I didn't read all posts, but i DID read one interesting comment:

Quote :

Quote from Thorvertonian:

"If you want equal cars, race the same cars!!!!!"

Actually, that's a very good point. How come when everyone drives
the same car, we don't all finish at the exact same time? Pardon me
for being simplistic, but honestly, if 2 identical cars can't provide equal
times, what's the logic in saying ' Equal cars for more exciting races.' ?
This is where you go to a thread saying setups is the 'problem', lol.

I'll even go one step further, this here is ALL talk. I'm fed up with this argument
and i've decided i'll DO something about it. With the recent release of MecaniK,
you CAN experiment and alter the balance of car classes. I'd like to come up
with more balance GTR cars for example and see what the outcome is.

I'm sorry, but i have a scientific approach to things and talking (writing)
doesn't change anything imo. We've gone throught this subject quite a
few times and it always ends up being opinions and perceptions. I want numbers,
tests, results, etc... to get a clearer and more objective opinion on this. Exchanging
ideas is not bad, but it's not providing any more answers or proofs.

I agree Fonny! I think the vast majority of my races are in single car grids, and I've never noticed closer racing for it (i.e. mixed car grid aren't less competative).

You'll get the closest racing when your lap times are very similar to everyone elses, and the best way to find that is to enter leagues where the average skill level tends to be a bit higher.

there seems to be a point where people get a bit too skilled and large gaps start opening up though div b always provides closer and (imho) better racing than div a, in the AAL league.

I think the 'equal cars for more exciting races' thing is valid... it's a more interesting race with different, but still fairly equal, cars.

My opinion on this thread is that it's starting to sound like a bunch of (RL) Nascar teams. You know, where Nascar allows an extra 1/4 inch on the bumper of the Fords and the Chevy and Dodge guys are all crying because they are "so much faster". Then the Chevy's get a 1/4 inch and the Ford guys are crying. Well, if you think that car is faster, then drive that car! I have been pretty much driving the GTR cars exclusively since S2 came out, particularly the FZR. I have seen close racing between all three cars, I have seen all three cars finish 1, 2, 3 with the FZR NOT being the winner. I have raced folks who constantly switch between the two where they were racing with me (FZR) in the FXR, then I was smoking them when they chose the FZR or XRR. I have also many, many times been thoroughly spanked by both FXR's and XRR's while driving my FZR. Maybe just a tiny little refinement needs to be done, but I think if anything major would change in any of the cars, the balance would then get all screwed up. The only monkey wrench I would like to see thrown into the equation is an American based front engined, rear wheel drive, lower rpm redline V8. Something like a Mustang/Camaro combination.

Yeah, on a mixed skill driverset everything can happen. But with equally skillful drivers it is like this, no matter what you say:

FZR >> XRR >>>>>>>>>>> FXR

(In endurance, XRR might swap places with FZR)
Then you can argue, "but the FXR ownz at short twisty tracks". Well, who takes GTR cars on short twisty tracks?

People talk in too simplistic terms in regards to this topic, there are so many variables that like I said above they will never be equal. Equal under what conditions? Equally skilled drivers? Sorry but even in leagues you'll rarely get 20 equally skilled drivers on the same server.
The AAL ran a five race GTR series earlier this year and the XRR was a very popular choice, if not more popular than both the others and this is running 1hr+ races.
Would you believe I came third in the DivA race at Westhill in an FZR behind two XRRs and that I ran a one stop strategy when the XRRs ran a two stop strategy? Totally opposite to the supposed advantages of both cars.

Gah, should've said "somewhat equally skillful drivers". Of course you don't get a race with exactly equal drivers. The point is, on most tracks you need to be a very good FXR driver to beat a mediocre FZR driver.

Yep, the gap between FXR & FZR/XRR is rather wide. I have to push everything to keep doing low 44s on As3 and pray the FZR in front makes a mistake accelerating out of each corner every lap so I can draft.. and still they (good drivers) do almost a second faster laps when I drive such times

But XRR should be able to keep up (more or less anyway) with the FZR. There more or less equal drivers can have a good race!

