@Jakg: Newsflash, the FXO is still the lightest of the TBO cars by quite a bit.
Mass (driver in, no fuel, in kg)
XRT: 1313
RB4: 1298
FXO: 1280
Mass (driver in, no fuel, in kg)
XRT: 1313
RB4: 1298
FXO: 1280
Ooooooh.
Was that taken online or in single player? remember in SP it doesn't apply ballast
Was that taken online or in single player? remember in SP it doesn't apply ballast
You think I'm a moron? Of course it was in MP.
Oh right & how much time do you spend hotlapping/playing offline?
It's ok,not to happy that XRT is fastest,I like the FXO alot
this is exactly how the RB4drivers got it for so long. i have never liked the FXO tho
This is what the FXO needs though, it can get miles better exit speed than the XRT so when it pulled away just as fast the FXO was unbeatable, but now you actually have to be able to drive the car fast to be able to overtake someone. 
Not just sit behind get a slightlybetter exit and haul past.
Maybe try the XRT, needs more skill and practice but in the end is much more fun and now the FWD grandaddys like AL have some RWD competition.
Not just sit behind get a slightlybetter exit and haul past.Maybe try the XRT, needs more skill and practice but in the end is much more fun and now the FWD grandaddys like AL have some RWD competition.
grandwha...... surely you mean grandmasta !
Bawbag , you seen seen this , id appreciate your views http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=25805
And jack 3500 laps is alots , but i have 5000+ on just one track in FXO
The FXO like ajp71 says , is godlike round corners and under braking, this is where you really need to push hardest (not on throttle btw )
Example take blackwood , i can keep up and beat XRT`s you gotta time your attacks v carefully, so far with restriction limit ive managed i think 1.23.9x , should be hitting mid to low 24 if your driving well. (no draft)
Bawbag , you seen seen this , id appreciate your views http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=25805
And jack 3500 laps is alots , but i have 5000+ on just one track in FXO
The FXO like ajp71 says , is godlike round corners and under braking, this is where you really need to push hardest (not on throttle btw )
Example take blackwood , i can keep up and beat XRT`s you gotta time your attacks v carefully, so far with restriction limit ive managed i think 1.23.9x , should be hitting mid to low 24 if your driving well. (no draft)
OT: shame the STCC broadcasts are done, i think they'd be even more interesting now 
Yup, and it's ironic that i've had it so good for so long and yet now i'm bitching
The best i've got with the FXO is 1:24.5 (i think) with a few laps, so i need yet more practice. M'eh, with looks like that i aint complaining.
WTH track did you do 5000 times?! I thought i'd done a lot at SO1 (700+ Laps) You've done more practice on one track than i have for almost a year of the STCC!
Well the league is still going, and to be fair the racing is still stratified between the FXO's, XRT's and RB4's, although the FXO and XRT's were having some nice battles.
FXO should be slowest, it's the easiest car.
I have to agree with Jakg on this one. The FXO is a bit too slow now. Sure you can win, but you really need to be a good driver and push real hard compared to XRT and RB4. Before X FXO had a huge advantage on braking zones and corners, because of less weight and it also accelerated faster. It lost on top speed compared to the others, but that doesn't matter much so it dominated. Now on the hand it has even less power (top speed) and more weight (worse cornering). Now you need to be perfect on the corner to even have a acceleration competition on the straigth and even then XRTs and RB4s have much more speed at the end of the straigth and go whizzing by.
Forbin pointed out earlier with added weight it is still lighter than the XRT and RB4.
Yea maybe the FXO is slower than fast guys in the XRT and RB4, but the thing is the FXO is so easy to drive fast and take the best line, the XRT and RB4 is not but they still have to have good lines to, you know.
Yea maybe the FXO is slower than fast guys in the XRT and RB4, but the thing is the FXO is so easy to drive fast and take the best line, the XRT and RB4 is not but they still have to have good lines to, you know.
Well, FXO needs good lines too. I agree it's harder to get it totally out of control, but you still can't just thrash it around, hammer the throttle and be fast.
Imo it needs a teeny weeny adjustment to make it just right. Not much or it will start dominating again, but a little bit so it doesn't get stomped.
