Quote from Shotglass :

speaking of which ... you somewhere posted that cfd is still way off in some cases
have you got any hard data on that ? just out of interest

Because it's not very accurate in transient cases, or when following another car (as the wakes of cars are vastly more complicated than the idealised CFD modelling). But I don't have hard proof, no. Last year a friend of mine was attempting to model a tyre in CFD, and spoke to various F1 teams about it, for his masters degree. He was told (and they might have been lying) that it's not something they can do themselves accurately, so anything he did would have to be fairly gross approximations. If F1 teams/tyre manufacturers can't model flexible tyres in use with bodywork around it from an aerodynamic standpoint, I can't see LFS doing so.

Quote from Shotglass :

you have been on the bug test servers havent you ?
its absolutely the single most annoying issue with lfs atm and to make it worse murphys law applies whenever i am involved ^^

Yup, in BF1s to UF1s, and I didn't see, or be involved in, any crash like that. A few knocks, bumps and spins at T1 , but nothing I'd call 'bad netcode'. And I'm on crappy, laggy wireless at home

Quote from tristancliffe :

Because it's not very accurate in transient cases, or when following another car (as the wakes of cars are vastly more complicated than the idealised CFD modelling).

any gross heuristic number how inaccurate were talking ?

Quote :

If F1 teams/tyre manufacturers can't model flexible tyres in use with bodywork around it from an aerodynamic standpoint, I can't see LFS doing so.

well yes but how much difference does it really make and how long are the transient pahses anyway ?
i would imagine that with air being rather thin youd have a hard time caputring any transient behaviour in a 2khz loop at all

Quote :

Yup, in BF1s to UF1s, and I didn't see, or be involved in, any crash like that. A few knocks, bumps and spins at T1 , but nothing I'd call 'bad netcode'. And I'm on crappy, laggy wireless at home

its not the netcode anyway
ive often experienced minor taps and panel rubbing that sent me in a spin and on the other hand ive seen hard crashes that looked more or less convincing
with the current state of affairs it seems a bit like you could just as well roll a dice and if it turns up odd you continue driving normally if it turns up even you slam the wheel to full lock ... its just as random

Quote from tristancliffe :

Because it's not very accurate in transient cases, or when following another car (as the wakes of cars are vastly more complicated than the idealised CFD modelling). But I don't have hard proof, no. Last year a friend of mine was attempting to model a tyre in CFD, and spoke to various F1 teams about it, for his masters degree. He was told (and they might have been lying) that it's not something they can do themselves accurately, so anything he did would have to be fairly gross approximations. If F1 teams/tyre manufacturers can't model flexible tyres in use with bodywork around it from an aerodynamic standpoint, I can't see LFS doing so.

He should of spoke to someone else apart from honda f1

Simon

Quote from Scawen :

Well, I've said many, many, many, many times, that I'd do this :

Fully Compatible Patches <- DONE
Multiplayer Incompatible Patches <- NEARLY DONE
Physically Incompatible Patches <- SOON STARTING

So, it's all gone exactly as planned so far, only there were a lot more things added in each stage. That's a good sign, isn't it?

Well, THE MAN has spoken and as far as I'm concerned, he has given us his personal assurance that LFS will only get better. Patch X is obviously more netcode related than physics related, though clutch diffs have done a lot to solve the "why is my clutch diffed RWD car so ridiculously unstable off throttle and mid corner whilst being so ineffective on power?" problem. I remember in another thread that he told us that everything physics related will get more emphasis especially after patch X, so why all this whining?

Quote from Jamexing :

so why all this whining?

beats me

Quote from Scawen :

Well, I've said many, many, many, many times, that I'd do this :

Fully Compatible Patches <- DONE
Multiplayer Incompatible Patches <- NEARLY DONE
Physically Incompatible Patches <- SOON STARTING

So, it's all gone exactly as planned so far, only there were a lot more things added in each stage. That's a good sign, isn't it?

What are you wasting time posting on forums for????
You think that we all spent our hard earned money and spent all our time learning how to properly play LFS just so you can just goof off all day on the forums????
And how come you never return my P.M.s asking why you're wasting time reading P.M.s????? I've sent at least 50 of them!!!!

anyone with half a clue should know I ain't serious about that, but if you gotta have posts that are basically critical of the time frame for development, then that's how it should be done

BTW "Physically incompatible patches"? I ain't gotta clue what that means.
I guess it's important

@ Speed Soro:

Is it just me, or do you always post threads like this around this time of year? And no, I'm not complaining, it just seems like you posted threads similar to this one this time last year and I think the year before that as well.

Scawen, "soon" in English means "within a short time"?

And short time means? Ok.. let's forget the "when". This is not a "when" thread.

Scawen, you know I'm not bashing you, I really respect you and your work and trully love this game, but after watch for so long time your enforcement in peripheral things that the most are not really necessary, I start concerning if the "part that matters" of the game is just what we see right now.

You always say about plans, but you always hide what is planned.

I just want to know "what" things "will" be in this game, cause after so many months I start distrusting in such obscure plan.

What is S3 in the end?

Quote from Speed Soro :

peripheral things that the most are not really necessary

This is your personal opinion, not a fact

Quote :

I start concerning

Don´t.

Quote :

You always say about plans, but you always hide what is planned.

Bollocks. Scawen hardly reveals anything and he doesn´t hide.

stop your whining please.

Quote from GeneralElectric :

@ joen, you're starting to sound like angry angel, no need for the language imo

It's come out of sear frustration I think, some times my mind can longer articulate a response in any way at all and it's just swearing that comes out.

Quote from Shotglass :

any gross heuristic number how inaccurate were talking ?

Hmmm, I'd say 30 - 40% inaccurate at the moment.

Quote from Shotglass :

well yes but how much difference does it really make and how long are the transient pahses anyway ?
i would imagine that with air being rather thin youd have a hard time caputring any transient behaviour in a 2khz loop at all

Transient behaviour is the 'buzzword' in high level motorsport. Probably not a problem for LFS in most of the cars, but critical for F1 car simulation and F1 car development. I'm pretty sure that in the last three or four years most, if not all the top F1 teams have said they have good basic balance (static state) which can be modelled or tested realtively well, but struggle when the wheels are being steering, or the nose is raising/lowering on bumps and on the brakes/power.

On an LX I don't think the transient aerodynamic behaviour would be a problem at all though

Quote from Shotglass :

its not the netcode anyway
ive often experienced minor taps and panel rubbing that sent me in a spin and on the other hand ive seen hard crashes that looked more or less convincing
with the current state of affairs it seems a bit like you could just as well roll a dice and if it turns up odd you continue driving normally if it turns up even you slam the wheel to full lock ... its just as random

In real life I've seen panel tapping turn into spins. Whilst LFS might not be 'accurate' in it's collision detection, I've never really noticed anything as 'really bad'.

The only thing I tend to notice is the big autocross barriers, occasional building clipping, and moving inside someones car when they lag. I rarely see flying cars whilst racing. Maybe I'm just lucky

Quote from Shotglass :

ive often experienced minor taps and panel rubbing that sent me in a spin and on the other hand ive seen hard crashes that looked more or less convincing
with the current state of affairs it seems a bit like you could just as well roll a dice and if it turns up odd you continue driving normally if it turns up even you slam the wheel to full lock ... its just as random

The gentle taps and rubbing are the awkward ones because a little lag can cause overlap and them the physics engine has to resolve that. That's hard. A high velocity impact is much easier to predict and solve for.

Quote from GeneralElectric :

Yep, but some ppl round here tend to forget that kids in school/college are here. We don't want too loose some of our community because of this do we, just no need for foul language, there's youngens amoungst us so zip it an pm it if ye must

Who are you? You're not a noob to LFS (as you made reference to TAA), and your English is too good, imo, to be a second language from your country.

I can't stand people who hide behind second usernames. It just smacks of cowardliness. Post with your normal account, you big pansy!

Quote from GeneralElectric :

Yep, but some ppl round here tend to forget that kids in school/college are here. We don't want too loose some of our community because of this do we, just no need for foul language, there's youngens amoungst us so zip it an pm it if ye must

LOL I had to read and re-read joen's post to try and find the "foul" language. Meh the youngens must have real sensitive ears in China

@ Tristan I tend to concure

And besides Angry Angel always seems like the perfect gentelman to me, so what have I missed

Well, IMO, its too early to start commenting on what LFS has or doesn't have. I agree with keithano about the idea that all these things should be in the final product. Only reason why you notice that kind of thing now is because (thanks to the devs ) are getting the unfinished product so that us, as a community, can test it and suggest improvements (physics, multiplayer code, program bugs) and also to listen to our ideas on what could be added to the game. With other games like GTR2 and rFactor, they ARE the finished product which is why perhaps they have all those gauges and advanced status displayers of what the car is doing.

So just be patient till S3 comes out and then maybe comment on whats missing then. Patience is the key here and then, enjoy LFS as it for now . I mean, think about it, already LFS has the best physics compared to other sims in the market and the devs are still further studying and further developing the physics. So patience is the key .

Quote from tristancliffe :

Hmmm, I'd say 30 - 40% inaccurate at the moment.

oO way more than i expected

Quote :

but struggle when the wheels are being steering, or the nose is raising/lowering on bumps and on the brakes/power.

but how long do those transient phases really last until the aero settles in a steady state with x degrees of dive or n degrees of steering ?

Quote :

The only thing I tend to notice is the big autocross barriers, occasional building clipping, and moving inside someones car when they lag. I rarely see flying cars whilst racing. Maybe I'm just lucky

maybe you really are ive seen some really strange collisions from time to time

Quote from Resound :

The gentle taps and rubbing are the awkward ones because a little lag can cause overlap and them the physics engine has to resolve that. That's hard. A high velocity impact is much easier to predict and solve for.

i know that doesnt make it any less of an issue though

Quote from faster111 :

mmm dev how about a daliy dairy?

I found this at www.scawensdiary.com (the link seems to be dead now...)

Quote :

Friday June 1st:

Up at the crack of noon again, damn, run out of aspirins - will have to take it easy on the Gin until I can get to Tescos.
Read the forum... had just about enough of those whinging b*st*rds.
Will try to get a little coding in before the snooker comes on the telly...

Saturday June 2nd:

Phoned the Police again to see if they've tracked down Eric yet... no luck though .. oh well, maybe I can get someone from the high school on work experience to do some new content for S3...

Sunday June 3rd:

Vic phoned, his cousin is on holiday, so they're going to the Dam for a couple of days to get wrecked - do I want to come?

Hell yeah I've had LFS up to here !!!
I'll just spin some crap about incompatibility and switch on the Scawen Bot... that always works.

Now, where did I put that spliff ?
...

I was shocked an horrified

Quote from col :

I found this at www.scawensdiary.com (the link seems to be dead now...)
I was shocked an horrified

:clapclap:

Quote from tristancliffe :

Scawen has acknowledged a few bugs in the collision detection, so I think it'll be reduced soon.

Recently? If yes a link please?

Soro, as you'll see in my attachment you've earned yourself entry in an elite club thanks to your persistence in starting this kind of thread, enjoy your stay

Quote :

Scawen, you know I'm not bashing you, I really respect you and your work and trully love this game, but after watch for so long time your enforcement in peripheral things that the most are not really necessary, I start concerning if the "part that matters" of the game is just what we see right now.

Have you never ever used buggy software? You clearly don't appreciate the need to iron out bugs as early as possible. Personally I wouldn't have said increasing grid sizes, false starts and differentials are worthless things in a racing sim

Quote :

What is S3 in the end?

I really hope Scawen doesn't know exactly what is planned for S3, hopefully LFS will continue to dynamically evolve rather than just continue to go down a rigid path adding features and content that are irrelevant for its customer base.

Quote :

I found this at www.scawensdiary.com (the link seems to be dead now...)

Brilliant

Quote from GeneralElectric :

@ joen, you're starting to sound like angry angel, no need for the language imo

What about my language? I thought I was being quite mellow actually.
And do you mean this forum's the_angry_angel? I don't picture him as an offensive persion at all

Quote from GeneralElectric :

I just don't care for it, it makes you look immature and silly, one must make an effort to make more cognitive statements to show at least you may made half an effort to express youself mouthing off is silly.

I do make an effort most of the time, but you wouldn't know that since you've been here for 5 days (right?)
Some people just seem to be immune to reasoning, so maybe a different approach is needed. I actually started writing a more comprehensive motivation but I chose not to finish it, as I thought it would be useless and OT anyway.

In any case, the way I choose to express myself on any occasion is my own decision and responsibility. As long as I don't violate any rules of course or deliberately hurt/offend anyone. If anyone feels offended about anything I said, you know how to pm me/notify a mod. So there's really no need to notify me that you don't care for my choice of words, as I simply don't care about that.
No offense, just my opinion.

And this would be the end of this afaic.

If anyone's feeling nostalgic: click

@joen: I couldn't find anything offensive in your post, so I have no idea what GE is talking about...

Quote from Burnzoire :

It either comes down to the size of the dev team (or lack thereof), or that Scawen simply does not with to commit to anything by giving us hints on his plans for the future of LFS. Personally, I think this is a mistake...

I don't know. I think it's a very good idea. There have been a few things that have been in LFS in the past that are no longer there because they didn't pan out as being in sync with the sim's philosophy, or because the masses dismissed them as unrealistic or uneeded. I can't remember anything in particular, but I think I remember it like that. Maybe someone can help me with an example.

The end result is, that if you announce or plan for something, you're kinda stuck with it for eternity. Whether it's good or not.

Quote from AndroidXP :

If anyone's feeling nostalgic: click

Nice.

Quote from AndroidXP :

If anyone's feeling nostalgic: click

Hahahaha, uberpwnage!!! Soro, as I said already: go back to start, learn about LFS Development again, and then come back. Basically Everything you posted has been answered, is clear etc. etc. And Scawen wont give detailed infos on what will be in etc., cause that simply can change. Like a Patch release date can change too.