I just tried XRR in KY3 and even though I was little over second slower than in FZR (in best lap) I could easily pull 8 laps without melting my tires, while in FZR it took a lot of time to make the R2s last for 5 laps. And the difference is going to be smaller because I have driven the XRR under 50 laps in KY3 while the FZR over 200 laps, mostly offline...

Even if you let the XRR slide a bit (and the turbo kicks in at the same time so you get huge slides) the tires don't really get so damaged as they do in FZR. So in longer races where tire wear and fuel consumption are critical, I'd choose XRR. But in short races FZR just kicks *ss. FXR could be little faster on straights but it's way more easier to drive than the other two. Driving the rwd race cars is much more challenging than the FXR, because every acceleration has its risks. With FXR you can just floor the throttle and there is no lift-throttle-oversteer. XRR needs a better turbo.

Maybe the race length has too much impact in car performance?

If my memory serves me correctly, someone suggested adding a sequential turbo to XRR back in the RSC forum. That would cure the epic turbo lag problem, but would it actually help the XRR to keep up in the start? Not much weight on rear tyres nor AWD, so probably all you'd get were even more of wheelspin and smoke.

Quote :

Driving the rwd race cars is much more challenging than the FXR, because every acceleration has its risks. With FXR you can just floor the throttle and there is no lift-throttle-oversteer.

Actually, with LSDs you can get lift off and acceleration oversteer easily in the FXR too. I was playing around with the settings earlier and for the first time in a long time I spun it accelerating out of a tight corner, w/o touching the grass. Needless to say I went back to locked diffs. lol.

But when using a realistic low-nose setup, u really need LSDs to get the bastard to turn after a few laps, so this sort of phenomenon is not all that rare.. Having said that, it's still possible to nail the throttle with a bit more practice.

Quote :

FXR could be little faster on straights but it's way more easier to drive than the other two

How ever easy the FXR is to drive, it's still simply not possible to keep up. It definitely needs more top speed. Losing 1-2 sec per lap no matter how spectacularly low the tyre wear & fuel consumption are, is too much to keep up with the other GTRs. (jmo..)

Quote from NotAnIllusion :

How ever easy the FXR is to drive, it's still simply not possible to keep up. It definitely needs more top speed. Losing 1-2 sec per lap no matter how spectacularly low the tyre wear & fuel consumption are, is too much to keep up with the other GTRs. (jmo..)

I remember the first times when I was driving the FZR after the FXR. It was just impossible to make 5 adequate laps in a row without spinning or at least making a big slide. At the time I started racing the GTRs with the FXR (first GTR car for me. Ah the "old" times...) the only place I spun was the chicane in AS3. But when I got my lines "balanced" it was almost impossible to spin the car. Only if I floored the throttle too early I got some wide slides The chicane in AS3 was still my weak spot.

So what I'm saying is that it's easier to be consistent with FXR with less experience. For me the FZR was almost instantly faster than the FXR but keeping that thing on the black stuff was beyond this reality So the challenge in FXR is to drive all the time on the limit and in the FZR the challenge is just keeping the thing on road. imho. period. (but some of the FXR drivers are just too fast )

Hello,
It's not too much that i'm racing online since S2 has been released.
I've suddenldy started to use GTR cars, and since i've always driven FXO, i've started using the FXR. I felt good when driving it. I've also tried FZR and XRR, but the second one was too difficult to be driven at limit, while the FZR appeared to be more handy. Anyway, i'm quite an unperfect driver, i do many errors and i drive quite dirt, so the FZR didn't fit me.
Anyway, in these last days, i've raced on SO town. I've managed to get very close to the WR of the FXR on this track (i'm 0.9secs behind). I guess that for many other experienced drivers -0.9s from a WR is an abyss.. but for me it's surprisingly NEAR.
I race LFS even before 0.5a version, and i've always been from 2 to 4 secs slower from the WR on any track (with qualifyng setups and so). So i felt fast, until i've raced with FZR's again. They can do my 1'16''xx WITH A RACE SETUP, while i can reach that time with almost no fuel and with tyres that last in 4 laps.. Yesterday i've asked one of my friends of my team (IRT) to tell me how he setted up his rear wing on his FZR. He told me "23". To get decent times, i need to put 4-5 on my rear wing!! And I pay to FZR's up to 5-10km/h on the straight, not counting how much i loose in the turns, since i have 5 times less downforce.
I also destroy even r4 tyres in 20 laps, and of course, if i need to do 20 laps, my times get far and far away from the 1'16'' (in fact i'm around 1'18'' as best and the average lap is around 1'20'').
I can also say that i did a 30 lap race on AS historic, 2 strategy pit using all R2s, and i took at the end of the race 90'' of gap from an FZR having the same strategy of me (obviously i lost just trying to have the same strategy, but i'm saying this to underline the difference between the cars). In few words i took 3 secs per lap of gap from an FZR. Which is the gap between the WR's of the FZR and FXR on Historic.

