Quote from anttt69 :

Sorry but you still dont explain how half a car overlap is his right to the corner? You also do not take into account the type of corner we are approaching. IMO if I had had left room for both of us to enter the corner then their would of been contact at the chicane as two cars could not go side by side through that part of the track.

The incident came down to who was prepared to yield first & as I was in front of him & had track position. I was not prepared to yield. (he crashed into me because he refused to yield)

I am not saying that I am not at fault, simply that it was both of our faults & was indeed an avoidable incident. I dispute the fact that he had the right to the corner I have always raced on the premise that you must have more than half a car overlap to have the right to a corner, in this situation he did not. However if your league rules differ to that of real life racing then I will accept I was in the wrong.

I think if you look at the wider picture you have to take into account the type of corner we were approaching & how far through the race we were. I viewed it as an ambitious pass at such an early stage in a long race, infact there was no need for him to have attempted the pass at that corner. Just bad timing & err's on both our parts.

If you still believe that this incident was purely my fault then I need to look at the way I race in LFS, I was only protecting my position.

Hey Ant,

Ok, if there is an overlap of an over taking car and the overlap is about half then the guy doing the passing has rights to the corner....

this is what is stated EVERYWHERE, however, what is not commonly stated is the next bit....

...at this point the guy who is being passed also has rights to the corner.

so at this stage both of you have rights (still with me?)

at this point you BOTH has a duty to make it through the corner.

The guy on the outside has to give the APEX of the corner to the guy on the inside. If you don't give him the apex then there is no way that he can make the corner and will crash.

If that happens that would be the fault of the guy who was on the outside.

Similarly the reverse is true.

The guy on the inside that is along side you has the duty to give the guy on the outside a line that he can drive too (meaning the guy on the inside has to give a car's width on the outside for his competitor to remain on the track. (still with me?)

So ok, we look at the incident in question turn 1 lap 2.

Tongey has the inside but is clearly not passed you

You are on the outside with Tongey somewhere on your inside.

Now you have the duty to give Tongey the apex of the corner, whilst Tongey has to give you the apron (outside) for this to be fair.

Now as you turned in at your normal turnin spot there was no way that there was going to be a cars width at the apex for tongey to take, there for in that specific incident you are too blame.

if you had left a gap for tongey then as you went through the chicane, if tongey then did run the normal line across to the left hand kerb, he would have run you off the run therefore then if the accident had happened then TONGEY would have been to blame for not letting you have the apron which is your rights.

(Still with me?)



I hope that explains the situation better.

Regarding your questioning of the rights, you are perfectly entilted to, however in the heat of a race you can not determine at what point the opponent is, for instance i don't think that you knew exactly where Tongey was therefore how could you have told whether he had the rights to the corner?

Basically you have to use common sense, most accidents ARE avoidable, would it have really been that bad to have turned in a few meters later just to make sure?

The other thing that was mentioned was about the point in the race and the posisitioning of the pass.

Personally i see no wrong in either, you were slower down the straght and tongey was all over you. if it was me and i have seen that you'd make a mistake and i was along side you (bearing in mind that in qualifying you were much quicker than Tongey) that might have been my only oppotunity in the race and as my car was alongside you i would have every intention on making a pass.

Sure we both would have probalby been slower through the corner but thats racing. Passing and battleing means you can not drive 'hotlap' lines and is part of racing and thus also distinguishes it from time trialing or hot lapping events.

Hopefully you see my logic here and understand what we have done and why we have done it.

I strongly beleive that most leagues are opperating the same rules

Regards,

Dru.

Quote from mikey_G :

In a rules book I know it specifies that if you have at least 50% overlap at the brake point and turn in point the corner is yours. In this case that was only at the turn in point. In this case it's the job of the car overtaking to not cause a incident.

In this case you actually caused the accident.

You say that Tongey should have at least, (or more than) a 50% overlap at turn in & he did not.(when i turned in)
You also say "it's the job of the car overtaking to not cause an incident". You can plainly see as I come across to cover my line which I am entitled to do & tongey did not yeild. It was his responsibility not to cause an incident & although he cannot see into the future he did not err on the side of caution. The incident was avoidable however we were both at fault.

Quote from anttt69 :

Sorry Mr Mikey but you are blatently wrong & your points above further prove the point I was trying to make above.

You say that Tongey should have at least, (or more than) a 50% overlap at turn in & he did not.(when i turned in)
You also say "it's the job of the car overtaking to not cause an incident". You can plainly see as I come across to cover my line which I am entitled to do & tongey did not yeild. It was his responsibility not to cause an incident & although he cannot see into the future he did not err on the side of caution. The incident was avoidable however we were both at fault.

Tongey did have 50% overlap at turn-in point.

You can say tongey should have given you room, but how much? You pointed the car to a place where there was no road. Seriously, what did you expect of that?
That tongey yielded the line to your imaginary point somewhere in a barrier, or the racing line of turn 1??

Picture:

Should've tongey yielded to a line into the barrier?

Quote from mikey_G :

Picture:

Should've tongey yielded to a line into the barrier?

That shot doesn't look representative. He's braking, the left rear has let go and so it looks like he's oversteering. Is that really his trajectory or just the way the car is pointing?

Quote from thisnameistaken :

That shot doesn't look representative. He's braking, the left rear has let go and so it looks like he's oversteering. Is that really his trajectory or just the way the car is pointing?

It was his trajectory too, and that is the root of the problem. In my eyes tongey did have 50% overlap, and ant put his car on a crash course through t1.
Now why should tongey get a penalty for this move? He had 50% overlap and was steering to the turn 1 apex. Should he have steered along with ant into a wall? I don't think so.

Should Ant get a penalty? The car who wanted to overtake him was all along him on the straight, and at turn-in the overlap was 50%. Does that give ant the right to create an imaginary apex and force tongey towards it?
No, I don't think so.

Should ant get a penalty for this which doesn't even cost him any points? Yes. Tongey had as many rights as ant had to go through the corner, yet he drives an impossible line for tongey to comply to, and that's the reason why he got a 10 second penalty.


So that leaves Ant with 1 penalty in each session of the last round. A real achievement. I hope this doesnt happen in the finale round.

I wasn't challenging your decision (it's none of my business!), I just thought that screenie didn't look representative of the situation, that's all.

Seems from reading the forums that this league has been a bit of a stress for you ZWR guys. Hope you've had some fun doing it, too.

Heh, no prob kev. But yeah, it's fun to plan a league but I got disappointed quickly, especially in certain people.
Anyhow, I'm happy tomorrow is the last round ever

Last round ever? So there isn't gonna be a season 2?

Quote from thisnameistaken :

I wasn't challenging your decision (it's none of my business!), I just thought that screenie didn't look representative of the situation, that's all.

Seems from reading the forums that this league has been a bit of a stress for you ZWR guys. Hope you've had some fun doing it, too.

there was fun involved once i think Kev . . . i think it was the night that we thought up the idea of running this league.. it went 'lets run a UF1 league'... 'cool' and 'that would be fun' ..... lol

Quote from Leifde :

Last round ever? So there isn't gonna be a season 2?

well lets just say that there won't be any plans for an immediate series 2.

Its been a momoth job for only a few individuals and well, running a 2 division league was certainly jumping in at the dep end, but you have to start or try somewhere don't you...

maybe depending upon what happens we could let another team 'run' the second divison, basically say that the UF1 - Mayhem Cup is handed over to another team like Moo or Piston Broke Racing (or whoever wants a stab at running it) and use what we have here as a guide and maybe tweeak one or two things that maybe did not work in this series who knows.

Who knows, would that be an idea, passing on an established league for another team to get experience with running a league but tweaking it for the impending Patch X release...

That would be soo much fun.. success ballest, false starts etc etc..FAB

I can't speak for the rest of the team but I would be interested in running it. The only problem is that I wouldn't like to race and admin, I wouldn't like to be put into any situations where someone could accuse me of bias.

Anyway, I am interested if you feel like handing over one of the divisions to us.

Quote from Leifde :

I can't speak for the rest of the team but I would be interested in running it. The only problem is that I wouldn't like to race and admin, I wouldn't like to be put into any situations where someone could accuse me of bias.

Anyway, I am interested if you feel like handing over one of the divisions to us.

well the question must surely be has or does anyone feel that ZWR's presence in the league as well as running it has affected any decisions etc etc??

I would say not, but then agai , i would be biased (and thus emphasizing your point further)

regarding divisions i would say that with the new version of LFS comnig out, it would be good just to have 1 division of 20-26 cars, maybe even say 10-13 2 man teams etc

runnnig the races is easy enuff, people turn up and you race - the hardest bit is all the behind the scenes stuff that takes all the time.... say for instance taking 4 admins to review the Tongey/Ant incidents at FE Green, that one took i reckon 3/4 hours for us to reach our decision..

Also stuff like rules, entry lists etc etc all takes time..

it's a big commitmentm but maybe if the load was shared (say forinstance you could have it run by 4/5 people all from differnet teams) it would lighten the load and make it more enjoyable all round. Also a season 2 would be easier becuase most things are already in place or at least a known quantity that people could dicuss rule changes rather than different rules which neither have been tested at that point etc etc..

Quote from mikey_G :

Picture:

Should've tongey yielded to a line into the barrier?

All this pic shows is that my car oversteered due to me braking to avoid the accident. If you go inside the car you will see me opposite locking as well.

This is not represent of my trajectory.

Anyway its all over now I hope there are less hasles next time. Thank you & Dru for organising this fun league & Congrats to Paul & Tongey.

b4 i go just have to end a discussion with tongey that was closed b4 i could answer: tongey: "Did you not see David Coulthard being banned from Session 3 in Quali because of slowing down Kovalainen
This meant the Scot went from a possible 8th Grid position to 13th

So YES - Blue flags DO exist in qualifying "

Yes I saw that tongey but blue flags are not used during qualifying. Not in F1 anyways. Blue flags do not exist during qualifying . (infact it might be a good idea as the coulthard thing happened because of wrong info from his team, he was unaware)

Quote from anttt69 :

All this pic shows is that my car oversteered due to me braking to avoid the accident. If you go inside the car you will see me opposite locking as well.

This is not represent of my trajectory.

Sorry, but I don't believe you and the replay shows otherwise. You braked and turned in at the same time, which caused you to be put into that trajectory. You did nothing to avoid the accident, you actually caused it by taking a shorter line to the t1 apex then possible.

Quote from anttt69 :

Yes I saw that tongey but blue flags are not used during qualifying. Not in F1 anyways. Blue flags do not exist during qualifying .

It looks like you know the rules. What does it say about blocking when you're on your out lap and making avoidable contact with someone on his fast lap?


Anyhow, I'm still amazed that you want to talk about incidents which:
a) were 1 round ago
b) didn't cause you to lose any points
c) you are no longer part of apparently, otherwise you'd had joined the enduro


Anyways, I'm not gonna spend any more time on this stuff since the season ended. I hope you find something more worthwhile to do then posting appeal after appeal.

closed season over