Team standings are now back - for good.

And fellow staff members, if you feel you see something provocative written in here, please don't fight fire with fire. Not so nice to wake up and read something like that.

Also I hate that comparison to card-games. It is really offending since we are trying to response to community feedback nonstop, not playing dirty or something like that which you in my eyes were suggesting.

Anyway, the standings are now back - with some tweaks. After doing some serious calculation I had to admit my mistake, it is better like this.

So if you wish to throw the rocks, you know the address

Just a little story...

"There once was a team with 10 members driving in the OLFSL. In the team there was a fast driver that was always in pool 1 and the other 9 were average drivers that were never better than pool 4. So, since they had no chance in the individual standings, they decided to win as a team... To achieve that, only the fastest driver ( that was always in pool 1 ) did any races so that only his points counted to the team standings. In the end they were pretty happy, because everybody thought they were a team with a lot of fast drivers, altough they didn´t race at all..."

Let's hope that the teams in OLFSL aren´t like the one in the story, or the grids for the events are going to get smaller and smaller...

Thx

Quote from chunkyracer :

blah blah blah

Wow. What a constructive post. I suppose you've got the perfect solution which will make everyone happy?

I suppose that’s what the new point system was meant to fix…
But even if I agreed to that, my opinion still is that you must not change the point rules during the middle of the season…

The points are back to the way they were calculated before.

"Only change made was that team can now qualify to team standings with only 1 racer - though there must be at least 2 team members subscribed to season."

Well i think that’s a kind of punishment to make us understand the drawbacks of the previous system.
Its closer to what everyone had in mind at the beginning so it’s ok


Now the OLFSL staff has plenty of time to decide a final and more refined point system for the next season…

Quote from felplacerad :

Wow. What a constructive post. I suppose you've got the perfect solution which will make everyone happy?

I was just showing with an example how, with the current system, one driver could win the team standings in OLFSL... And that is a bit strange, isn´t it??

I have to agree with FienDi about the general attitude of some racers.

We have a great league run by some dedicated people who allow to race not only super races but a casual ones too. Do we pay for this? No.
So please show some respect. I have to admit that I really enjoy racing with you guys on OLFSL. And I think that most of us enjoys it too. So please keep it this way.

And the problem is not that team standing where perfect and the OLFSL staff don't want to hear about any changes, but tone of some post should be changed to keep conversation on major topic.

In my personal opinion current open OLFSL formula doesn't suit well with team standings and team standing shouldn't be something to take a deep look at. There can be a team with one very good racer and a team with several good (not great) racers. Who should be on top? This is quite difficult question to answer. So please everybody who would like to improve them to post some suggestions here and I we can try discuss

Best Regards
Mroziu

Quote from chunkyracer :

I was just showing with an example how, with the current system, one driver could win the team standings in OLFSL... And that is a bit strange, isn´t it??

So you are suggesting then that we... ? Because I saw only critics about the current system, but no ideas how to move to better direction.

Quote from Mroziu :

In my personal opinion current open OLFSL formula doesn't suit well with team standings and team standing shouldn't be something to take a deep look at.

As a matter of fact, I first created those team standings just for fun - and if it raises up issues like this it will be gone in seconds .. I know, some of you are very serious about it and I can see why. But the point is that those were made for fun and I (nor did anyone else in my believe) didn't go through the possible loopholes on the way points were calculated. It's a bit silly indeed that one racer (with subscribed team member) can win the team standings - but since no one thought about it in the beginning it's pointless to show it up with "funny" examples now when we just "voted" that there shall be no changes in rules midseason.

Maybe we could start to present some constructive opinions instead - like that possible we should but minimum team size to 5 for next season.. or maybe have a strict rule that there can only be 5 members in team, not more and not less.

I'll move this to improvement suggestions as it no more has nothing to do with on-going season. I hope you approve that.

[quote=varjsa-9;434581]So you are suggesting then that we... ? Because I saw only critics about the current system, but no ideas how to move to better direction.
quote]

For me, it's better to keep it the way it was. To count for the team standings you'll need to have at least 3 drivers subscribed to the season. The points for each event are calculated dividing the total points of the team by the number of drivers that raced that event, and if less than 3 drivers raced you'll get 0 points for that event. Pretty simple, and of course, altough some may think it´s not perfect, it gives a good reading of a team´s perfomance...

I was thinking more like 4-5 members per race - as it used to be in one point. Though I received lot of suggestions to lower that limit so smaller teams could made it in.

It's often really hard to please everyone - usually impossible. But it has been in past, is and will be in future my personal and OLFSL's goal.

So keep those improvement suggestions flowing in - every single one of them is noted

Finally some discussion on topic

My idea of team standings is as follow:

Sum of points gained by A=min(X, number of team members participating in particular event) best drivers of team for particular event divided by max(Y,A), where X is max number of drivers taken into consideration, Y is minimum drivers number and A is real number of drivers participation in event. Teams with less than Y drivers subscribed for season are not taken info further computations.