I guess that the FXR has one advantage: it burns very low fuel. But i guess that i may handle this advantage ONLY on very long races, like 6hrs in which i obviuously have to pit less than FZRs. But i don't have time either to run a 6hrs race!

What i'm saying is that I think we should have a more balanced GTR class. I know FXR is easyer to drive but:
-to be as fast as possible i need to push harder and harder, and my tyres last even before FZR's ones.
-i've got VERY LOW top speed (which should be quite right, because i have the AWD traction that makes friction)
-I've got turbo lag (devastating because it's hard to come out fast from slow turns)
-I need to keep my wings near 0 to compensate top speed loss, so I'm obviously slower in turns since i don't have downforce.

I've read all the topic, and obviously i agree with those that would like to see some more "variety" in this class. I know that top-notch drivers can drive XRR and FXR very close tho their limits, but it's also true that a same level driver using an FZR would always beat them. I don't know if it's planned in the next physics update, but i'd really like to see reducing this gap between these cars in future. I understand the FXR is easyer to drive than the other 2 race cars, and i think it should always be a bit less faster than the FZR.. but as things are now, the gap is way too much.
Maybe developers' thought was to advantage XRR and FXR over very long race distances, and maybe you can all confirm this to me (just for matter of times it's very hard for me to find time to do a 6hrs race, and i think i'm not alone, since i don't live to play a game ).

I hope what i said can be understood (sorry if i made mistakes in my english ) and i'd like read any answer to this damn long post

I agree with you about the FXR, it just doesn't seem to be competitive under any circumstances but I think the XRR and FZR should remain the same.
I really like the FZR, not simply because it's fast but but because it's RWD and naturally aspirated and being rear engined it is unique but in the aforementioned league in some races I drove the XRR because it was clearly better.

Quote from J_Matrix :

I guess that the FXR has one advantage: it burns very low fuel. But i guess that i may handle this advantage ONLY on very long races, like 6hrs in which i obviuously have to pit less than FZRs. But i don't have time either to run a 6hrs race!

The sad thing is, it even burns more fuel than the XRR. And it has a worse tyre usage too.

The only tracks where the FXR comes close to the others from a laptime point of view is probably the SO tracks. And even if you can match the speed of the other cars, to archive that you are driving much more aggressive and material destroying than the others do when driving the same laptimes.

does anyone else here besides me want a rwd car to compete in the same class as the xfr ufr?

Quote from Gabkicks :

does anyone else here besides me want a rwd car to compete in the same class as the xfr ufr?

Me
Or maybe want is too strong word, but I would not mind that at all.

Quote from Gabkicks :

does anyone else here besides me want a rwd car to compete in the same class as the xfr ufr?

Or how about just a nice small rwd racing car that doesn't have to be compromised by being slotted into a class. Multi-car classes are overrated (imo).

Quote from Gabkicks :

does anyone else here besides me want a rwd car to compete in the same class as the xfr ufr?

Me, me! But what would they do about naming it? The XRGT is basically in the same class as the XFGTi. So, beings it would be a GTR car, we couldn't call it an XRR as this is already the Turbo GT GTR. We couldn't use the GT part of XRGT in the name making it GTR, because the full name would then be GTR GTR. All these initials for car names really start to get confusing after a while. We do need a RWD for the slower GTR car class. WTF, OMG, ROFL, LMAO, I just wrote initials/acronyms 11 times in 3 sentences up there, LOL!

they could just "racetune" the xrg. it would be the XRGR.

Quote from AndroidXP :

The sad thing is, it even burns more fuel than the XRR. And it has a worse tyre usage too.

The only tracks where the FXR comes close to the others from a laptime point of view is probably the SO tracks. And even if you can match the speed of the other cars, to archive that you are driving much more aggressive and material destroying than the others do when driving the same laptimes.

Yes, you're right, the car burns more than the XRR. I guess it was my fault because i were too slow with it and so i thought the fuel consuption btw FXR and XRR was almost the same.
Anyway as you say, on very long races it's true that with an FXR you burn less fuel than FZRs, but i don't get advantage from this because i need to pit before i end my fuel because my tyres burn faster

About a small RWD call in XFGTR an UFR i'd agree.. but i guess that here we are speaking of "balancing" issues, which are supposed to be more possible than adding a new car (and balance it with patches and so on). I really hope that devs will hear our scream for having a slighlty more competitive FXR!

Sorry for heating up dead and buried threads.
For compensation I'll try to phrase it short:
- A comparison of cars should be made over all tracks and over all durations. Aston National isn't actually the only track in LFS.
- It's impossible that the cars are equal. It's the task of the leagues to find out tracks/durations where all cars perform equally well. If the FZR is too fast on short races, make the race longer. If the FXR is too slow on long and wide tracks, drive Blackwood both standard and reversed in your league.
- Accept the LFS-world as given. You may suggest things, but all in all the constants in the game should be viewed as that - constant. That will do away with all "Oh, the devs are soo evil and mean." and open you're thoughts for "Oh, it will be tricky to beat the XRR on that duration. I'd better get practicing now."

Angryminer

Quote from Vain :

Sorry for heating up dead and buried threads.
For compensation I'll try to phrase it short:
- A comparison of cars should be made over all tracks and over all durations. Aston National isn't actually the only track in LFS.
- It's impossible that the cars are equal. It's the task of the leagues to find out tracks/durations where all cars perform equally well. If the FZR is too fast on short races, make the race longer. If the FXR is too slow on long and wide tracks, drive Blackwood both standard and reversed in your league.
- Accept the LFS-world as given. You may suggest things, but all in all the constants in the game should be viewed as that - constant. That will do away with all "Oh, the devs are soo evil and mean." and open you're thoughts for "Oh, it will be tricky to beat the XRR on that duration. I'd better get practicing now."

Angryminer

Right, but as we already said, not everybody can drive for hours a very long race. Furthermore, the FXR has got a very bad tyre consumption, which doesn't allow it to compete over long distances taking advantage of lower fuel consuption compared to FZR. The FXR lose on the straight without top speed, lose in turns, because without downforce, lose in fuel consumption and tyre consumption with XRR. I've read somewhere else that devs admitted that the FXR has something wrong.
You're right when you say that 3 cars so different can't be the same. But at least there should not be a difference of 2 from 3 seconds of gap on many tracks, and the car that lose is almost always the FXR. That's just not right.
"Accept the LFS-world as given": right, but not that right i think. I've been a developer too, and what happens when you're developing something, is that you have to deal with a community of players. Sometimes it's hard to follow certain suggestions just because most of players bother your decisions, but some other times, players do suggest very good things, that you may have neither thought about. What i mean is that LFS-world is made also for us, so we have the chance, at least, to suggest things to the devs. Nobody thinks they are evil and mean, not at all!! I would never think this, even if in the next patch the FXR will remain the same. I have a great respect for who is developing this game, for many reasons that is useless i list here. I hope you can get my point of view

Just finished a 4 hour race on Aston GP with GTR's 2 days ago. While the FZR was the fastest car on track, it had to take 2 more stops than the XRR. So the XRR's could save appr. 80s over the 4 hours. Though if you take a very fast guy on the FZR and one in the XRR, (same skills) the FZR would nevertheless probably win over the distance. So you could say that the lower fuel consumption of the XRR doesn't make the car equal to the FZR even on longer distances.
Of course this only is my opinion and i could be wrong.