Right, I've now reduced the XRR handicap by 10 kg.

So it's :

FXO GTR - no handicap
XRR - 40 kg
FZR - 80 kg

By the sound of things, this will be a good balance. But we'll see - it does need testing on different tracks, and if you say car X is faster than car Y - please mention the track you tested on.

Great Scawen, thank you

I'm going on-line to test how many laps can XRR do now, I let you know result

ah damn it i got disconnected in lap 9. Ok here are impressions: Max tire temperature was 105C (108C before with 50kg) and i was driving a bit faster lap times with lot of fuel. I tried off line with low fuel and i do same lap times. I like new weight and i'm 100% sure XRR can do more laps now

I'm sorry, but I think this is a mistake. N I K I either your setup is crap, or you are being quite selfish with this request, because with 50kg the XRR can do at least 25 laps with R3 tyres, which is more than the FZR and looking at the quali times it was around 0.5s faster than the FZR.

And the low fuel consumption makes a huge difference even if no one will be running 100% fuel. The XRRs can start with 30% less fuel for a 25 lap stint than the FZR, this means a much lighter car for almost the whole stint.

I am actually trying to get a fair class, you are trying to give yourself an advantage for the race.

Quote from N I K I :

50kg killes XRR front tires and XRR can stay out shorter then FZR... i'm not telling lies! Maybe if Scawen reduce it to 40kg it would be better.

XRR can do 20 laps
FZR can do 23 laps

I believe XRR could do 23 laps with to 40kg (i'm talking about R2 tires)

The FZR can only do 23 laps on R3 tyres! I'm sorry Scawen but this latest tweak is a joke. The XRR will still be faster on an empty tank, and the XRRs will still be able to run longer on less fuel. This guy is just trying to help himself.

Edit: I really can't understand this. The FZR _should_ be faster, because it is disadvantaged in every other way. Please note that niki was talking about doing 23 laps on R2 tyres in the XRR. At the moment it is difficult to complete 23 laps on R3 tyres in the FZR. On the same compound the XRR can go comfortably further, and with an average 15kg weight bonus from fuel alone over a long run compared to the FZR.

why are you using R3??? afaik R2 are always better...

R2 are always better and Team Inferno is doing 23 laps on R2 with FZR!

Quote from Flotch :

why are you using R3??? afaik R2 are always better...

At KY3R the tyres just heat up incredibly quickly. Usually R2s are better, but they don't seem to be in this case. I'll give it a go a little later though and see if I can make them last. All the GTRs in the practice race last night were using R3s afaik.

The fact remains though, that the XRR is easier on the tyres, around the same speed as the FZR on an empty tank or slightly faster, and has a huge weight advantage over long runs. Maybe you could do some testing of the three cars though Flotch?

I never drove a single lap at KY3R, so I do not think I can help , but I saw a setup from forbin for the BF1 at Westhill (the perfect combo to destroy the tires ) using R2, so I'm sure R2 are the way for every cars (except those wich have R1 )...
And the last race I've done was with the previous physics (cooking tires) on Historic, and I remember that R2 was the best solution (for each GTR), so I guess now, R2 should still the best choice . If I remember right, Norbi has shared a race setup for the FZR at KY3 (setupfield), so you should have a very good base for the reverse (with R2!)

Scawen, this post might be helpfull in showing the state of the balance of the GTR's before the FZR 20KG break...

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=421687#post421687

Its KY3R btw.

Quote from Andreas Grauel :

This wont help i guess cause u need the same Person driving all three cars to see if one car is faster!

I'd say n1lyn is much better then S. Vollak in the FXR and Teemu Hirvonen. My opinion is to wait and see how the cars do in the race, cause i think the FXR will have a lot of problems in the race cause of FWD and TyreKilling :P

Well I'd say that in MoE / LFS GT qualifying sessions Teemu Hirvonen was faster than Nils on both occasions, despite having only just started driving the FZR. Also, Vollak seems to have done a lot of practice for this, and is a quick driver anyway, so I would say that you are wrong.

I do agree though that the only fair way to tell is for a fast driver to test all three cars. I personally think that the cars should be balanced for performance over a long distance though, not in 5 lap sprint races / hotlaps.

We will be using the old setting for the 24h race, which were present when the drivers have chosen their car. This is the only fair thing we can do, because otherwise everyone will say its not fair to change the settings afterwards. I dont want Scawen to make the decision who will win the race
So, people have chosen themselves.

FXR - 0kg
XRR - 50kg
FZR - 100kg

Actually, XRR and FXR are very equal with those settings.

Quote from ORION :

We will be using the old setting for the 24h race, which were present when the drivers have chosen their car. This is the only fair thing we can do, because otherwise everyone will say its not fair to change the settings afterwards. I dont want Scawen to make the decision who will win the race
So, people have chosen themselves.

FXR - 0kg
XRR - 50kg
FZR - 100kg

Actually, XRR and FXR are very equal with those settings.

That formula 0/50/100 was just determined to be UNFAIR. Now you want us all to use an UNFAIR forumla.... Please, you need to go with the most up-to-date FAIR ballast formula.

Hi,

To anyone following this thread, I would ask you to take a quick look here:
http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=24623

The organizers of a certain upcoming race, through some diluted reasoning, have come up with an idea that the new GTR-class 0/40/80 kg community-wide pentalty weights are unfair. If you are involved in the race you should know this, as you will have to "volunteer" the earlier 0/50/100 kg pentalty weight back on.

Just take a gander and vote what you believe to be fair,

The community-accepted balancing,
or
The over-turned 0/50/100 kg balancing.

Don't you understand the circumstances under which the admins of the 24h race decided to use 0/50/100?

1. The admins decided to go with the testpatches because the allow more cars and have a better balance in the GTR and TBO classes.

2. They made everybody choose their car _BEFORE_ the qualifying. The qualifying was held under 0/50/100. So the teams chose their car with those weights in mind.

3. It would be unfair to alter the weight in the race because some people maybe would have chosen another car under those circumstances. Quite an easy formula: ONE event - ONE weight management.

I hope this helps to understand.

Wow, Scawen makes up an abstract, untested number, admits that it will need tweaking, people researched, Scawen changed the numbers, and you still proceed to act like you are in the right.

You all saw that the FZR and XRR were over-penalized, and you thought to yourselves, "We can take advantage of this," instead of helping the LFS developement.

Now that the rest of the community has shared what you already know, you are refusing to update to community standards for fairness.

Sad.

oh for crying out loud you chose a car with the old penalties in mind no go by what youve decided and drive that car

with the change theyd have to start over give everyone another chance to switch cars run another qualy after which someone will show up in this thread agaion to ask for a change in balancing and the whole thing starts over
at this rate the race wouldnt ever even start

Gl & Hf

Quote from srdsprinter :

weakest.... excuse... ever...

And with that, I am done here.

Whiniest post ever. It's best to say "The rules for this even have not changed even though the patch has changed"

the governing body of the event you've signed up for has made a decision, get the hell over it

sorry to confuse things a bit but intention is to make them clear. I know you guys would like to have cars balanced for 24race but the testing there is irrelevant.
I M H O classes should be balanced for ca10mins races, as they are most popular for newcomers and medium racers while purpose of balancing is to keep servers busy when with multiple choice of cars, right? Every event organiser will be able to do tests for himself and will be able to show results here.


btw: it looks like challenge for Eric to make new concept cars - now the need for testing balance for a new car in a class is minimum, so if there is another car layout possible (drive, engine placement - handling in general) - no barriers for new model to create. there could be problem with servers' occupation when there is too many classes but not when there are multiple cars classes.

What about the TBO class?

I drive in a brazilian league LFSBR (www.lfsbr.com) and we now have a XRT and RB4 championship.

I am in first on the championship using the XRT. The RB4 is a lot slow on all the tracks. And that happens because their tires get hotter easier than the XRT.

So I think that the XRT should have at least 35kg.

Quote from Campos_MIC :

What about the TBO class?

I drive in a brazilian league LFSBR (www.lfsbr.com) and we now have a XRT and RB4 championship.

I am in first on the championship using the XRT. The RB4 is a lot slow on all the tracks. And that happens because their tires get hotter easier than the XRT.

So I think that the XRT should have at least 35kg.

what type of tracks do you use? RB4 is quicker on shorter, twistier tracks, XRT on longer tracks, where the top speed counts. that's how it should be.

edit: and the RB4 should eat the tyres as it is a 4WD.

i think, all in all, the xrr is a little bit too fast now. I think FZR and FXR are on one level now, but the XRR might be a little bit too fast. (was already a little faster than FXR with 50kg) so maybe 0/55/80 would maybe be an option. we'll see

Quote from zockmachine :

i think, all in all, the xrr is a little bit too fast now. I think FZR and FXR are on one level now, but the XRR might be a little bit too fast. (was already a little faster than FXR with 50kg) so maybe 0/55/80 would maybe be an option. we'll see

where it is quicker? on FE or SO or the slow AS tracks? Slowing down it too much by adding weight is not going to be a good idea, and btw, I repeat myself about the logic of this thing : why is the FXR going to be the lightest car of the class??

Fighting and whining not only fails to advance a solution, it worsens the problem in a number of ways, one of them turning off Scawen's enthusiasm.

I would say this is no different than other problems of its kind, in that you cannot safely decide a formula from such a reduced (just one person, in some people's minds) sample/population.
People who concerned enough with the race could improvise a quick field testing with the available resources to inform them with the info to make the best decision before the 26th. Devising this data gathering would be more productive than arguing who forum-whines best.

There could be (in its final form) a few separate handicap formulas adapted to short, medium, or long (and/or any other sort of race affected I'm not thinking of) races, that (for example) a server admin could choose from, or that the server could retrieve from the master server after the latter has recognized from said server's car/track/length settings which formula applies.