GT1 cars are the only thing teams and drivers will be the most comfortable with (since it is the standard car people are used to), having all GT1 cars might be what happens. Unless of course we can magically get a new set of GT2 cars from Eric, but I highly doubt that is going to happen . And the FWD GTRs are not even close to something we'd want.

I see IGTC or whatever putting in a second class that is 300 bhp GTR cars... but that is just WAYYYY too underpowered and slow, and I have a feeling it might not really be that successful for or desirable for teams/drivers... simply because they don't have many hours under their belt for driving such a different machine.

ALL MoE needs right now is just some decent testing results for the GT2 class car, and then we can make adjustments accordingly. Then a GT2 class could be ready to go and teams would have a few months to prepare before the first race in September.

tough call but in regard to using gt1 cars restricted theres no way to restrict tyre width atm like in jgtc for example, gt500 use 359mm and gt300 use 305mm maximum respectively, maybe make a suggestion improvement in the apropriate forum.

Yeah that is the problem with the GT2 plan, because the cars have such huge tires AND too much available downforce... the cars really don't need much downforce in order to be quick because the tires compensate (And the slower speeds from the power restriction).

They need to be 'on the limit' to make them fun... but they feel like you are just giving them 80% throttle and that is it. Would be fun to race other GT2 cars like this... but I still don't think they feel proper.

@Tweaker
To train 2-4 weeks and fight 6/12/24h to finish in the Top20 is great!
A better competition is impossible for a team.

I think 2 class are very good and needed in an endurence series.

In the LFS LeMans league we are going to test a GT2 version. The restriction is going to be 26% for FXR and XRR, FZR is going to have 20%. At the moment we don't discuss any weight increasing, but it could be tested later on. This might be a good event to test these strangled cars ....

This is the final event in this league and is going to be around 2,5 h at Kyoto GP. I guess it's going to be at least one stop for the GT2, a good test run.
Unfortunately it's the same day as the 24h event, Saturday May 26th, but nothing we could do about it.
It's a single driver event though and there might be some drivers out there who wants to run in our event, all is welcome though : http://www.lfsforum.net/forumdisplay.php?f=96

you guys know what i'd like to see?

maybe a 4hours race in june or july or sometime around there.

Like last year when we had this Welcome Patch T 4h of As North race

so we could have a welcome patch X 4h race somewhere and we could all see the balancing system in a proper race

Belain: we _are_ thinking about doing something like that, but we do need input from you guys in respect to first tests so we can set the power for gt2 at a decent level and not having to reassess stuff during that little race.

As said by my team mate (and boss ) Cawwa, we are about to have an event wich can show just how good this restriction might work. Within the team we will have a full GT2 (around 350 bh) grid, where one of each member will drive one of the restricted GTR. But it would be really nice if some of the fast drivers here in moe take part in this event, wich is long enough to see what happenes in race circumstances. At track KY GP long the GT2 class is about 10 seconds slower per lap. So i apeal to you, come and test. This is the time that MOE needs some help from us all to make 2 class racing happen, wich in my eyes is really a nice and wonderfull thing!

Yeah but as far as I can see, that series is making the slower class too slow with 300 bhp or something. When I tested that, that was just way too slow compared to the other car's abilities. Also, since it is an intake restriction, you CANNOT turn it down too low on a turbo car, and you'll have an incredible amount of turbo lag and very poor powerband.

Also by having such a low power range, you almost wont even need any downforce on your car, and driving will be full throttle most of the time. That isn't very exciting or 'on the edge' for another class in a series. That is why we need more people testing the 400 bhp power since it makes the cars significantly slower, but not too slow that it feels wrong.

A 300 bhp car will easily be 10 or more seconds down on a short track from the normal GTRs. If you use any longer tracks, it will definitely be very very slow. And come to think of it, the FWD GTR cars are around that pace of about a 10 second gap or so, so there really isn't any point in using such low powered GTR cars.

With restriction of 26%, 26% and 20% you get around 350 hp and good balanced hp per ton.

With 50% fuel we got low-middle 2.22 on Kyoto GP with all the cars pretty stable in some 5 laps races with only slightly modified sets. (Me as a slowpoke got about a second slower)

I think these times are pretty good balanced as a GT2 class and don't really agree upon you saying we need around 400 hp. I don't think this a bigger question though. If the admins of MoE really want those 400 hp test we could do that, but for now our opinion is that 350 hp seems to be the best option.

Quote from Tweaker :

Yeah but as far as I can see, that series is making the slower class too slow with 300 bhp or something. When I tested that, that was just way too slow compared to the other car's abilities. Also, since it is an intake restriction, you CANNOT turn it down too low on a turbo car, and you'll have an incredible amount of turbo lag and very poor powerband.

Well as said our restrictions are 20% for fzr and 26 for other 2. I dunno if its the game, but looks like turbo gives same boost as it has in 500 hp, because fzr really has to go out of corner nicely to keep up on straight with the others. (maybe its the extra 100 kg). And revs dont drop and shouldnt drop below that turbo lag hole, even at acelerating from start, they are all pretty equal. And with the low wing it does get pretty slipery, at least at kyoto. So i would really like to see as much of you fast guys as possible just to see what happens. There is some time left till moe, but doesent hurt some good testing. And 400 hp is very similar in driving feeling as the 500 hp, and imo it should be slightly different, as it is a new class.