My suggestion for X and Y values are X=4 and Y=2

Why such formula? With minimum drivers limit formula penalize teams with only one driver participating in events. Probability of winning is minimal here. I don't suggest to give 0 point to team that hasn't all members racing particular event. Everybody has a real life and sometimes cannot race. In such cases point penalty shouldn't be so big. With max team drivers limit formula allows big teams with both great and good drivers to all its members to participate in OLFSL under team flag, without hiding anyone. At particular moment team is as strong as its current strongest members. This formula also allows changes in teams during season without penalty.

Let's see some example:
I take last race into consideration (let's take team ZION, S.CORE, GVR and TPC to show all possible cases)
S.CORE: 113+107+101.5+98 (rest we don't take into consideration)
GVR: 100.5+93+92+90.5 (rest we don't take into consideration)
ZION: 100+97+38 (only 3 drivers)
TPC: 110.5 (only one driver)

so the point are:
S.CORE: 419.5 / max(2,4) = 104.8
GVR: 376 / max(2,4) = 94
ZION: 235 / max(2,3) = 78.3
TPC: 110.5 / max(2,1) = 55.25

So the result are: S.CORE (pool 1 mostly and best score), GVR (pool 3 mostly but lot of members allows to keep good place), ZION (different pools, but small amount of members doesn't allow to compete with GVR. One DFH spoils the result) and TPC (pool 1 but with only one member participation in event worst result of all 4).

Looking forward to see how do u like this idea

Best Regards
Mroziu

First time in ages I must admit being unable to understand your formula.

419.5/max(2,4) = 104,8 ?

Lost my interest to educating myself and passed university - please make it more simple

I also do not understand that formula and do not see why a team with a lot of members should have advantage over a 3 or 4 member team.

There would be a way the lower limit of the team racers who have to participate at an event, could be used though.

Still the points could be the average points of the team members who raced at the event but there could be a limit e.g. that a team must have at least 3 members to each event, if not the points gathered by the, lets say 2 or 1 racer/s who participated the event will be again divided by 3 (or whatever that lower limit number could be).

In that way a team with not enough racers (less than the limit) would take fewer points than normal but above that there will be no point advantage for the teams with many members.

Quote from varjsa-9 :

First time in ages I must admit being unable to understand your formula.

419.5/max(2,4) = 104,8 ?

Lost my interest to educating myself and passed university - please make it more simple

I knew it would be like this. I have a problem with explaining simple things

419.5 divided by maximum of two values (low limit of members participating and number of team member that score was added up). This values are in order 2 and 4. So maximum from that is 4 and that goes to 419.5/4 = 104.8

@kaynd -> for the lower part limit we have the same opinion. Why the upper limit? I try to explain Let's take your team as an example. You have more than 10 drivers in team. You have some good drivers and some average too. OLFSL rules are that all skill levels are welcome. So having some weaker drivers driving under team flag will lower your average score and doesn't allow to compete with team that low skill drivers won't participate in events at all or participate without team flag. By team flag I mean selected team in OLFSL member profile. And this is another possible drawback of team point system. So I suggest to have an upper limit too and take eg. 4 (but can be any number) best team drivers.

Looking from completely different point of view if there would be a team contest you would take only best team drivers not all

I think it is quite fair

Best Regards
Mroziu

In my humble opinion, any league's point system should not worry about matters that should worry the participating teams. I mean it's not the leagues' responsibility to decide which team-members will participate in any race. If a team wants to go for the championship then this team should decide to use only its best drivers in the league. If the team is mostly interested in having fun, then it could participate with a lot of people of several skill levels. And all the intermediate cases! The drivers' selection procedure for a team should always be the team's internal decision (always IMHO).

On the other hand, the league's point system should guarantee fair treatment to any team, no matter how many and which racers of a team participate in any race. As I have already pointed out in previous posts, OLFSL so far seemed to be mostly individual oriented, but I think the time has come to consider whether it wants to be a bit more team oriented. In my eyes it's more than clear that teams are progressing in a rapid rate, providing a more than satisfactory motive for any league to want them.

Fortunately we don't have to re-invent the wheel. Real life and other team-oriented virtual leagues show some quite valid ways to calculate Team Standings. Most of them are closed leagues, meaning fixed, maximum number of teams and fixed number of racers per team, but without caring about how many drivers will drive for a given team throughout the season.

This last part, we should keep it. Obvioulsy in the Drivers Standings the less the race participations of any driver the less the driver's individual points. No need to change anything here. But teams is a different story. Anywhere you look, any team has the right to change as many drivers it wants throughout the season, without having any negative effects in the Team Standings. So this must be the right way to do it, isn't it?

Since we have an open league here, we indeed need some tweaking! Being carefull not to "punish" even more those teams who chose to use many racers (but not favoring them, either). So, 2 suggestions from me:

For both suggestions, we set a minimum number of racers per team (say 3)

a) For each race we divide the collected points of those team-members who participated in the race by their number (or by 3 if they are less than 3, our minimum requirement).

b) We only count the points of the 3 best racers of each team in each race and we ALWAYS divide their points total by 3, even if they are less than 3 (where 3 = our minimum requirement).

Quote from felplacerad :

Wow. What a constructive post. I suppose you've got the perfect solution which will make everyone happy?

Yes....leave points system exactly like it was when this season as started!!

And sarcasm is not the way, dude...



I must say, if the point was to have more drivers... this is not the way.
If the point was to have less drivers and take some of the interess and fairness in this league, congrats...success.

Question:

Is it possible now to a team delete team members just before last race is over, and the points to be considered, will just be the ones from the drivers that stay? , like one or two, out of 6 or more for example??

Quote from FOX 1977 :

Is it possible now to a team delete team members just before last race is over, and the points to be considered, will just be the ones from the drivers that stay? , like one or two, out of 6 or more for example??

You can throw in lines like that, but I'd like to see improvement suggestions here, not just plain complaining and whining.

Yes, it was possible to delete team members at any time (or team members to remove themselves from team) in last season too - as it was when this season started too. Just to mention, staff will know about these changes/removals and will interrupt if needed. Feel free to blow of your hood because of that - but as we all together decided, it is too late to make changes at this point. We just have to deal with what we have and are discussing here what shoud/could be done next season.

Quote from FOX 1977 :

I must say, if the point was to have more drivers... this is not the way.
If the point was to have less drivers and take some of the interess and fairness in this league, congrats...success.

Point was not to have more drivers, neither was it to take off interess or fairness. As a matter of fact there was no special "point" in coding the site to show team standings for you. It was just another improvement like national standings. I thought that the old system (which we currently mostly are back in) was fair in your eyes since you were one of those demanding to revert to it!

Write something constructive or please write nothing at all.

I'm a bit confused. After the Team Standings re-opening, are the team-points collected in each race divided by the number of all team-racers ever raced at least one race in the season, by the number of all team-racers subscribed to this season (even if some of them never raced a single race) or by the number of team-racers participated in the specific race (that is, separately in a race by race basis)?

As stated on site:

Quote :

Team Standings

We have (again) changed the way we calculate team standings.

Old way was to add up points from participated team members per race and divide by number of team members in that race. Only change made was that team can now qualify to team standings with only 1 racer - though there must be at least 2 team members subscribed to season.

I hope this will satisfy the members.

Yes, I think it does satisfy the members. And the members are thakful for the attention

Thanks Varisa! This, btw, means that we don't really care if some teams delete any of their members throughout the season, even if they do it one race before the last one. Since the calcualtions are done in a race by race basis, everything is cool (well, except those 1 member teams, but ok we can't have everything mid-season).

In my point of view, the only needed change for next season is to work out the minimum required members for each team (perhaps we should increase it to 3 or 4) and divide the team-total in each race by that number when the team races with less members.

Quote from varjsa-9 :

Write something constructive or please write nothing at all.

I did..... " Leave points system exactly like it was when this season as started."

Maybe you don't recognize, that warning someone from doing a mistake, is something constructive... im not against you as you may think... in my perspective, me and others are trying to help.... and the tone used on your replys lead to the tone on my replys also.
In my country we don't call opinions - " throwing rocks " .

Btw, i think this is not the 1º time the rules are changed in mid season... and also at that time alot of people didn't like also...maybe this mid season changes aren't such a bright idea after all, no?

Ok....don't worry, im not giving my opinion anymore. It aint worth it, by the look of things.

Keep up with the good work.








.

Thanks for the effort Sami/OLFSL staff.

Quote from FOX 1977 :

I did..... " Leave points system exactly like it was when this season as started."

Maybe you don't recognize, that warning someone from doing a mistake, is something constructive... im not against you as you may think... in my perspective, me and others are trying to help.... and the tone used on your replys lead to the tone on my replys also.
In my country we don't call opinions - " throwing rocks " .

Btw, i think this is not the 1º time the rules are changed in mid season... and also at that time alot of people didn't like also...maybe this mid season changes aren't such a bright idea after all, no?

Ok....don't worry, im not giving my opinion anymore. It aint worth it, by the look of things.

Keep up with the good work.
.

Just wanted to clear out - I did't mention anything about rocks, or throwing them. My tone was response to your attitude, or the way I interpreted your text anyway.

And about leaving points system like it was at season start... this is not the plan. But as you may have noticed the others trying to help added some new ideas - some of them quite interesting and worth considering too - to their posts, and that's what I felt was lacking from yours.

This really is not the first time rules (or some other things like points calculations, teams added to OLFSL...) are changed - not by far. But it's the second time out of those many changes that people have raised against - and to which we responded in my opinion quite quickly and smoothly. Mid-season changes are not such a bright idea maybe, but it's way more brighter than go on with something that doesn't work for about 3/4 year.

My work has not been so good lately - I've had quite lousy 6 months in my real life (yes, OLFSL staff indeed has their personal lifes too) and have been offline & out of "office" a lot. Maybe I have lost an inch of the touch required to keep our members happy, but I guarantee that mine and OLFSL staffers goal is to bring you fair and interesting races - and meanwhile try to improve our league constantly. It's a lot of work and your kind words are appreciated.

..and as we are still some days from next event I made temporary change to team points, let's see if you can spot it.