Yup, i've just been doing more racing in it and i think your right, it's more consistent and you can gain places just by not going off track - but you don't get this in a league situation, as most are "well-versed" in their car
Yup, narrow up the tyres and remove the intake restriction / some weight - then it gets lower cornering speeds (keeps it in line) and on the straights isn't left for dust.
It's not as bad as i thought (either that or i was racing against some n00bs tonight - sorry, i mean Niko! :P), but the situation can still be improved. Of course the gap is nowhere near where it used to be.
A slightly happier FXO whore,
Jakg
From my patch X experience the FXO is still dominant. The first 5+ finishing cars are usually FXO's... and when driving one myself I find it so damn quick in the corners I have to often brake to avoid hitting the XRT/Rb4 in front. The other cars still hold their own on the straights, however. It requires an early draft to be able to pass them - you won't catch them unless you're on their bumper on the corner exit.
One big disadvantage the FXO has is the start - it just spins and spins it's wheels and you'll spend the entire race making up those positions you've lost (though i'm sure you could tweak the set to improve it).
In conclusion - the FXO is still faster, but it doesn't dominate anymore. All rejoice at three makes of TBO fighting toe to toe!
One big disadvantage the FXO has is the start - it just spins and spins it's wheels and you'll spend the entire race making up those positions you've lost (though i'm sure you could tweak the set to improve it).
In conclusion - the FXO is still faster, but it doesn't dominate anymore. All rejoice at three makes of TBO fighting toe to toe!
As much as the handicap system has done for balancing the TBOs, the REAL fundamental problem is still more physics based than anything else. Ideally, all TBOs should have their turbo boost behavior and engine powerbands fixed as this in itself would benefit the RWD and 4WD cars particularly well due to their superior traction, reducing the FXO domination syndrome. Power curves should also be better tweaked for each drivetrain. The FXO would be better of with a peaky engine since front tire smoking via excess torque isn't the best of ideas. The XRT should emphasize on smoothness, with good midrange and excellent top end, redlining at 7500rpm and a limiter at 7800rpm to allow some limited over-revving. The RB4 should get a very strong midrange and good (but not exactly XRT level) top end, making power at say 6500rpm instead of a ridiculously low 6000rpm whilst having a 7000rpm or so redline and of course a cutoff at say 7500rpm.
Then the RB4 and XRT could use a slight power increase (if required) to compensate for thier comparatively greater weight than the FXO, bringing power to weight ratios to a more level plane without unnecessarily weighing down the FXO and wrecking havoc with things such as tire wear. We should be trying to level the playing field via improved physics and speeding up the slower cars just enough to keep things reasonably fair.
As for the tire issue, there are 2 ways to deal with this. One is to simply narrow the FXO's tires, but if there's one thing great about the FXO is its ability to go fast consistently without burning front tires ridiculously fast and absolutely crippling it simply because of FWD. This I actually applaud the developers for having the foresight to keep the FWD car enough tire to compete hard and well without ridiculously bad front tire life/wear. The unfortunate problem is that they simply made the RB4 and XRT a bit too slow compared to the FXO. As some here have already observed, the FXO hasn't quite given up its tire advantage despite of increased weight since it still had more tire power mass, leading to superior entry and mid corner speed. These are production car based track vehicles and aren't exactly at risk of going ridiculously fast, so to slow the fast car down solution isn't exactly desirable.
Tires are some of the most complicated things an automotive engineers ever has to face in terms of behavioral complexity and the problem with narrowing the FXO tires is actually quite complicated and could easily end with FXO guys being unfairly punished. Firstly there's the excessive tire wear issue. And contrary to what some would say here, a narrower tire package WILL change handling balance. More understeer and more contact patch pressure could really cripple the FXO to ridiculous levels. Instead, a slight upgrade of the other 2 cars could possibly bring cornering abilities closer to overall equivalence. For instance, the current RB4 has 215mm wide tires at all 4 corners. A slight increase to say 225mm wide tires isn't exactly unrealistic nor unreasonably and would tweak performance closer to FXO levels. Similar idea for the XRT tires too.
Remember, it's temporary balancing. If the physics are closer to completion and car performance tweaked well, we shouldn't need intake restrictors much (if at all) and weight handicaps would be more along the lines of 0-25kg then say the brick like 80kg for the FZR in the GTR class. Remember, the object is reasonably fair racing, not about getting back at the previously over dominant car by crippling it a lot and indulging in revenge.
Finally, if the FXO wasn't slowed down but instead the other 2 cars sped up JUST enough, it would be possible to generate WRs for each car in unrestricted form without the need to reset WRs as the slower cars go a bit faster whilst the FXO remains relatively level. All done with cars that are extremely close weight and power wise to what we actually drive online.
Then the RB4 and XRT could use a slight power increase (if required) to compensate for thier comparatively greater weight than the FXO, bringing power to weight ratios to a more level plane without unnecessarily weighing down the FXO and wrecking havoc with things such as tire wear. We should be trying to level the playing field via improved physics and speeding up the slower cars just enough to keep things reasonably fair.
As for the tire issue, there are 2 ways to deal with this. One is to simply narrow the FXO's tires, but if there's one thing great about the FXO is its ability to go fast consistently without burning front tires ridiculously fast and absolutely crippling it simply because of FWD. This I actually applaud the developers for having the foresight to keep the FWD car enough tire to compete hard and well without ridiculously bad front tire life/wear. The unfortunate problem is that they simply made the RB4 and XRT a bit too slow compared to the FXO. As some here have already observed, the FXO hasn't quite given up its tire advantage despite of increased weight since it still had more tire power mass, leading to superior entry and mid corner speed. These are production car based track vehicles and aren't exactly at risk of going ridiculously fast, so to slow the fast car down solution isn't exactly desirable.
Tires are some of the most complicated things an automotive engineers ever has to face in terms of behavioral complexity and the problem with narrowing the FXO tires is actually quite complicated and could easily end with FXO guys being unfairly punished. Firstly there's the excessive tire wear issue. And contrary to what some would say here, a narrower tire package WILL change handling balance. More understeer and more contact patch pressure could really cripple the FXO to ridiculous levels. Instead, a slight upgrade of the other 2 cars could possibly bring cornering abilities closer to overall equivalence. For instance, the current RB4 has 215mm wide tires at all 4 corners. A slight increase to say 225mm wide tires isn't exactly unrealistic nor unreasonably and would tweak performance closer to FXO levels. Similar idea for the XRT tires too.
Remember, it's temporary balancing. If the physics are closer to completion and car performance tweaked well, we shouldn't need intake restrictors much (if at all) and weight handicaps would be more along the lines of 0-25kg then say the brick like 80kg for the FZR in the GTR class. Remember, the object is reasonably fair racing, not about getting back at the previously over dominant car by crippling it a lot and indulging in revenge.
Finally, if the FXO wasn't slowed down but instead the other 2 cars sped up JUST enough, it would be possible to generate WRs for each car in unrestricted form without the need to reset WRs as the slower cars go a bit faster whilst the FXO remains relatively level. All done with cars that are extremely close weight and power wise to what we actually drive online.
+1
Anyone thought of create a sort of results database, where TBO & GTR races can list there results & track and distance?
Obviously any one race of track/distance/drivers won't tell us if the balance is close, but it could be helpful in realizing trends if there are any.
I imagine the usage stats on pub servers like CTRA and Cone Dodgers combine with results from series races like BOTT, MoE, IGTC could run a fairly wide gamut of performance data.
Obviously any one race of track/distance/drivers won't tell us if the balance is close, but it could be helpful in realizing trends if there are any.
I imagine the usage stats on pub servers like CTRA and Cone Dodgers combine with results from series races like BOTT, MoE, IGTC could run a fairly wide gamut of performance data.
@ Jamexing, agreed. This is a TBO thread, but I had the same thoughts as to boosting the FXR/XRR performance to match FZR rather than slow FZR. Also the combo of weight/intake I believe works slightly better than the weight only balance of the FZR. Time shall tell.
Couldnt tell the difference in either car TBH
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New FXO & XRT
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FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG